Night Football Flash Setup

MDalby

I have a bracket built for my flashes that has two SB-800 flashes and a SC-29 cable for TTL going to the master and fiber optics going from the master to the slave flash to improve my fire rate.

What is the best set up of the flashes for night football. Do you guys use the same approach for football that you use for basketball and use manual settings rather than TTL and shoot with your camera settings 2 stops under ambient?

If I use TTL, what is the best approach to take in setting up the flashes to freeze action and get the best results?

I'm going to go shoot some night Rugby to try to dial things in for football.

Thanks for the help!

MD

johng

MD -
Here are a couple suggestions:
1) Don't shoot wide open - get your 2+ stops below ambient by dropping not just ISO but aperture. Shooting at f4 or 5.6 instead of 2.8 will really help the sharpness. Light fall-off will take care of subject isolation.
2) Watch out for angles that will put buildings/vehicles right behind the action. For example when I shoot football at one stadium if I shoot into the endzone I get horrible shadows on a building right behind the endzone. Not good. That's when flash is at it's worst

3) TTL vs. manual flash. Truth be told, the TTL on my 1dIII/580exII combo works well enough I've never had to try manual flash settings. I can't imagine your setup would do worse.

4) make sure camera's setting is around 3 stops below ambient. Last football I shot I was around 3 (or slightly more) below ambient and that really helped with the ghosting.

5) Remember to keep things framed tightly even with the flash. If you're shooting a 200m lens, still keep it around 25 yards or so. This will also keep a lot of separation between your subject and background so light fall-off does it's job and you get your isolation.

MDalby

John,

Awesome advice. Thanks for the help.

MDalby

John,

What do you use for your SS? Do you still use 1/250?

JimKarczewski

You have to limit yourself to 1/250 or 1/200 depending on your camera. HSS will never work.. too bad they can't figure out how to do it faster.. well, which would be helpful more for basketball.. but anyway.. we know about that.. lol

johng

I leave my ss at the synch speed (1/300 on my camera). In my mind at least, it's a safety net - if there's a bright spot and more ambient light the faster shutter speed will result in less ghosting (i.e. 1/300 is enough to freeze trunk and some leg movements).

What would REALLY be helpful is if exif data recorded how much flash power was used.

LRussoPhoto

johng wrote: »

MD -
Here are a couple suggestions:
1) Don't shoot wide open - get your 2+ stops below ambient by dropping not just ISO but aperture. Shooting at f4 or 5.6 instead of 2.8 will really help the sharpness. Light fall-off will take care of subject isolation.
2) Watch out for angles that will put buildings/vehicles right behind the action. For example when I shoot football at one stadium if I shoot into the endzone I get horrible shadows on a building right behind the endzone. Not good. That's when flash is at it's worst

3) TTL vs. manual flash. Truth be told, the TTL on my 1dIII/580exII combo works well enough I've never had to try manual flash settings. I can't imagine your setup would do worse.

4) make sure camera's setting is around 3 stops below ambient. Last football I shot I was around 3 (or slightly more) below ambient and that really helped with the ghosting.

5) Remember to keep things framed tightly even with the flash. If you're shooting a 200m lens, still keep it around 25 yards or so. This will also keep a lot of separation between your subject and background so light fall-off does it's job and you get your isolation.

Going through some older post and came across this. Would you mind explaining what you mean by "get your 2+ stops below ambient by dropping not just ISO but aperture. Shooting at f4 or 5.6 instead of 2.8 will really help the sharpness. Light fall-off will take care of subject isolation."
trying to learn using the flash with sports photog. Thank you.

johng

Normally when shooting sports, you use a fast shutter speed to freeze the action. But you can use flash to freeze the action instead. The burst of light from a flash is about 1/1000-1/4000 in duration. If the flash is providing the vast majority of light for the exposure, there is only enough light to record a good image for 1/1000-1/4000 of a second - even if the shutter is open for 1/60 of a second. The key is that the exposure settings you use must be at least 2 stops below proper exposure for ambient light. If the exposure settings are closer to proper exposure for ambient you get more "ghosting" which is what it's called when you have motion blur with flash.

Now, the other part of my comments - about using f4 or f5.6 instead of f2.8 are because a lens is always going to be sharper stopped down. When you stop down the lens there are usually two problems for the sports shooter:
1 - the shutter speed slows down. In our case, we don't care as much because it's the flash burst and NOT the fast shutter speed that is stopping the action
2 - you get more DOF and backgrounds get more distracting. But when it's dark out and your exposure is 'dark' without the light from the flash, those backgrounds aren't much of an issue.
Here's a shot at f5. No way I would shoot that narrow during a day game. But the distraction of the background is minimized because the light from the flash doesn't reach far enough to really eluminate the background

LRussoPhoto

Wow, that is great info! Can't wait to give this a try. Thank you!

LRussoPhoto

Is the flash mounted on the camera or do you have it on a monopod type set up like in your post in this thread?
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=183666

I am using either a d300s or a d90 with a sb900 flash unit. When I have the flash off the camera in commandor mode, the flash doesn't have all the modes available like ttl, manual and repeat like it does when the flash is mounted on the camera. Am I missing something or does it not matter? Or do I need the cord connecting the flash to the camera?

Icebear

Cord or Pocket Wizard.

LRussoPhoto

Icebear wrote: »

Cord or Pocket Wizard.

So in order to get the features available when the flash is mounted on the hot shoe, I need a cord or pocket wizard?

Icebear

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

So in order to get the features available when the flash is mounted on the hot shoe, I need a cord or pocket wizard?

The trouble is, that if you mount the flash low on your monopod, and are outdoors, the Nikon wireless IR system doesn't communicate very well with your speedlight. The most economical fix is a cord. Less expensive radio triggers won't give you the TTL features you want.

LRussoPhoto

johng wrote: »

Normally when shooting sports, you use a fast shutter speed to freeze the action. But you can use flash to freeze the action instead. The burst of light from a flash is about 1/1000-1/4000 in duration. If the flash is providing the vast majority of light for the exposure, there is only enough light to record a good image for 1/1000-1/4000 of a second - even if the shutter is open for 1/60 of a second. The key is that the exposure settings you use must be at least 2 stops below proper exposure for ambient light. If the exposure settings are closer to proper exposure for ambient you get more "ghosting" which is what it's called when you have motion blur with flash.

Now, the other part of my comments - about using f4 or f5.6 instead of f2.8 are because a lens is always going to be sharper stopped down. When you stop down the lens there are usually two problems for the sports shooter:
1 - the shutter speed slows down. In our case, we don't care as much because it's the flash burst and NOT the fast shutter speed that is stopping the action
2 - you get more DOF and backgrounds get more distracting. But when it's dark out and your exposure is 'dark' without the light from the flash, those backgrounds aren't much of an issue.
Here's a shot at f5. No way I would shoot that narrow during a day game. But the distraction of the background is minimized because the light from the flash doesn't reach far enough to really eluminate the background

Just had a thought, what ISO should I be using in this situation?

johng

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

Just had a thought, what ISO should I be using in this situation?

The key is to get total stops about 2-3 below ambient. You are limited in shutter speed to flash synch speed of your camera. Let's say that's 1/250. So you need to use combination of aperture and ISO reduction to get below that threshold. I happen to use ISO 800, because I don't have to run noise reduction on ISO 800 images. That allows me to close down to 5.6 or so which gets both players in great focus. But there's no magic value - my suggestion is to experiment and see what works for you.

LRussoPhoto

johng wrote: »

The key is to get total stops about 2-3 below ambient. You are limited in shutter speed to flash synch speed of your camera. Let's say that's 1/250. So you need to use combination of aperture and ISO reduction to get below that threshold. I happen to use ISO 800, because I don't have to run noise reduction on ISO 800 images. That allows me to close down to 5.6 or so which gets both players in great focus. But there's no magic value - my suggestion is to experiment and see what works for you.

Duh, your right, I didnt think about that, lol. Set the iso to get the shutter and aperture I am looking for.

I have never used noise reduction software, could u recommend some?

Icebear

QuadRacer041 wrote: »

Duh, your right, I didnt think about that, lol. Set the iso to get the shutter and aperture I am looking for.

I have never used noise reduction software, could u recommend some?

Lightroom 3