Uhm.... really unsure about this.

Moogle Pepper

I am not sure how to react, though I already sent a response email.

Background story:

A lesbian couple emailed me about shooting their wedding in May. I was ecstatic as this would have been really cool. So I emailed back to tell me about themselves, stories they wished to share. The usual. I get a two liner telling me that they were lesbians. Ok.

I let it sit for now, and after leaving the gym, the next day to head back to work ( I have a day job). I get a call from her mother, which I didn't know till I asked her to tell me again. Truth be told, it is really difficult to hear and understand a phone conversation in a windy corridor. So I told her to email me the details, that way I can read and comprehend what we were just talking about.

Got the email, while working on requests from my day job and put off emailing a response till later and when I did get a chance, I looked it over and thought to myself. I am not so sure about this. Her mother is a wedding planner and I think it would be great to network. I forgot to send a response email to her mom.

A couple days later, I get a call from one of the brides, to talk about this further. Apparently whenever they call or get in contact with me, I am doing something. I don't sit still, so I am always moving. So I asked her, what their budget for this was $----, I told her, "Could you email me telling me more details about yourselves and your wedding?" Since, I still knew nothing of them which didn't bode well with me. I didn't any inspiration from them, and lo and behold their email telling me about themselves was now a 4 sentencer, telling me about what they do for work.

They then asked for a copy of the contract in an email, so, I again let this sit for a day to respond.

Any form of interest vanished and I lacked any inspiration to want to. Which is important for me to want to photograph anyone's wedding. It isn't the hawtness of a couple, how much money they will give me (I will take $100,000 any day!), but the interest and inspiration. Weddings are stressful and being a laid back and anything goes character it has to be something to get me to want to shoot one.

Anyway, I emailed her the following day that, I didn't think that we mixed and that as chemistry between client and photographer is imperative in hyper personal photography business. And so today I get a negative review spread over some sites saying how I am unprofessional and a homophobe.

I sent an email saying

A couple things. I am truly sorry you feel bitter enough to write false reviews. After further thought I did not believe that would have mixed very well. Part of photographing weddings is chemistry between the photographer and couple. I do not appreciate being defamed on false accusations, especially since we were only in the negotiating stage.

So I am sorry to not have responded to your last email, as I do have a day job that I have to take care of. Thirdly being called a homophobe? Come on. Really. That is really silly, and if I was, why would I hang out and drink with gays? That would be rather hypocritical, wouldn't it?

As for your mother, yes, I should have responded to her email. And I had to ask her to repeat what she was saying on the phone because I was walking through a corridor to get back to work at my day job.

So.... now what. I am not sure about this and, to compound this, I got into an accident this morning which makes the day even worse.

Thanks for reading (and commenting) on my vent.

Agnieszka

WOW! Uhm ... wow! Sorry to hear that, Ted! WOWZER!

I'd not try to get into any discussions ... just get your "bottom" out of the whole thing and get somebody to remove that review.

Seriously??? #(*%&

Moogle Pepper

I can totally understand being called unprofessional if I took their money and dropped them a month before their wedding. But I didn't. I told them a week or two after being contacted. And being called a homophobe? Seriously?

Qarik

well you did well to get out early..but you have some responsibility here imo. While I agree to do your best work repoir is needed... but some folks may not want that or understand that concept..just take photos. Barring any other red flags, you should honor that as well. It's your perogative to turn down jobs based on your critieria but what if they had been just a shy/wary couple that needed a photographer?

Moogle Pepper

I think it could be possible that they are shy and wary (but then why such a whacky review, instead of handling it like adults?) couple. If they were such, I wish they would have elaborated that in their emails instead of the short responses that I have got from them.

There is a good lesson to be learned here, I am just not in the right mind to find it.

Foques

I think it was extremely inappropriate of them to spread the review.. Matter of fact, i'd have an attorney write a letter, requiring them to remove the defamation comments or else.. (even if you are not planning on doing anything). But i'm a sue happy kind of person after the last crap that one of the local garage bands pulled on me.

also, I don't think i'd be going in to a detail as to with whom you drink and hang out, it is none of their business.

Qarik

aye..they outed themselves as being uncool..so yeah in this case you were "correct" to have dropped them...but what if you had dropped them and they hadn't made any bad remarks? Then you just dropped a couple that just didn't "inspire" you...again your choice but shy/wary couples need photographers too!

Moogle Pepper

I would have referred them to another photographer so they would still be able to get coverage. I might have waited a couple days as I could figure out a good fit to refer to them. But I can't refer them now, cause then I would be dropping a problem onto someone else that I know.

Qarik

btw ted..WHAT is your day job?

uncreative

maybe my perspective is skewed, but answering calls on your cell phone while on break from your day job, not replying to mom, and delays in email replies to the couple all qualify as 'unprofessional' to me.

the homophobe accusation seems completely out of line, however. i would ask the couple to at least remove that part from their review, and if they won't, contact the admins of the site hosting the reviews and ask the same. I wouldn't get into a online argument with them about whether you are a homophobe or not, i can't see that ending well.

Moogle Pepper

uncreative wrote: »

maybe my perspective is skewed, but answering calls on your cell phone while on break from your day job, not replying to mom, and delays in email replies to the couple all qualify as 'unprofessional' to me.

the homophobe accusation seems completely out of line, however. i would ask the couple to at least remove that part from their review, and if they won't, contact the admins of the site hosting the reviews and ask the same. I wouldn't get into a online argument with them about whether you are a homophobe or not, i can't see that ending well.

I try to respond within a day to people. But I wanted to think about this one more thoroughly, as I had mental flags popping up. After being burned a number of times from potential clients like this before, but whom reacted with more civility. But let me make this more clear, I go to the gym instead of going for lunch as I don't eat a lunch. So when I was done my workout and heading back, I answered the phone. Yes it was unprofessional in not responding to the mom's email regardless of the fact that it wasn't specifically related to said couple's wedding.

I do not see how she can even possible give me a review when we haven't even worked together.

Qarik, I'll pm you my day job.

Matthew Saville

A photographer I was hoping to hire for my own wedding ended up deciding the same thing, but instead of being honest and saying they didn't think the chemistry was right, they told me they simply weren't available on that date. (Since I stalk their blog, I found out that they were in fact sitting at home dinking around with a new flash on my wedding day.)

Ever since then, I've been kinda cold towards the whole "chemistry" excuse. I can totally understand it, from the photographer's perspective, but from the client's perspective it really does hurt. You basically feel like you're not good enough for that photographer, either it's your looks, or your personality, or your budget, or whatever. I know I sure felt dorky, ugly, and poor when I realized I had been turned down.

So on the one hand, I can feel this client's pain. If you turn down a wedding, you have to be ready for risks like this. Especially an "alternative" wedding, you really run the risk of getting into trouble.

On the other hand, you certainly don't deserve to be given a (public) poor review, that's for sure, and I hope you can convince the client to delete / retract any statements that might be highly visible to other clients.

Unfortunately, you already worded things a little coldly in reply to this client; I would have done everything I could have to remain positive and friendly. Instead of your response to them calling you a homophobe, I would have simply said "actually I was VERY EXCITED to photograph a lesbian wedding, I really would like the opportunity some day!" ...and in general, I would have explained to them that chemistry has nothing to with them being a good or bad person, but everything to do with the photographic style the client is looking for, and both of your personalities. Of course you have to praise their own personality a little bit, and be humble about your own. You'd love to take their money and shoot the job, but it would be unfair to them when you know there are better photographers out there for this particular couple.

Etc. etc. etc.

Anyway, better luck tomorrow! Everyone's gotta have sucky days now and then. :-\

heatherfeather

Matthew Saville wrote: »

A photographer I was hoping to hire for my own wedding ended up deciding the same thing, but instead of being honest and saying they didn't think the chemistry was right, they told me they simply weren't available on that date. (Since I stalk their blog, I found out that they were in fact sitting at home dinking around with a new flash on my wedding day.)

Ever since then, I've been kinda cold towards the whole "chemistry" excuse. I can totally understand it, from the photographer's perspective, but from the client's perspective it really does hurt. You basically feel like you're not good enough for that photographer, either it's your looks, or your personality, or your budget, or whatever. I know I sure felt dorky, ugly, and poor when I realized I had been turned down.

So on the one hand, I can feel this client's pain. If you turn down a wedding, you have to be ready for risks like this. Especially an "alternative" wedding, you really run the risk of getting into trouble.

On the other hand, you certainly don't deserve to be given a (public) poor review, that's for sure, and I hope you can convince the client to delete / retract any statements that might be highly visible to other clients.

Unfortunately, you already worded things a little coldly in reply to this client; I would have done everything I could have to remain positive and friendly. Instead of your response to them calling you a homophobe, I would have simply said "actually I was VERY EXCITED to photograph a lesbian wedding, I really would like the opportunity some day!" ...and in general, I would have explained to them that chemistry has nothing to with them being a good or bad person, but everything to do with the photographic style the client is looking for, and both of your personalities. Of course you have to praise their own personality a little bit, and be humble about your own. You'd love to take their money and shoot the job, but it would be unfair to them when you know there are better photographers out there for this particular couple.

Etc. etc. etc.

Anyway, better luck tomorrow! Everyone's gotta have sucky days now and then. :-\

Wow, Matthew... I think this post is my very favorite response I have read from you.... ever. Very professionally explained.

I am a bit in the same boat with Ted, not wanting to hurt someone's feelings but wanting very much not to shoot a certain wedding due to serious concerns about motherOBzilla possibilities... Heres to hoping I book that day before this couple gets back to me.. heehee. At least now I have some ideas cooked up on how to respond.

Moogle Pepper

I should have worded the emails better, or at least in a more warmer and friendly fashion. (lesson found!)

Thanks for the tips, Matt, and everyone for commenting.

aktse

Matthew: perfect response! thumb I couldn't have said it better myself.

I play sports in an adult woman's league and have known numerous lesbian couples, and after spending time with them, I can say that there are many basic rights that I take for granted in which they are still fighting for them -- right to marry, right to adopt kids, equal health care for partners, hospital rights for partners, etc. I've heard stories of commitment ceremonies in which both set of parents refuse to show up, how some of them have been disowned by their parents, how they get taunted, how their kids get bullied on the playground, how some churches won't allow them in, or the slurs that they randomly hear as they cross the street. In CA, we even voted on a proposition to define the definition of marriage with a theme of separate, but equal and how you can not marry someone of the same gender. It passed... more than 50% of Californians believe marriage should only between two different genders. My friends grew up in this environment and through those experiences, are unfortunately reminded on a regular basis that the majority of the world is against them.

I've been always told that you have one chance to make a first impression especially with clients. The poor review is harsh and undeserved, but that's their impression that you gave them by being slower in your response, cold e-mails, etc. They don't understand that you did not want to shoot their wedding due to lack of inspiration since they have been faced with discrimination all of their lives. From their viewpoint, they picked someone to photography their very special day, the person was hesitant and uncomfortable during phone calls, hesitant to return phone calls, and in the end, communicated the photo job was refused. They didn't understand that you did not want to photograph the wedding based on creativity or her bridezilla mother and just assumed that it was based upon discrimination due to past experiences since you never gave them an indication otherwise since most of the population is against the idea of a same sex marriage. They probably just wanted to save someone else from the heartache of getting rejected since there are photographers that will refuse to shoot a same sex marriage.

I'm not saying what they did is right; i just trying to provide background from someone who has seen the damage done by the discrimination.

Take a deep breath... Remember... tomorrow will be a better day.

Moogle Pepper

The more I read through the posts, the more I realize it was largely the lack of a warmer tone and clearer communication; which is my fault. While that does not justify their response, I guess I know what I should fix. At least on my end.

studio1972

This situation seems really strange. Am I right in thinking that you expected them to send you some kind of life story before you would consider photographing them? Maybe it is a cultural thing between the UK and US, but I can't imagine a client ever wanting to do something like that. I might ask them questions like that face to face in an informal way but not via email.

Moogle Pepper

Not a life story, just anything more than being lesbians and their occupations. If they actually lived in nj I would have definitely asked in person.

Tas67

Hi Ted,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience but I truly believe that things work out for the best.

However, I also have a day job but still try my best to treat my clients like gold. I'm not saying that you don't…but it probably would've helped if you were quicker with response to emails instead of being on the move all the time. I know..life is busy but when people are spending a decent amount of money to hire you, they need to know that you're there for them.

I also agree with Sarah….I never ask clients any personal (where/how did you meet, etc) via email. Emails lack tone and tend to be formal. So, I keep my emails friendly and short. If people are interested in booking me, I cut to the chase and ask to meet them for coffee. Then find out what they're like and if there's chemistry.

I would never mention to clients that you have a day job, as that might come off as you not taking your photography or their wedding seriously. For me, I tell my clients that I'm a Wedding Photographer. If they ask if I do that full time, I'm honest and say "No, but that's my goal this year".

I'm sorry that you received such a negative review. Hopefully you can get that removed!

Anyway, take note (but try not to take it too personally), learn, grow and move on.

Moogle Pepper

Yeah making this into a teaching lesson. Even if it does sting.

Sam

WOW! Lots of good advice, and I really like that you, Ted, can accept the criticism and comments as a learning experience. This will improve your business / communication / and over all client perception.

As for telling potential clients the you have a day job, my advice would be to tell the truth. Perhaps word it like " Yes I have a full time job that provides a steady paycheck and benefits for my family, but my real passion is wedding photography!"

Sam

Shima

Tas67 wrote: »

I would never mention to clients that you have a day job, as that might come off as you not taking your photography or their wedding seriously. For me, I tell my clients that I'm a Wedding Photographer. If they ask if I do that full time, I'm honest and say "No, but that's my goal this year".

I tell people up front that I have a day job, but I tell them that's why I like just doing these weddings because I genuinely enjoy them and I tell them about my obsession with getting more and better photography gear and how I only use my wedding gig money (not my day job money) to buy said new gear with as my way of keeping my spending under control. This spurs a lot of good talk about my passion for photography and endless desire to keep my gear the latest and greatest with all the fun toys. So I don't think it's a bad thing to tell someone you have a day job as long as you do it skillfully.

mpriest13

Just out of curiosity how many other photogs respond to a potential clients inquiry with "tell me about yourselves'. I have to be honest I was surprised by that. I kinda like the idea but I usually try to schedule a intro meeting to get to know my prospective client. I have walked away from a few weddings giving the excuse I was already booked. I never thought they could find out otherwise. Yikes!

David_S85

Shima wrote: »

I tell people up front that I have a day job, but I tell them ...

In fact, you have that right in your photo website last time I looked at it, so any prospective client would know that up front.

Matthew Saville

mpriest13 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity how many other photogs respond to a potential clients inquiry with "tell me about yourselves'. I have to be honest I was surprised by that. I kinda like the idea but I usually try to schedule a intro meeting to get to know my prospective client. I have walked away from a few weddings giving the excuse I was already booked. I never thought they could find out otherwise. Yikes!

I would definitely encourage you to be careful. You never know who may have been stalking your work for a year or two, or who may be sensitive / self-conscious. And unfortunately, you never know who may explode with a negative review that seriously harms your business.

Thankfully for the photographer I *tried* to hire, I'm the quiet shy type, so I didn't blow up. But I did feel pretty insulted for a while.

Just last night I attended the OC SMUG where an 18-year wedding photography veteran talked about how he managed to maintain his business for so long, and keep up his prestige, etc. He said that one of the main things was that once or twice a year, he would just suck it up and do business with a "trouble client" (His studio does like 100-200 weddings a year...) It was his philosophy that negative publicity was too much of a risk compared to just a few hours of tongue-biting. That, and also some of the "worst" clients ended up generating some of his largest sales ever, or some of the best referrals ever.

That really had an impact on me; I at least realized that each decision we make can add up and eventually affect the rest of our careers. I'm not saying it's necessary to accept every job that comes our way, I'm just saying that every now and then we might need to bite our tongue and just treat it like business as usual.

Oh and yes, I do sometimes just ask clients to tell me about themselves... Specifically, I just ask what they're into, what they have in mind for their wedding day and the photography of it all, stuff like that. I do also ask if they're free for a consultation, but I think it's important to get the personality ball rolling right away.


Take care,
=Matt=

chrisjohnson

I guess a lesbian couple is very sensitive about wanting to be treated as a normal couple on their wedding day and that is why they were upfront with you. There is no real reason why it should be especially cool to shoot a lesbian wedding.

We are all living in societies that are very conscious of differences in race and sexual orientation - call it racism and homophobia, if you like. Most of us do our best to suppress the thoughts because they make no sense, but we are a long way from not noticing. Recently being gay was a crime and many of us were raised with that thought instilled in us. Maybe your couple wanted a photographer who would not notice their sexual orientation on the big day. Maybe that is what they were hoping for when they contacted you, and maybe what they would have got had communications not been screwed up.

Moogle Pepper

mpriest13 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity how many other photogs respond to a potential clients inquiry with "tell me about yourselves'. I have to be honest I was surprised by that. I kinda like the idea but I usually try to schedule a intro meeting to get to know my prospective client. I have walked away from a few weddings giving the excuse I was already booked. I never thought they could find out otherwise. Yikes!

After a third email correspondence I usually get asked that and I happily answer it. Not only will it give them better information to think whether or not I am suited for them, it is only fair because I asked them initially.

I don't ask for life stories. I just figured because I asked my clients from last year, to tell me about themselves, which they were fine telling me about their background story- how they met, how so and so proposed, and what they liked doing, that I thought 'tell me about yourself' would be fine just as a basic ice breaker.

I am up front when I talk to them that I am shooting weddings part time, because I am not that big of a risk taker to go head on full time right now. Will I go full time in the future? Yes, but right now, I am satiating a couple needs- securing a financial backing that I can use to survive and for marketing, health care and benefits, and... a huuuuuge resource to satiate my still growing curiosity in developmental research [where I work, I have access to so much research it is crazy!].

I'll just be more specific next time, so they don't feel like they have to look at their entire life to tell me.

There is no real reason why it should be especially cool to shoot a lesbian wedding.

I only thought that it was cool because I never shot one before.

sweet caroline

I usually ask prospective wedding clients to tell me a little about their EVENT via e-mail. I ask what they are looking for, what style of wedding they are having, the venue they have chosen, etc. That can tell me a lot about what the wedding will be like. The couple also usually ends up communicating more info about themselves to explain WHY they chose that venue, that style of ceremony, etc. I tell them a bit about myself before we meet.

I have a day job and a family, so things get hectic sometimes. I had a potential portrait client contact me just after Thanksgiving. I replied with requested info. Then, they finally got back to me a week before Christmas when I was out of town, expecting to book an appointment the week leading up to Christmas. I didn't have a chance to respond until after Christmas, so they found another photographer. Lack of communication lost me a client. Afterwards, I explained that I had taken the week off for family time at the holidays, and wished them a happy photo shoot. I let them know I'd be happy to hear from them again. I was a little disappointed in myself that I didn't check e-mail for that week to at least respond, but sometimes my kids just need me to focus on them. My point is that as much as we try to be professional at all times, sometimes life gets in the way. I'm not a 24 hour Walmart. I won't always be able to respond to e-mail within hours like I usually do. Come to think of it..... I should set of an "out of office" reply next time.

jttphoto

One thought I had while reading through this is it seemed during your phone conversations there was always something going on that prevented you from giving your full time and attention. If you're at work or in a bad location simply telling them "I'm in a bad spot right now and can barely hear you, can't talk, etc." lets them know you aren't blowing them off. Follow that up with "Are you available on (insert date/time) so we can talk and I can give you my full time and attention?" Even if it still doesn't work out at least you've made the effort to talk to them. Just my thought/opinion.