New Basketball Shots

MDalby

OK, with all the input from this group, I had another crack at the remote strobes. With the settings improvement, the shots were a little better tonight.

As a reminder. A lot of the reason I am trying to get strobes to work is so that when I blow up my shots to 20x30, I will get better resolution. Right now the quality just isn't there when parents want the large prints. Maybe I need to swap out lens and go with maybe my 35-70mm 2.8D lens instead?

• I went with direct flash rather than bouncing
• I went with 1/8 power and put the flashes along the baseline. I tried to put the flash just over the players heads.
• I shot with my 50mm 1.4 prime, 1600 ISO, 250 SS, f/4.0

I overexposed all the shots. I could have adjusted down on the ISO. I had a lot of shadows. I tried a lot of different directional changes on the flash point and wasn't able to really get rid of the shadows. I tried going higher in the bleachers and the shadows seemed to increase. I lowered the flash to the guard rail in the bleachers and it was better. I tried bouncing at 1/4 power and I didn't like it. I tried cutting the power to 1/8 -1/3 and didn't like it.

What are your recommendations? Do I need another flash to bounce off the ceiling to get rid of shadows? Am I still just pointing the flash in the wrong direction, more needed toward the foul line?

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance. I have really appreciated everyones advice.

MD

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JimKarczewski

On way you'd really get rid of those is a third light under/over the basket somewhere. There is going to be shadow regardless where you put the lights, it's just controlling how much..

MDalby

JimKarczewski wrote: »

On way you'd really get rid of those is a third light under/over the basket somewhere. There is going to be shadow regardless where you put the lights, it's just controlling how much..

Thanks Jim. I will maybe need to get a 3rd receiver and rent another Speedlight and bounce it off the ceiling and see if that gives me some fill.

MD

jonh68

The problems you are experiencing is why I don't like direct strobes for basketball. The shadows look unnatural. It looks like you have nice white ceilings and walls. Try using on camera flash and bounce off the ceiling, back wall, or set your strobes up so they bounce off the walls.

MileHighAko

Mark, with the 1.4 prime and the D700 that performs very well with high ISO, do you really need the flash? Just curious how your non-flash shots turned out.

MDalby

MileHighAko wrote: »

Mark, with the 1.4 prime and the D700 that performs very well with high ISO, do you really need the flash? Just curious how your non-flash shots turned out.

Here is a non-flash shot from the freshman team last night. The shots look good in 8x10s but when I try to blow them up for 20x30, I get a lot of pixelation. I am picking up my first 20x30s with the strobes today so I will see how they turn out.

MDalby

jonh68 wrote: »

The problems you are experiencing is why I don't like direct strobes for basketball. The shadows look unnatural. It looks like you have nice white ceilings and walls. Try using on camera flash and bounce off the ceiling, back wall, or set your strobes up so they bounce off the walls.

I am shooting another game this evening. I will try bouncing with 1/4 power again and see if I can get it to work. I tried a couple of shots last night and it didn't seem to give me much. Maybe, "I need more power captain!" Maybe I need more flash units. I have pretty much spent my allowance for this year though.

MileHighAko

MDalby wrote: »

Here is a non-flash shot from the freshman team last night. The shots look good in 8x10s but when I try to blow them up for 20x30, I get a lot of pixelation. I am picking up my first 20x30s with the strobes today so I will see how they turn out.

Nice photo!

I'm not an enlarging expert, but I do use Perfect Resize (formerly Genuine Fractals) to enlarge all my sports photos that I blow up for posters, etc. Not sure if that would help your cause. I'm still pretty new at this stuff too.

jonh68

I think your non-flashed pic looks better than the flashed. High School basketball in gyms is what it is.

JimKarczewski

After looking again, you might be too hot on your flashes as well. You really only want to me 2 stops over ambient max. Those seem like they might be a bit more. If you were at 1/8, try 1/16 power... if that's too dark do 1/16 + 1/3, etc.. assuming you are in the same gym. Bouncing is rarely an option and a lot of times can be unpredictable, especially around here, which is why nobody does it. Last nights ceiling was yellow with purple walls.. pretty typical for here except the newest of gyms. Even then, controlling the light and not going too much over ambient will help control those shadows.

Unless, of course, you are like the guy that shot at my old high school with his elinchromes set to 1/2 power. He just blew the hell out of everything. His pictures, no shadows.. but also a dark void for a background he had his lights turned up so high.

MDalby

I picked up the 20x30 shots with the strobes. A WORLD of difference. The shots look crisp and clear and good definition. I think I am hooked on strobes. More changes in setup on Tuesday night.

MD

jpc

Mark,

Let me start by saying that I am not a fan of flash at indoor HS sports. IMO is it distracting to the players and spectators, even when it's bounced. Direct flash from the baseline is at the very least, inconsiderate.

Having said all of that, I think you have all of the tools to take excellent shots without using flash.

You own a D700 and a 70-200 2.8. Use the 70-200 and take your ISO up. 50mm is not tight enough on FF. You'll have to crop like crazy and lose all of your resolution. I shoot up to ISO 6400 with my D700 and an 80-200 AF-S and my 8x10's look just fine. I haven't tried 20x30 but how many are you actually going to sell?

You'll also need to raise your shutter speed. 1/400 works. 1/500 is better.

Your "non'flash" shot looks great. Use the 70-200 (no VR), 1/500, start at ISO 3200 and you're good. Leave the flashes home.

MDalby

jpc,

Thank you for the feedback. I understand concerns BUT, I think if the power is set low on the flashes, it is not distracting. It is not at their faces. I have got it down pretty good where I don't have to shoot too much in burst, 2-3 shots per trip down the floor.

I have already sold over 30 20x30 shots each year. The parents and the players LOVE them. The school loves them for the trophy cases. I just print them out and take them to games and the parents drool over them and show them to each other.

I will try some different things this week non-flash etc and see what works best.

MD

JimKarczewski

I think that's a load of BS that it's distracting to the players. So, what are they going to do if they go off to college, ask they stop using those distracting big flashes??? Because every D1 school out there has flashes in the rafters that are constantly going off. You don't see the people care about it, much less the players. And honestly, if you want to shoot without flash, I'd LOVE for you to come visit some of the gyms around here.. 1/60@2.8, ISO 4000. How are you going to shoot that? I'm sure as hell not going to run ISO6400 at 1.4 to try and get 1/250 at best. If the flash was that distracting, they wouldn't allow it.

jpc

Well, that took a little longer then I thought. Thanks for your insight, Jim. All gyms are not created equal and not every shot needs to be good enough for a 20 x 30 poster. Your tone suggests that's it's your right to be able to shoot "poster-quality" images at every HS gym, no matter what. Maybe next time you're in a gym that won't let you get over 1/60 at ISO 4000, you should consider just not shooting the game. Sometimes it's fun to just watch them play.

JimKarczewski

jpc wrote: »

Well, that took a little longer then I thought. Thanks for your insight, Jim. All gyms are not created equal and not every shot needs to be good enough for a 20 x 30 poster. Your tone suggests that's it's your right to be able to shoot "poster-quality" images at every HS gym, no matter what. Maybe next time you're in a gym that won't let you get over 1/60 at ISO 4000, you should consider just not shooting the game. Sometimes it's fun to just watch them play.

Wow, well.. I'll just tell my editor, "Sowwy. Too dark. No pics for the paper." That would NEVER fly. Are you serious? I'm not there as "soccer mom with camera." I'm there to WORK.

jpc

Ok, sorry. I thought you were a soccer mom.

MDalby

jpc wrote: »

All gyms are not created equal and not every shot needs to be good enough for a 20 x 30 poster. Your tone suggests that's it's your right to be able to shoot "poster-quality" images at every HS gym, no matter what. Maybe next time you're in a gym that won't let you get over 1/60 at ISO 4000, you should consider just not shooting the game. Sometimes it's fun to just watch them play.

jpc,

I am not sure where this emotional stance against flashes comes from. I have definitely had games where photogs were full power in their flash and blowing people out of the stands and it was annoying. But, you can't hold all people accountable for a few irresponsible people.

If done right, flashes are not a distraction and can also add to the quality of the shots.

Yes, I want my shots to be poster quality all the time.

MD

jpc

Mark,

My last two posts were in response to Jim's.

I too would love for all my BB shots to be of "poster-quality". I'm just not willing to be a distraction in order to make it happen. It's bad enough I'm in their face on the baselines.

Of course flashes add to the quality of the shot. No one is disputing that. And I do agree that, if done correctly (like in the rafters - not on the base line and not on railings firing at the bleachers across the court) it can be "less" distracting.

If I was shooting games on assignment and my livelihood depended upon it (like Jim), I'm sure I would be have less of a problem being distracting to the players and spectators. But, I'm not, and I'm betting that you're not either. Based upon the information you provided in your original post, you have plenty of room to improve your ambient shots before having to resort to strobes.

MDalby

jpc,

You are correct. I have room to improve.

jpc

BTW, how do you like your cactus triggers? Are they solid?

Qarik

The flash work looks bad imo..shadows all over the place. At smaller sizes I think the non flash shot you posted looks much better. As far as "pixelation" at larger sizes..well it is either noise or motion blur. NR will take care of the noise. Can you post exif data?

MDalby

Qarik wrote: »

The flash work looks bad imo..shadows all over the place. At smaller sizes I think the non flash shot you posted looks much better. As far as "pixelation" at larger sizes..well it is either noise or motion blur. NR will take care of the noise. Can you post exif data?

Qarik,

I understand these shots, my first results, have shadows and I think I can manage this through better placement of the flashes and maybe some bounce to fill.

The question is not what looks good at smaller sizes. As I posted in the OP, I am looking for ways to make my 20x30 shots better. The issue is not SS/motion blur since I was shooting at 1/1000 when I shot without a strobe. The issue is that I had a lack of definition when I blew up the shots. Maybe it is because I was using a 50mm 1.4 prime lens and I need to use a zoom. Shoot tight, crop tighter? NR will not add definition. Quite the opposite, it removes noise and blurs.

MD

DizzynDenver

Strobes too bright?
I'm thinking about upgrading to a d700 for basketball pictures. I stumbled across this forum. Do you have any complaints about the flash being too bright on the players? How do you convince the school to let you put up all the equipment? Are you actually selling enough of these pics to justify all strobes and flashes? Just curious, if I get the d700 to get decent pictures of my sons basketball then I might try to sell some pictures myself to justify the cost of the camera. I would appreciate any answers and I will defiantly keep following this thread.

MDalby wrote: »

OK, with all the input from this group, I had another crack at the remote strobes. With the settings improvement, the shots were a little better tonight.

As a reminder. A lot of the reason I am trying to get strobes to work is so that when I blow up my shots to 20x30, I will get better resolution. Right now the quality just isn't there when parents want the large prints. Maybe I need to swap out lens and go with maybe my 35-70mm 2.8D lens instead?

• I went with direct flash rather than bouncing
• I went with 1/8 power and put the flashes along the baseline. I tried to put the flash just over the players heads.
• I shot with my 50mm 1.4 prime, 1600 ISO, 250 SS, f/4.0

I overexposed all the shots. I could have adjusted down on the ISO. I had a lot of shadows. I tried a lot of different directional changes on the flash point and wasn't able to really get rid of the shadows. I tried going higher in the bleachers and the shadows seemed to increase. I lowered the flash to the guard rail in the bleachers and it was better. I tried bouncing at 1/4 power and I didn't like it. I tried cutting the power to 1/8 -1/3 and didn't like it.

What are your recommendations? Do I need another flash to bounce off the ceiling to get rid of shadows? Am I still just pointing the flash in the wrong direction, more needed toward the foul line?

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance. I have really appreciated everyones advice.

MD

Shot #1


Shot #2


Shot #3


Shot #4


Shot #5

MDalby

Dizzy...

I didn't buy my D700 for basketball. I bought it for night football. I don't think a D700 is needed for basketball. I think the strobes will ultimately get me the best look once I have figured things out. So far I am using the Edison light bulb approach and finding every way it doesn't work.

I have sold 30 20x30 prints this year in basketball. I haven't had a single concern expressed to me so far about the strobes. I don't really shoot with burst much any more and I shoot at 1/8 power so it isn't really noticeable.

MD

73Rocks

MDalby wrote: »

jpc,

I am not sure where this emotional stance against flashes comes from. I have definitely had games where photogs were full power in their flash and blowing people out of the stands and it was annoying. But, you can't hold all people accountable for a few irresponsible people.

If done right, flashes are not a distraction and can also add to the quality of the shots.

Yes, I want my shots to be poster quality all the time.

MD

If I could add my 2 cents . . . I pride myself on being able to go into small gyms with poor lighting and shoot basketball without using a flash with my Canon 50D and a 50mm f1.4 Prime lens. BUT I have been toying with dialing down my ISO and using my 430EX at about 1/8th power and I will have to admit that in my situations the "fill" flash adds just a little bit of "pizazz" to the shots. I am really torn between using the "fill" flash or not. BTW . . . using a flash in my neck of the woods is not an issue with the schools and although I am toying with the idea of creating posters too I don't know if I have the quality for them yet.



Wtih "fill" flash.



Without any flash.

jpc

DizzynDenver wrote: »

I'm thinking about upgrading to a d700 for basketball pictures. I stumbled across this forum. Do you have any complaints about the flash being too bright on the players? How do you convince the school to let you put up all the equipment? Are you actually selling enough of these pics to justify all strobes and flashes? Just curious, if I get the d700 to get decent pictures of my sons basketball then I might try to sell some pictures myself to justify the cost of the camera. I would appreciate any answers and I will defiantly keep following this thread.

Dizzy,

Don't buy a D700 hoping to make your money back by shooting HS basketball, because it's probably not going to happen. Take into consideration that everyone who posts "sales" figures, inflates them. Most of the prints I sell are 4x6 and 5x7 and I'm certainly not getting rich.

Buy the D700 because it's an amazing camera and you want great shots.

As far as whether or not you need a D700 for basketball, I can tell you that I can get sharp images with my D700 WITHOUT flash, at ISO 6400. I used a D90 last season and it absolutely did not cut it.

ISO 6400, 2.8, 1/500, 80-200 AF-S

MDalby

73Rocks;

Don't get scared off of the flash just because there are a couple of photogs on this board that have heartburn about it and can't sell posters. To me it is a no brainer to use flash. There is no debate that flash improves the shots and from my experiences, the improvement is necessary for posters. I shoot for the sophomore team, JV and varsity and it is very easy to get 30 sales between the three teams. I don't charge an arm and a leg for them. I charge $45 a piece and I use Cosco for my processing. I just printed out the best shots without the parents being aware of it and just took the posters to the following game and told the parents that they were not under any obligation to purchase the shot if they didn't want to. I have only had one parent that has not purchased the poster. I also take posters to the end of year team dinner and parents buy them there.

High ISO shots just plain don't cut it when blown up.

jpc

MDalby wrote: »

73Rocks;
High ISO shots just plain don't cut it when blown up.

Not if you're shooting at 50mm and cropping away all of your resolution. It's much easier to shoot wide and crop, but you have to fill the frame in order to maintain your detail. Give it a try!

Helvegr

Just stumbled upon this thread, and first let me say that your shots are better then anything I could take. I've NEVER taken a sports shot in my life.

So now that is out there, I'm curious about your choice of aperture. I was looking at some of the photos and it appeared to be at f/4.0. Is that intentional? I think some of these shots would be even better with more separation of the subject from the background. Something at f/2.8 maybe?

Either way, nice work!

Zerodog

How much are you cropping?