C&C for MS BBall, please

adbsgicom

We just wrapped up a season for small private middle schools here in Central Texas. I wanted to get some feedback on what seemed like the best of what I collected over the 20 games or so I shot. Most of the gyms, as usual, are horrid for lighting. Most images are shot at f/2.2-f/2.5 and ISO 3200 (sometimes ISO 6400). Shutter generally 1/320-1/400. 50mm on a 7D body (80mm effective) along the offensive baseline.

Thanks!

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jpc

You did a good job. I shoot my daughter's JV games and every gym is ISO 6400 at 2.8, so I know what you're up against. Very nice set.

RickJohnsonPhotography

Overall, I like them. If I was to nit-pick, some could be straightened, and some could be cropped tighter.

vivalaveritas

Nice work. Good action.

rolette

Lady Bears == Brentwood Christian?

General suggestions (I also shoot a lot of MS sports, but no pro):

* Watch your horizons. Slightly off-kilter in several of these.
* WB is off on a few. This is one of the things I hate the most about shooting indoor sports!
* Crop a little tighter and watch out how you are chopping limbs (ex: #1 chops off right at his right ankle. joints are usually a no-no)
* I'd suggest bumping the ISO a bit to get more shutter speed. You are getting motion blur in the hands on several of these. 1/320 and 1/400 are pretty marginal, even for MS, unless you catch them at peak action.

Good job on the exposures. #6 is my favorite, although a tighter crop would help it considerably. #7 would be close with less motion blur and some tweaks to WB.

How's the 50mm 1.2 working out for basketball? Haven't seen that one before.

Jay

adbsgicom

Thanks for the feedback. I've been offline for a couple of weeks.
Yes, the Lady Bears are Brentwood Christian in Austin. Really a nice bunch of kids.

From a sports point of view, does one still crop generally along rule of thirds, and/or go in tight more for torso in the layup and less legs?

Mitchell

B-ball is tough to shoot. The lighting in these middle school gyms is generally poor. I've found over the years, that it is better to have noise and a sharply focused photo than to have a blurry photo with less noise. My nikon gear shines with these higher ISO shots. I usually set my SS at 1/500 an let my auto ISO function pick the necessary setting.

Crops can be tough. A few of these, you cropped across the feet. Either include everything or get in tight for some upper body crops and action under the basket. My best photos at this level are just the kids dribbling down the court and into the top of te key area where they make their first move and passes. The action under the rim is tough to capture since the play is so erratic.

HTH!

rolette

adbsgicom wrote: »

From a sports point of view, does one still crop generally along rule of thirds, and/or go in tight more for torso in the layup and less legs?

Rule of thirds still generally applies, but as always, it's more of a guideline than a hard composition rule. The other thing to keep in mind is aspect ratio. Folks have mixed opinions on this, but if you are shooting primarily for web display / media vs. prints, you can crop to non-standard aspect ratios to improve the shot.

As far as torso vs. full body, it depends on the shot. Both work. #7 is a good example where the shot would be less compelling as an upper body shot because you lose the context.

With #1, since the full shot chopped off his feet directly at the joint, a torso shot would be better.

The usual thing you'll hear from editors or pro sports photographers is to fill the frame, shoot tight and get low.

Jay

adbsgicom

Thanks for the the tips. I look back at a year ago, and these are much better, but I still knew they are plentiful room for improvement.
Regarding the 50 f/1.2; the focus speed isn't all that, but since I can sit very near the baseline, the wider angle is helpful when coupled with the 1.6 crop of the 7D. I'm generally shooting at about f/2-2.5 on these so the 50/1.8 or 1.4 would easily do the same job. Given the boatload of pixels available, I need to sit back a bit more to make sure I'm not losing the feet....

In most of these places we play, I don't have any WA sub-f/2.8 glass so even at ISO6400, the shutter speed is about 1/200 and the results are poor.

rolette

adbsgicom wrote: »

In most of these places we play, I don't have any WA sub-f/2.8 glass so even at ISO6400, the shutter speed is about 1/200 and the results are poor.

Yeah, gotta get that shutter speed up regardless of high-ISO noise. Noise can be dealt with (or accepted as a fact of life). Motion blur, not so much.

Another option I used heavily when I was shooting with a 40D is bounce flash. Works surprisingly well even if you can't completely nuke the ambient with it.

FWIW, for games in Round Rock middle schools, the range I'm shooting in at f/2.8 goes from 1/640 @ ISO 4000 to 1/500 @ ISO 10000. Cleans up remarkably well in LR3.

Jay

adbsgicom

Sounds like Round Rock has a bit higher budget for lights than most of the small parochial schools I'm shooting at

rolette

adbsgicom wrote: »

Sounds like Round Rock has a bit higher budget for lights than most of the small parochial schools I'm shooting at

That's scary! The lighting in the newer schools is pretty nice, but the older gyms are downright dungeons...

jcrawford

One question that comes to my mind. Do you have to get permission of all players parents to take photos of them at an event like this? I would assume so especially since they are posted on the internet?

rolette

jcrawford wrote: »

One question that comes to my mind. Do you have to get permission of all players parents to take photos of them at an event like this? I would assume so especially since they are posted on the internet?

Feel free to point to any legal requirement for him to do so...

If it provides a hint, you can safely bet that virtually every sports photo in these types of forums has no such consent/release.

jcrawford

Don't get me wrong I was not finger pointing, more I would like to hear more about it because I would be interested in practicing my camera techniques at events like this but have feared doing so. Last week I was in Boston taking pictures of small birds and Pidgeons and a guy (whom appeared to be homeless) started yelling at me, asking why I was not asking permission before taking his picture. In this case I quickly and calmly replied, sir you are not in any of my shots. I showed him that I was zooming into the birds and went on my way. But this incident triggered my question.

jpc

I am not an attorney..

In a public place, you do not need anyone's permission to take their picture. You may also publish their pics as long as they are to be used as editorial content. They may not be used (sold) for commercial purposes without consent.

Schools are not public places. If anyone objects, you should just stop. However, based upon what i know to be true, this is rare.

I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me.

Dreadnote

jpc wrote: »

I am not an attorney..

In a public place, you do not need anyone's permission to take their picture. You may also publish their pics as long as they are to be used as editorial content. They may not be used (sold) for commercial purposes without consent.

Schools are not public places. If anyone objects, you should just stop. However, based upon what i know to be true, this is rare.

I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me.

I work for a school district, and although schools are not a "public place", any event for which tickets are sold to the public (ie. friends and family members, relatives, etc.), there is no "expectation of privacy" and photos may be taken. That being said, if it creates a problem the peaceable and frankly the prudent thing to do would be to stop. "Commercial purposes" has the general meaning of ad campaigns and branding. Taking pictures for the purpose of making prints IS considered editorial especially when you are giving or selling them to the parents. It would be different if your intent was to put them up in Time Square. As to putting pictures on coffee mugs and aprons like smugmug offers, that is entirely up to the parent who chooses to do that of their own free will. Now, if you like I do have access to the school site during school hours, any photos taken during these times have no business making their way into public circulation as they pose a safety risk. Specifically, there are various child custody issues where non custodial parents and other family members who are not supposed to know the whereabouts of certain children might ascertain the location and goings on of children that they have no right to. Therefore no photos taken during these times may be released outside the confines of the school except in such cases as the specific student in the photo is by him or herself and the photo is given to that student or their custodial guardian. Admittedly, from school district to school district these guidelines might vary, but they are more or less the same as school districts do their utmost to avoid civil litigation.

Getting back to the C & C: If they let you, you might consider using a flash either bounced off the ceiling or the back wall or with remotes in the corners of the baseline. It really improves the color, intensity, and eliminates the motion blur present in a couple of the photos without tying you to unachievable shutter speeds given the poor lighting.

The flash bit is just my opinion of course. I know there are some that are dead set against flash.

jcrawford

Thanks for the information guys. I was thinking about practicing with the local little league and talking with the head coach of the team. I was the assistant coach last season so I do not think he will have any problems. The issue at hand comes with the parents. Tickets are not sold for the little league games but they are held at public parks so I will discuss the legalities with the coaches.

I am not sure if it is a good or bad idea but I am talking with Sportography (http://www.sportography.com/) where they will train you (16 hour course) and then you can take shots for the company and learn. However I found out that they all shoot on program mode and if you need to change the camera settings you have to call the supervisor over and they make the changes. I am not sure just how much learning I would get out of something like this. The pay is probably dirt cheap as it is a seasonal and part-time position but I would hope I would gain more from the experience and learning than the pay. Have any of you tried this? Is it worth pursuing or would shooting on Program mode defeat the purpose of learning?

Thanks,
Joseph Crawford

jpc

"Commercial purposes" has the general meaning of ad campaigns and branding.

Commercial use would be using the pic to promote the sale of a product or service.

Taking pictures for the purpose of making prints IS considered editorial especially when you are giving or selling them to the parents.

Correct. And if the pictures were taken in a public place, you may sell them without a release. This is why the paparazzi have jobs.

Specifically, there are various child custody issues where non custodial parents and other family members who are not supposed to know the whereabouts of certain children might ascertain the location and goings on of children that they have no right to. Therefore no photos taken during these times may be released outside the confines of the school except in such cases as the specific student in the photo is by him or herself and the photo is given to that student or their custodial guardian.

This does not apply to school sporting events. Event locations and times are not private information and are published in many places, with driving directions.

rolette

jcrawford wrote: »

I am not sure if it is a good or bad idea but I am talking with Sportography (http://www.sportography.com/) where they will train you (16 hour course) and then you can take shots for the company and learn. However I found out that they all shoot on program mode and if you need to change the camera settings you have to call the supervisor over and they make the changes. I am not sure just how much learning I would get out of something like this. The pay is probably dirt cheap as it is a seasonal and part-time position but I would hope I would gain more from the experience and learning than the pay. Have any of you tried this? Is it worth pursuing or would shooting on Program mode defeat the purpose of learning?

You don't want anything to do with that sort of arrangement... If they were going to teach you how to shoot sports, (a) you wouldn't be in one of the program modes and (b) you would adjust the camera yourself.

Sounds like a program designed to take advantage of you in multiple ways.

Jay

rolette

Dreadnote wrote: »

I work for a school district, and although schools are not a "public place", any event for which tickets are sold to the public (ie. friends and family members, relatives, etc.), there is no "expectation of privacy" and photos may be taken. That being said, if it creates a problem the peaceable and frankly the prudent thing to do would be to stop. "Commercial purposes" has the general meaning of ad campaigns and branding. Taking pictures for the purpose of making prints IS considered editorial especially when you are giving or selling them to the parents. It would be different if your intent was to put them up in Time Square. As to putting pictures on coffee mugs and aprons like smugmug offers, that is entirely up to the parent who chooses to do that of their own free will. Now, if you like I do have access to the school site during school hours, any photos taken during these times have no business making their way into public circulation as they pose a safety risk. Specifically, there are various child custody issues where non custodial parents and other family members who are not supposed to know the whereabouts of certain children might ascertain the location and goings on of children that they have no right to. Therefore no photos taken during these times may be released outside the confines of the school except in such cases as the specific student in the photo is by him or herself and the photo is given to that student or their custodial guardian. Admittedly, from school district to school district these guidelines might vary, but they are more or less the same as school districts do their utmost to avoid civil litigation.

Excellent summary

jcrawford

Jay,

Thanks for the feedback on that. I was also thinking that because what am I going to learn on Program Mode?

Thanks,
Joseph Crawford

jpc

rolette wrote: »

You don't want anything to do with that sort of arrangement... If they were going to teach you how to shoot sports, (a) you wouldn't be in one of the program modes and (b) you would adjust the camera yourself.

Sounds like a program designed to take advantage of you in multiple ways.

Jay

They just want your $. Set your camera to manual and fire away.

jcrawford

In all honesty they are not asking for money from me, rather will pay me to take photos But I am concerned with using Program mode.

At least they have not asked for any yet lol.

Dreadnote

I hope I didn't come across the wrong way JPC. We agree. I was simply giving my personal experience and the knowledge I've gained after several conversations with district administrators since the bulk of what I'm doing takes place in middle schools.

jpc

Dreadnote wrote: »

I hope I didn't come across the wrong way JPC. We agree. I was simply giving my personal experience and the knowledge I've gained after several conversations with district administrators since the bulk of what I'm doing takes place in middle schools.

No worries, it was good insight. Some of what you mentioned, although informative, didn't apply directly to photography at indoor school sporting events. Just offering a little perspective and clarification, that's all