Elivia

NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
edited January 27, 2011 in People
Comments welcome.:thumb




1168455275_TeRM6-L.jpg










Canon 40D, 24-105mm f4L

Neil
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Comments

  • jirojiro Registered Users Posts: 1,865 Major grins
    edited January 25, 2011
    Very nice, Neil. thumb.gif Just a suggestion though, since she's a minor, I think it would make the image 'better' if you soften her skin a little bit. Again, just a suggestion. :D
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  • reyvee61reyvee61 Registered Users Posts: 1,877 Major grins
    edited January 25, 2011
    Excellent!
    Has that Les Misérables feel.....
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    jiro wrote: »
    Very nice, Neil. thumb.gif Just a suggestion though, since she's a minor, I think it would make the image 'better' if you soften her skin a little bit. Again, just a suggestion. :D

    Much appreciate your interest jiro!

    I am a little puzzled by your suggestion to soften the skin, why you make a connection between that and age. I think it is obvious that my decision not to soften the skin-remove marks is a conscious one. I made that choice partly as a protest against the cosmetic lie, but also because I personally cannot connect with the person in the photo if they have a plastic glaze stuck to their face, and again personally I am attracted by skin texture and markings. Elivia is a real person, and I want her reality in the photo. That to me is more beautiful than an imposition of an artificial perfection.

    I am talking portraits here, not fashion or glamour, or theatricals or pretending, where different aesthetics operate.

    But please elaborate on your suggestion, I am genuinely interested to hear your point of view.

    Neil
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  • jirojiro Registered Users Posts: 1,865 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    Thanks, Neil. I hope I did not offend you by my suggestion.

    I understand your line of thought, as I go with it, too. I just notice that normally, by 'nature', young people (below 12 or 13) still exhibits this good skin texture. Not plasticky (that can easily be done using photoshop) but really with that smooth texture that we can usually see. That is the reason why I commented to introduce a tinny, winny, small amount of softness to the skin alone. When I look at the shaded area on her face, I tend to gaze my eyes more on those areas rather than being pinned directly to her eyes. I don't know, must be because of the characteristic of the skin and the type of post-processing done or what, but I noticed that whenever I look at her. I am only relying all of this based on how I tend to view your image, nothing else.

    If you would go back to my original comment, I commented that I do like your post-processing. It is certainly unique. As you have said, you want to bring out all the naturalness of her on the image and that is very fine. I respect that. I only gave a small comment of my opinion on the image. That's all. Thanks.
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    jiro wrote: »
    Thanks, Neil. I hope I did not offend you by my suggestion.

    I understand your line of thought, as I go with it, too. I just notice that normally, by 'nature', young people (below 12 or 13) still exhibits this good skin texture. Not plasticky (that can easily be done using photoshop) but really with that smooth texture that we can usually see. That is the reason why I commented to introduce a tinny, winny, small amount of softness to the skin alone. When I look at the shaded area on her face, I tend to gaze my eyes more on those areas rather than being pinned directly to her eyes. I don't know, must be because of the characteristic of the skin and the type of post-processing done or what, but I noticed that whenever I look at her. I am only relying all of this based on how I tend to view your image, nothing else.

    If you would go back to my original comment, I commented that I do like your post-processing. It is certainly unique. As you have said, you want to bring out all the naturalness of her on the image and that is very fine. I respect that. I only gave a small comment of my opinion on the image. That's all. Thanks.

    No problem jiro, I welcome your feedback and I take it seriously!thumb.gif

    I am genuinely interested in how you see this portrait. I understand completely what you are saying, and in fact I would say the same about the skin marks demanding attention, taking attention. I think they should, because something is revealed of this person with them there out in the open which would be lost to us if they were covered. For me it indicates a connection she has with the grit of the world, the grittiness that is within her, that she is involved with grittier things than her own cosmetic score.

    After you see those marks, and then you look in the eye, the effect of that eye, and so of the whole face, is different than if you had not been forced to see the skin marks! That's why I value them forcing themselves on our attention.:D

    But I will not force my preferences on you!thumb.gif

    Neil
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  • jirojiro Registered Users Posts: 1,865 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    thumb.gif:D
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    Neil, I think it's fair to say there's quite a bit between the plastic look (which I also despite regardless of whether it's portraits or fashion/beauty), and just evening things out a little to create a more balanced shot (rather than alter the reality of the person). I love her freckles, but there's a slight "orange peel" texture on the camera left side of her nose which might benefit from a bit of smoothing. Not a lot! Just a bit. I think it's so noticeable because of the bright highlight on her right cheek which by definition gives the illusion of perfectly smooth skin; the contrast between the two sides therefore draws more attention to the slightly un-smooth skin on her other cheek. Rather than seeming like a "study in texture" (as some unretouched shots are clearly intended), it is slightly unbalanced.

    Also, it's clear that this is not a wholly unretouched "natural" street-style candid, but a *portrait*. You've dodged and burned her (beautiful and expressive) eyes, probably cropped in from the original shot, processed it in a sepia tone... therefore, expectations (like it or not) jump on the disjunct between the two sides of her face.

    I hasten to add these are SERIOUSLY nits about what is a lovely, lovely shot by anybody's measure. This series is really excellent - is she as much of a personality character as shines through in the photos? Really a nice series thumb.gif
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  • jpcjpc Registered Users Posts: 840 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    I think this is great and I very much like the freckles.
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  • TenThirteenTenThirteen Registered Users Posts: 488 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    I think this shot is stunning, and while I get Diva's suggestion about the bridge of the nose, I for some strange reason feel the photo wouldn't draw me in as much without all the imperfections catching my eye making me observe even more in depth. I think the imperfections make it perfect :-)

    If I were you this would be going in a frame stat :-)
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    TenThirteen wrote: »
    I for some strange reason feel the photo wouldn't draw me in as much without all the imperfections catching my eye making me observe even more in depth.

    That's an excellent point thumb.gif

    I actually only made the comments I did in response to the first suggestion regarding skin smoothing, and the subsequent discussion - I think it's a very minor point in regard to this shot, and the photo works beautifully without any further alterations (as I'm sure it would with). It's a fabulous picture which has an almost Mona Lisa-like fascination in the way her intensity of expression draws you in.
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  • QarikQarik Registered Users Posts: 4,959 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    perfect little shot..don't change a thing.
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  • briandelionbriandelion Registered Users Posts: 512 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    Excellent capture Neil. I love your duotone treatment.
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    divamum wrote: »
    Neil, I think it's fair to say there's quite a bit between the plastic look (which I also despite regardless of whether it's portraits or fashion/beauty), and just evening things out a little to create a more balanced shot (rather than alter the reality of the person). I love her freckles, but there's a slight "orange peel" texture on the camera left side of her nose which might benefit from a bit of smoothing. Not a lot! Just a bit. I think it's so noticeable because of the bright highlight on her right cheek which by definition gives the illusion of perfectly smooth skin; the contrast between the two sides therefore draws more attention to the slightly un-smooth skin on her other cheek. Rather than seeming like a "study in texture" (as some unretouched shots are clearly intended), it is slightly unbalanced.

    Also, it's clear that this is not a wholly unretouched "natural" street-style candid, but a *portrait*. You've dodged and burned her (beautiful and expressive) eyes, probably cropped in from the original shot, processed it in a sepia tone... therefore, expectations (like it or not) jump on the disjunct between the two sides of her face.

    I hasten to add these are SERIOUSLY nits about what is a lovely, lovely shot by anybody's measure. This series is really excellent - is she as much of a personality character as shines through in the photos? Really a nice series thumb.gif

    Dm you can be very persuasive!!:D You certainly made me look again with different eyes at this. That is valuable crit! Thanksthumb.gif

    Putting what you say with jiro's comments, it's evolving this way for me, that there are a few things to reconcile, or balance, to use your description. Among them, first, the effect of the particular lighting situation and my subsequent interpretation of the image. This was shot outdoors in open shade on a very bright late afternoon (it's full summer here). This kind of light together with the typically graphic rendering from digital results in even skin pores being clearly defined. After processing, some of the tone gradients in the skin marks took on a slight 3D effect, which was not intended. I can see that now, and it makes sense to correct it. So this has shown me that the kind of light which is producing the image is going to leave its signature in the image, and bright daylight is very different to even the blastingest of strobes!

    Second, as you point out, there is appropriate and inappropriate. As I have described, this image came with a few inbuilt challenges, which now I am better forewarned about and able to minimise in similar circumstances in the future. The highlights were pushed, and post processing can often push them even more. Yet I wanted the rawness of that look. So I am also faced with reconciling and balancing something which is good with something which is "too" good!

    Thanks again, dm, for your painstaking comments!

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    reyvee61 wrote: »
    Excellent!
    Has that Les Misérables feel.....

    Rey, thanks for your comment! Yes, I can see that look in it now you mention it!thumb.gif

    Neil
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    jpc wrote: »
    I think this is great and I very much like the freckles.

    :D I love freckles!

    Thanks for your kind words jpc!

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    TenThirteen wrote: »
    I think this shot is stunning, and while I get Diva's suggestion about the bridge of the nose, I for some strange reason feel the photo wouldn't draw me in as much without all the imperfections catching my eye making me observe even more in depth. I think the imperfections make it perfect :-)

    If I were you this would be going in a frame stat :-)

    I'm so pleased you like this shot TenThirteen, thanks for letting me know!

    I'm especially grateful to get the benefit of a female-eye-point-of-view on an image of a girl made by a male! Very interesting!

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    Qarik wrote: »
    perfect little shot..don't change a thing.

    Qarik, thanks for your kind comment!

    Neil
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    briandelion wrote: »
    Excellent capture Neil. I love your duotone treatment.

    Thanks for your kind words briandelion! Yes, for me the treatment was a happy outcome which "discovered " the image for me!

    Neil
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    Following the great discussion, here is a version where I have very conservatively adjusted the skin texture on the CL of the nose. There is a definite though not hitting difference, which maybe doesn't alter the feel which people like -

    1168973732_8mZPh-L.jpg




    Neil
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  • divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited January 26, 2011
    thumb.gif I possibly would have gone even a tiny bit further, although only a little bit. What's interesting is that tiny change made my eye move explore the rest of her face more. It is subtle and possibly nobody but other photographer's would notice (or care!), but it is a difference. Fascinating!
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    divamum wrote: »
    thumb.gif I possibly would have gone even a tiny bit further, although only a little bit. What's interesting is that tiny change made my eye move explore the rest of her face more. It is subtle and possibly nobody but other photographer's would notice (or care!), but it is a difference. Fascinating!

    thumb.gif

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

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  • Darren Troy CDarren Troy C Registered Users Posts: 1,927 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    Beautiful shot!
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  • HackboneHackbone Registered Users Posts: 4,027 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    Neil, I like the second one much better. A touch of pleading warmth comes to mind in mood and look.
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    Darren Troy C wrote: »
    Beautiful shot!

    Very pleased you like it Darren. Thanks for your comment!

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    Hackbone wrote: »
    Neil, I like the second one much better. A touch of pleading warmth comes to mind in mood and look.


    Thanks for the encouragement Charles. Your feedback is much appreciated!

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

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  • bbjonesbbjones Registered Users Posts: 234 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    Great discussion, and interesting comparison, but...

    I like the first one. :D
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  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2011
    bbjones wrote: »
    Great discussion, and interesting comparison, but...

    I like the first one. :D

    :D

    Neil
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