need help optimizing two soft boxes for large indoor group shots (shadows!)

Jzazzi

This is an annual fundraiser for our boy scout troop. We shoot individual portraits, small groups of 8-15, and one large group shoot of the entire pack. I'm not satisfied with any of the group shots.

We have two 2' x 2' softboxes (of questionable quality) triggered by remote. They fire every time and usually with some degree of consistency, but they do not seem to work very well for large group shots (or even medium groups of a dozen or so). I always have dark shadows in all but the front row, and very uneven lighting between the front row and the back row.

I believe the problem is the surface area of the soft boxes is too small for the distance they are placed away from the group. These same soft boxes are just fine for individual portraits when moved within a few feet of the subject and the light wraps around people well, leaving no hard shadows. However when pulled back far enough to be out of the shot and trying to light everyone, I run into trouble.

I tried to compensate by lowering the flash power and using the cafeteria's fluorescent overhead lights as a fill light. This didn't work very well and the color balance was a disaster. I've tried moving the lights higher off the floor, shooting from eye level and from on a ladder, but there are still dark shadows.

Am I missing something, or am I limited by the gear I have?

Attached is an untouched example, and the post below shows the setup.

Jzazzi

And here is what the setup looks like.

-J

ARKreations

For this type of setup, you would probably be better served by large reflective or shoot through umbrellas. When a softbox is placed at a distance of more than twice it's dimension, it effectively becomes a pinpoint (hard) light source and will result in exactly the shadowing you are experiencing.

Jzazzi

I have two sets of umbrellas that can be used with the lights, but they are about the same size as the soft boxes, if not smaller. I'm not sure they would be better.

You must be talking about much, much larger umbrellas. Maybe 5ft in diameter or more?

I have a pair of reflective umbrellas. I'm guessing firing off of those into a large white sheet would be better than what I've got, though I'm not sure if the lights I have are powerful enough for all that. I wouldn't mind the extra work involved with setting up something like that, it's for only one shot.

aj986s

I'm not anywhere near being a studio lighting expert. But I believe the mention to the shoot through umbrellas is because the light would be sent out in a broad arc, as opposed to the very directional nature of the softbox. Consequently, the umbrella does not cast as narrow and directional a beam, which in effect reduces the shadows.

I think another thing to consider is using a bounce flash off the ceiling for some additional fill, as long as the ceiling is close to white in color.

One of these days, I want to invest in some decent studio lighting, especially something with a usable wattage modeling lamp, so that you can assess things like shadows in advance.

GLWthe pics! Its been years, but we did the Cub/Boy Scout routine for many years. Good stuff!

ARKreations

aj986s wrote: »

I'm not anywhere near being a studio lighting expert. But I believe the mention to the shoot through umbrellas is because the light would be sent out in a broad arc, as opposed to the very directional nature of the softbox. Consequently, the umbrella does not cast as narrow and directional a beam, which in effect reduces the shadows.

Yep - that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for clarifying.

Qarik

forget all the sofboxes and umbrellas..you have white ceiling and close walls. ain your flashes up and slight pointed away from subjects. you will get nice soft bounced lights all over. Don't over think it.

zoomer

Qarik wrote: »

forget all the sofboxes and umbrellas..you have white ceiling and close walls. ain your flashes up and slight pointed away from subjects. you will get nice soft bounced lights all over. Don't over think it.

^this
I would put both lights in the center turn them way up and bounce off the ceiling, you need to over power the strong light you are getting from the existing ceiling lights which is what is throwing your lighting balance off.
Raise your iso to strengthen the power of your flash.

anonymouscuban

Qarik wrote: »

forget all the sofboxes and umbrellas..you have white ceiling and close walls. ain your flashes up and slight pointed away from subjects. you will get nice soft bounced lights all over. Don't over think it.

This x 2.

Art Scott

zoomer wrote: »

^this
I would put both lights in the center turn them way up and bounce off the ceiling, you need to over power the strong light you are getting from the existing ceiling lights which is what is throwing your lighting balance off.
Raise your iso to strengthen the power of your flash.

why not just kill the overhead lighting..simple...no need to raise iso...especially if OP doesn't have a good high iso camera.......are flsahes being shot at full power or a reduced power.......also could take the diffuser out of the inside of softboxes and move them a little closer to subjects

Jzazzi

Thanks for all the ideas. Looks like dimming the overhead lights (easy to do) and bouncing off ceiling and walls, while still aiming slightly towards the croud, is the best solution. ISO should not be a problem.

I'll remember this for next time, thank you much.

mikeshots

I'd try getting your lights a little higher off the ground. Looks like you're getting shadows in the back because your lights aren't high enough. I do group shots like that quite a bit and I typically have my lights 7-8 feet high on light stands. I would also try shooting with flatter light, meaning, I wouldn't have the two flashes angled inward like that. I would put them both the same distance from the subjects, at the same height pointed straight forward (might even angle them down just a bit). That would help eliminate some of the cross-shadows you're getting in the back areas. If you meter your lights in the area where your middle row of people will be, you should be pretty close from the front row to the back. It sounds like you may be limited on the number of lights you have available to use, but a couple of background lights would really help separate them from the backdrop. Good luck!

Qarik

Jzazzi wrote: »

Thanks for all the ideas. Looks like dimming the overhead lights (easy to do) and bouncing off ceiling and walls, while still aiming slightly towards the croud, is the best solution. ISO should not be a problem.

I'll remember this for next time, thank you much.

not quite..you want them aiming slightly away from the crowd. The point is to get complete bounce so your light soruce is nice and big and soft. If you aim slightly towards teh crowd you may end up with some hot spots and shadows..though it may still work.

Jzazzi

Yeah I was thinking a tiny bit of direct, but mostly bounce. Will have to experiment and learn for next time.

Thanks again,
-J

Qarik

Jzazzi wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking a tiny bit of direct, but mostly bounce. Will have to experiment and learn for next time.

Thanks again,
-J

if you are going that route..stick a couple of gary fong spheres on them.

ropeboy

http://markhaymond.smugmug.com/Events/Santa-Maria-High-School-Class/13003940_2iDYH#964044915_QrEwi
This was shot with a Gary Fong sphere mounted on top of the camera. I get similar group results with a single umbrella above the camera. The lighting is a little flat but every face is lit and there are no cross shadows.

Jzazzi

Thanks for the example ropeboy.

I think I have everything I need now, I love dgrin

-J

zoomer

For big groups like this I use an sb800 cranked all the way up, on a bracket with a Demb diffuser in the front and shoot it straight up into the ceiling at F4 ISO 1600. You might need 5.6 for that deep of a group. They come out great every time and no nasty shadows.