Creative Ways to Use 1/8000th Sync with Studio Strobes

jhelms

I'm sure that there are more creative ways to utilize this than what I'm thinking of so far.... would love some ideas and suggestions! Here's the deal:

I use 5 small 160ws AC studio strobes, 3 portable (DC power via Quantum small battery packs) 320ws studio strobes, and 10 speedlights. After dozens of hours trying various configurations, setups, and test shots, I can now sync all of them up to 1/8000th via Bowens radio triggers.

Currently, I use these for group photos that I do at work - the groups are always outside and many times with harsh or mid-day lighting (I don't get to schedule them). So I up the shutter speed and setup several lights to balance things out.

But what I really want to do is use them in more creative ways. I try to take advantage and frequently use each piece of equipment that I have access to.

Here's a few examples and setups that I've been doing lately:
http://www.facebook.com/johntookmypicture?v=photos&ref=ts#!/album.php?aid=66185&id=66374719840

Couple of experimental / test shots from this morning....

1) Testing ambient exposure, ISO200, 1/200th, f/4


2) ISO200, 1/320th, f/5.6


3) Now we're getting somewhere! 1/8000th, ISO200, f/2.8


4) 3 160ws studio strobes, 1/8000th, f/7.1, ISO800


5) ISO200, 1/8000th, f22


6) ISO200, 1/1000th, f/22

Cuong

Photos are not showing.:(:

Cuong

jhelms

They're showing up for me in IE and Mozilla, but try this link it should send you to the entire set from this morning:

http://www.johntookmypicture.com/Business/Gear/2011-01-31-HSS-160ws-Strobes/15656875_MCXZM

Sam

OK, dumb question of the day................how do you get the camera to shoot with a shutter speed greater than the mfg sync speed using studio strobes?

I am not sure I can do this. I even need to be careful using the studio strobes at 1/200 with my Canon 5D II or I can get the shutter partially closed. The sync speed is 1/200 with speed lights, and seems to work well at 1/160 with studio strobes.

I would really like to know how to get the camera to fire at higher shutter speeds using stdio strobes without catching the shutter partially closed.

Sam

jhelms

Sam wrote: »

OK, dumb question of the day................how do you get the camera to shoot with a shutter speed greater than the mfg sync speed using studio strobes?

I am not sure I can do this. I even need to be careful using the studio strobes at 1/200 with my Canon 5D II or I can get the shutter partially closed. The sync speed is 1/200 with speed lights, and seems to work well at 1/160 with studio strobes.

I would really like to know how to get the camera to fire at higher shutter speeds using stdio strobes without catching the shutter partially closed.

Sam

It took literally dozens of hours and many many different configurations and combinations of radio triggers / sync cords / flashes / settings / etc.

I haven't been able to get this to work with Canon, but it works with my D700 and D3's.

jhelms

:-)

pathfinder

Interesting exploraion.

So you can shoot during daylight outside, but have it look like it is night?? I use High Speed Synch with some macro work to drive the background to black, since the flashes have so much power close up.

Like Sam, I am not certain I understand how a focal plane shutter can do this, since at shutter speeds above the basic synch speed, the shutter is never full open across the entire sensor. Some flashes emit light for a sustained burst like the old focal plane flash bulbs ( Canon calls this High Speed Synch ) , but I am not sure that most studio flashes actually are able to do this.


Sam, if you trigger the flashes in Manual Mode, via a standard PW, I don't think the camera will change your shutter speed, because it does not 'know" the flash is there. If you mount a speedlight in the hot shoe, yes, it will limit you to the camera's native synch speed, unless HSS is enabled. I am not sure if this is true with Nikon or not.

Art Scott

jhelms wrote: »

It took literally dozens of hours and many many different configurations and combinations of radio triggers / sync cords / flashes / settings / etc.

I haven't been able to get this to work with Canon, but it works with my D700 and D3's.

:D so are you going to tease us....or lay out the 1,2,3's of how you did it....say a tutorial and I think that is what Sam was hinting at..... scratch:D

Sam

jhelms wrote: »

:-)

So you resurrect this thread after 7 months to do what? I noticed you at Fort Benning . Are you in the military? Are you jump qualified?

Sam

Qarik

not to rain on your parade but when I put pocket wizards on my camera and flashes, they don't need any mods or trick to get to 1/8000..they just work with standard HS sync

Sam

Jim,

I know I can fire the flash with a PW and set the camera's shutter speed to whatever I want. I should have qualified my statement to say I can't effectively use a shutter speed above the cameras sync speed without using high speed sync which is a different animal.

Qarik,

The OP is saying he can get his studio flashes to sync at very high shutter speeds without using any high speed sync mode. Using the full flash capabilities would allow a much higher light output than any high speed sync mode could.

I believe I read somewhere a Nikon D70 could do this because of the way the shutter was designed, but not other Nikon camera bodies.

Sam

pathfinder

Sam,

Right, because the shutter curtains are never fully open at shutter speeds higher than native synch speed with a focal plane shutter. That is, the second curtain is already starting to close before the first curtain clears the distant edge of the frame, eg: a slit is crossing the frame, not a wide open exposure of the total sensor area. HSS causes the flash to emit a longer duration of light emmission, while the shutter slit passes across the frame.

I think the D70 had an electronic shutter rather than a focal plane shutter or some arrangement like that, that let is synch with studio strobes at 1/1000th or higher if I remember from the Strobist forums.

I still do not understand how he does this with a D700 and Bowens radio triggers.

ziggy53

pathfinder wrote: »

Sam,

Right, because the shutter curtains are never fully open at shutter speeds higher than native synch speed with a focal plane shutter. That is, the second curtain is already starting to close before the first curtain clears the distant edge of the frame, eg: a slit is crossing the frame, not a wide open exposure of the total sensor area. HSS causes the flash to emit a longer duration of light emmission, while the shutter slit passes across the frame.

I think the D70 had an electronic shutter rather than a focal plane shutter or some arrangement like that, that let is synch with studio strobes at 1/1000th or higher if I remember from the Strobist forums.

I still do not understand how he does this with a D700 and Bowens radio triggers.

It's true that a number of Nikon cameras with CCDs used an electronic shutter in conjunction with a simpler mechanical shutter, allowing very high flash sync with simple flash triggers.

Scroll down until you see, "Exploiting electronic shutters for ultra-high-speed sync."

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/05/hacking-your-cameras-sync-speed-pt-1.html

pathfinder

Ziggy, that ability of the D70 I alluded to in my previous post.

But I am not aware of that ability in the D700. Have you heard about this capability in the D700?

ziggy53

pathfinder wrote: »

Ziggy, that ability of the D70 I alluded to in my previous post.

But I am not aware of that ability in the D700. Have you heard about this capability in the D700?

I surely haven't. John's just a big tease.

Ppppllleeessseee John. If you can't tell us how you do this all we can say is ooooh ahhhh. We can't join in the fun. :cry

ziggy53

Other success stories using studio flash and very shutter high speeds for ambient light control:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/flexunits/discuss/72157626863340024/

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=710949

http://cameradojo.com/2010/06/03/pocketwizard-hypersync-warp-speed-for-studio-strobes/

http://fstoppers.com/chris-oconnell-strobes-above-his-cameras-sync-speed
(Skip the videos and go into the discussion under, especially "j24mike" comments and below.)

... of course all of these use the newer radio flash controllers like the Flex/Mini and RadiopopperPX/RadiopopperJR systems.

jhelms

Hey ya'll... to answer one of the above questions I'm a civilian photographer for the military currently over in Baghdad, Iraq.

Some other examples of my flash setups and mixing studio strobes and speedlights at 1/8000th
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.74212134840.66185.66374719840&type=1

The formula that I ended up with was a speedlight on the camera with radio trigger plugged into the sync port. The studio strobes (I presume because of relatively slow t.1 times) will sync at any speed, any power. My Nikon speedlights will trigger (this is without hss) at any speed but only if they are firing at 1/1. Some have cautioned that this method will or could result in inconsistent actual flash power making it into the exposure and/or inconsistent white balance issues but I have not run into either of those problems.

Sam

jhelms wrote: »

Hey ya'll... to answer one of the above questions I'm a civilian photographer for the military currently over in Baghdad, Iraq.

Some other examples of my flash setups and mixing studio strobes and speedlights at 1/8000th
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.74212134840.66185.66374719840&type=1

The formula that I ended up with was a speedlight on the camera with radio trigger plugged into the sync port. The studio strobes (I presume because of relatively slow t.1 times) will sync at any speed, any power. My Nikon speedlights will trigger (this is without hss) at any speed but only if they are firing at 1/1. Some have cautioned that this method will or could result in inconsistent actual flash power making it into the exposure and/or inconsistent white balance issues but I have not run into either of those problems.

John,

This is most frustrating!! The explanation you posted makes no sense to me. Why do you have a radio trigger and a speedlight on camera if your triggering the studio flash optically?

An Alien Bee AB800 at full power has a (t.1) duration of 1/1100. I readily admit I don't know how to do the math to determine how the (t.1) duration times relate to the shutter speeds, but I have not been able to shoot at anything over the sync speed. In fact even at the cameras rated sync speed I can get the infamous black line.

Bottom like I am asking how (exact settings, gear etc.) you can get a normal DLSR to sync with studio strobes at 1/8000 shutter speed.

EVERYTHING I have read says it won't work. I am seriously interested if there is a way to do this. Once I know your exact setting i will try duplicating it with my Canon gear.

Thanks

Sam

jhelms

Sam wrote: »

John,

This is most frustrating!! The explanation you posted makes no sense to me. Why do you have a radio trigger and a speedlight on camera if your triggering the studio flash optically?

An Alien Bee AB800 at full power has a (t.1) duration of 1/1100. I readily admit I don't know how to do the math to determine how the (t.1) duration times relate to the shutter speeds, but I have not been able to shoot at anything over the sync speed. In fact even at the cameras rated sync speed I can get the infamous black line.

Bottom like I am asking how (exact settings, gear etc.) you can get a normal DLSR to sync with studio strobes at 1/8000 shutter speed.

EVERYTHING I have read says it won't work. I am seriously interested if there is a way to do this. Once I know your exact setting i will try duplicating it with my Canon gear.

Thanks

Sam

I'm not triggering the studio strobes optically; using the Bowens remotes for Tx an Rx on each unit.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=438158209840&set=a.74212134840.66185.66374719840&type=1&permPage=1

Sam

:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash

Bottom like I am asking how (exact settings, gear etc.) you can get a normal DLSR to sync with studio strobes at 1/8000 shutter speed.

EVERYTHING I have read says it won't work. I am seriously interested if there is a way to do this. Once I know your exact setting i will try duplicating it with my Canon gear.

Thanks

Sam

:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash

ziggy53

jhelms wrote: »

... I haven't been able to get this to work with Canon, but it works with my D700 and D3's.

Sam wrote: »

:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash

Bottom like I am asking how (exact settings, gear etc.) you can get a normal DLSR to sync with studio strobes at 1/8000 shutter speed.

EVERYTHING I have read says it won't work. I am seriously interested if there is a way to do this. Once I know your exact setting i will try duplicating it with my Canon gear.

Thanks

Sam

:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash:bash

John already said that he hasn't gotten it to work in Canon.

Check out the links that I posted for some Canon related similar capabilities.

In particular, with Canon cameras, I believe that you need to use the camera and an external flash capable of HSS mode. With the camera and external flash in those modes, you attach either a radio transmitter to the PC port of the camera, or trigger the studio strobes optically.

If I understand what's going on, with the Canon methodology, the flash HSS mode allows both a higher shutter speed setting "and" it times the PC flash port to fire just before the first-curtain opens. This means that you are exposing primarily using the "tail" of the studio flash. The flash's tail is extended in reduced output of most studio flash heads (unlike speedlights/speedlites which shortens the flash duration at reduced output.)

I haven't tried it myself.

If this is true it means that the dRebels and 60D bodies would not be a good host to this method (since they all lack a PC port on the camera body.)

ziggy53

Sadly, I just tried my Canon 40D with both Canon 580 and Sigma 530, set to HSS mode, and a Flashpoint 1820 studio monolight. I could not find a combination of settings that would allow the studio flash to contribute to the exposure (except at 1/250th and longer.)

Fail.

It does look like the radio flash controllers like the Flex/Mini and RadiopopperPX/RadiopopperJR systems might be required after all (for Canon cameras).

ziggy53

A couple more links. First Nikon based, with 3 methods:

http://www.callumw.com/blog/how-to-do-high-speed-sync-with-studio-strobes/

Now a Canon based method:

http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/

jhelms

ziggy53 wrote: »

John already said that he hasn't gotten it to work in Canon.

Check out the links that I posted for some Canon related similar capabilities.

In particular, with Canon cameras, I believe that you need to use the camera and an external flash capable of HSS mode. With the camera and external flash in those modes, you attach either a radio transmitter to the PC port of the camera, or trigger the studio strobes optically.

If I understand what's going on, with the Canon methodology, the flash HSS mode allows both a higher shutter speed setting "and" it times the PC flash port to fire just before the first-curtain opens. This means that you are exposing primarily using the "tail" of the studio flash. The flash's tail is extended in reduced output of most studio flash heads (unlike speedlights/speedlites which shortens the flash duration at reduced output.)

I haven't tried it myself.

If this is true it means that the dRebels and 60D bodies would not be a good host to this method (since they all lack a PC port on the camera body.)

Yep, Sam - my replies and links above give the exact steps; and this was after DOZENS of hours of trying different setups and settings and configurations over a year or so.

1 - SB on camera, radio trigger plugged into sync port (i.e., not sitting in the hotshoe of the camera like we normally do)
2 - sb on camera has to be on and firing in my tests for this to work; but will only contribute to the exposure if it is firing 1/1.
3 - other sb's trigger via the bowens radio remotes, no micro-delay / etc. needed but they only contribute to the exposure if set at 1/1
4 - studio strobes triggered via the same radio remotes, they contribute to the exposure at various power levels, did not have to fire at 1/1

Thats it!

Sam

jhelms wrote: »

Yep, Sam - my replies and links above give the exact steps; and this was after DOZENS of hours of trying different setups and settings and configurations over a year or so.

1 - SB on camera, radio trigger plugged into sync port (i.e., not sitting in the hotshoe of the camera like we normally do)
2 - sb on camera has to be on and firing in my tests for this to work; but will only contribute to the exposure if it is firing 1/1.
3 - other sb's trigger via the bowens radio remotes, no micro-delay / etc. needed but they only contribute to the exposure if set at 1/1
4 - studio strobes triggered via the same radio remotes, they contribute to the exposure at various power levels, did not have to fire at 1/1

Thats it!

Thanks,

When I get a few minutes I will give this a try.

sam