better colors from medium and large format...why?

haringharing Registered Users Posts: 281 Major grins
edited May 6, 2011 in Cameras
Why is it that the color produced by the medium and large format cameras are better than colors produced by 35mm (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. DSLR) cameras?

I don't think it is only that the digital back or the medium or large format film they are using. It also has to do with the size of the film and the digital back... Why are colors nicer, cleaner if they are recorded on a medium, large format media...? I am sure you know it better...Can anybody explain it briefly?

Comments

  • studio1972studio1972 Registered Users Posts: 249 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    What do you mean by better/nicer/cleaner colours? What makes you think they are better/nicer/cleaner on a medium format camera?
  • haringharing Registered Users Posts: 281 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    Colors are real on MF camera. On 35mm colors tend to be a little unnatural sometimes. Especially, blues...
  • run_kmcrun_kmc Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    Are you talking about medium format digital vs. full frame digital?

    I've seen a handful of RAW files from MF digital backs, and I've seen plenty of RAW files from various dSLRs. I didn't notice color fidelity as being an issue.
  • haringharing Registered Users Posts: 281 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    run_kmc wrote: »
    Are you talking about medium format digital vs. full frame digital?

    I've seen a handful of RAW files from MF digital backs, and I've seen plenty of RAW files from various dSLRs. I didn't notice color fidelity as being an issue.

    Compare the latest FF 35mm images and the latest MF (medium format) images. The difference is huge.
    All (TOP) fashion photographers use MF. There must be a reason why Hasselblad, Contax, etc. can charge $30-40.000 for a basic setup....:):):)
  • ruttrutt Registered Users Posts: 6,511 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    Because they can?
    If not now, when?
  • run_kmcrun_kmc Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    I think post processing might have everything to do with this.
  • ruttrutt Registered Users Posts: 6,511 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    Professional post vs. the alternatives is a huge difference.
    If not now, when?
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited January 22, 2011
    Medium and large format backs do tend to offer smoother color gradations partly because of the larger photosites and/or greater numbers of photosites.

    A larger format also allows better, as in more efficient, anti-alias (AA) filtration. The efficiency is not so much light efficiency but how the AA filter works, and it tends to work better in a larger format.

    Unfortunately the larger formats tend not to be tuned for high-ISO work so they are not universally better. Factoring in the costs of ownership and the larger sensor backs tend to be more specialized and only really make economic sense for high-volume, or high-end markets in portraiture, glamour, fashion, etc.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • JimKarczewskiJimKarczewski Registered Users Posts: 969 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    Many MF back don't have AA filters.. Plus nobody has mentioned the pixel depth. 12 bit raws vs 16 bit raws may not say a lot, but it does make a difference...
  • JimKarczewskiJimKarczewski Registered Users Posts: 969 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2011
    FYI, this is a review for the Digital Ebony camera I guess that uses MF backs... Read about pixel dept and dynamic range.

    And correction I was wrong.. MF backs are 14 bit (I thought there were some that shot with a 16 bit processor.) Still 12 bit = 4096 unique colors per pixel, 14 bit = 16,000 (something, I rounded.) so 4x the color range per pixel.
  • studio1972studio1972 Registered Users Posts: 249 Major grins
    edited January 24, 2011
    FYI, this is a review for the Digital Ebony camera I guess that uses MF backs... Read about pixel dept and dynamic range.

    And correction I was wrong.. MF backs are 14 bit (I thought there were some that shot with a 16 bit processor.) Still 12 bit = 4096 unique colors per pixel, 14 bit = 16,000 (something, I rounded.) so 4x the color range per pixel.

    I thought full frame cameras such as the 5DII had 14bit Raw files. Even if they didn't, I don't believe that you could see a difference in the image unless you were doing some extreme post processing.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited January 24, 2011
    studio1972 wrote: »
    I thought full frame cameras such as the 5DII had 14bit Raw files. Even if they didn't, I don't believe that you could see a difference in the image unless you were doing some extreme post processing.

    Part of the problem with "14 bit" files is that it is only part of the solution for enhanced color definition. Unless you have extremely capable imagers, LNA section, A/D converters, image processor, etc., the 14 bit files may not contain any more image data than 12 bit files.

    Medium format and large format imagers/backs tend to have better "everything" in terms of image processing so they often do have better image data output, but not always and not under every situation.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • KennyWKennyW Registered Users Posts: 8 Beginner grinner
    edited January 24, 2011
    haring wrote: »
    Why is it that the color produced by the medium and large format cameras are better than colors produced by 35mm (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. DSLR) cameras?

    I don't think it is only that the digital back or the medium or large format film they are using. It also has to do with the size of the film and the digital back... Why are colors nicer, cleaner if they are recorded on a medium, large format media...? I am sure you know it better...Can anybody explain it briefly?

    I do think that the pixel quality matters. In full-frame DSLRs, as pixel density increases pixel quality is traded off in order to record more details. MF back can still maintain the pixel quality while with 40 up mega pixels for the details, that is, MF is with more details (mega pixels) and better per pixel quality.

    I think ISO performance could be a problem because CCD sensor is usually used instead of CMOS sensor for digital backs. The CMOS technology is quite mature in terms of ISO performance while the CCD technology may still wait for a breakthrough to boost up its ISO capability. Or alternatively, CMOS fabrication technology might be boosted up for the producing of medium to large format backs. Or perhaps the fabrication technology is ready in Canon or Sony, they just don't want the medium and large format backs to impact their DSLR business for the time being, who knows.
  • billythekbillythek Registered Users Posts: 104 Major grins
    edited January 25, 2011
    studio1972 wrote: »
    I thought full frame cameras such as the 5DII had 14bit Raw files. Even if they didn't, I don't believe that you could see a difference in the image unless you were doing some extreme post processing.

    The 5D2 does have 14 bits, at least according to the manual. Can't say if the 14 bits are as good as the 14 bits from other 14 bit cameras, but there are the same number of them.
    - Bill
  • JimKarczewskiJimKarczewski Registered Users Posts: 969 Major grins
    edited January 25, 2011
    Well, as mentioned too.. Pixel sites are larger on MF. As you compact those sensors you have to get more and more out of less space. I mean, 21MP out of a 35mm size area is a hell of a lot!
  • KennyWKennyW Registered Users Posts: 8 Beginner grinner
    edited January 25, 2011
    Moreovoer, I heard that the color of CCD sensors differs abit from that of the CMOS sensor. So you might feel the color is "better" when CCD sensors are used.
  • ThatCanonGuyThatCanonGuy Registered Users Posts: 1,778 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    I know the D3x does 14-bit raws. I'd assume all/most of FF cams do.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited January 26, 2011
    I know the D3x does 14-bit raws. I'd assume all/most of FF cams do.

    I believe that the Nikon D700 will record RAW files in either 12 bit or 14 bit depth and the 12 bit files still process to very high quality images.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    I believe that the Nikon D700 will record RAW files in either 12 bit or 14 bit depth and the 12 bit files still process to very high quality images.

    It does! And They do!
    tom wise
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    haring wrote: »
    Why is it that the color produced by the medium and large format cameras are better than colors produced by 35mm (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. DSLR) cameras?

    I don't think it is only that the digital back or the medium or large format film they are using. It also has to do with the size of the film and the digital back... Why are colors nicer, cleaner if they are recorded on a medium, large format media...? I am sure you know it better...Can anybody explain it briefly?

    Let's see some side-by-side examples? ear.gif
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    Most dSLRs above $1000 have 14 bit color. Just out of curiosity, I wanted to see how fine a color resolution the eye could see, so I set up a test on a good monitor where a number of squares were placed on the screen, one of which actually had the color separated by a single increment (i.e., 1 part in 256) centered around a value of 128. I did these for each of RGB, and asked people to point to the square that had the slight difference. For red and blue, no one (including myself when I was tested) could tell. For green, I could see the difference, as could my son, but no one else could.

    In my experience, the value of 14 bit color depth comes into play when the dynamic range is expanded, and shallow gradients are increased. I see this as intensity contours that show up as what were once close values for intensity get pulled farther apart. With more bits of color depth, gradients are smoother.
  • ProfessionalProfessional Registered Users Posts: 278 Major grins
    edited May 6, 2011
    Why i read more and more posts or articles about comparing MF to 35mm??? really i laugh aloud why there people want to see comparison between iPhone or P&S against MF or even well-scanned LF, so are we dreaming about having the best camera with highest mp and 16-20 bit color and huge DR for about $1000-2000???
    I use digital MF since 2009 and started to shoot film by 2010, i always see there is something i can't tell with MF film or digital over 35mm, but when i just have normal shot of 35mm and normal shot of MF/LF and print them at 4x6 to A3 i really don't see any are really amazing or which is which, but looking at well done MF against well done 35mm and printed at say A3 minimum and up, MF/LF win always regarding of color/sharpness/DR/tones.
  • ProfessionalProfessional Registered Users Posts: 278 Major grins
    edited May 6, 2011
    Forgot to say that i did few comparison tests even not that perfectly done with my H3DII[before, i traded-in] and H4D[current] against my 1DsIII [the only highest best 35mm DSLR i have], believe it or not, the Hasseblad win always for sharpness and colors, even when i tested my H4D at ISO 800 against my 1Ds3 ISO 800, the 1Ds3 won as clarity but never won as colors and sharpness and DR, so which is more important for you, the shapness+colors+DR or cleaner high ISO???
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