My first event with my new ExpoDisc

met

So I purchased an ExpoDisc because a lot of times my white balances seem to be all over the place in event photography. My goal is to try and nail the picture as closely as I can in camera, cut out post time and try to produce consistent images to create a cohesive set. I thought the expodisc would help me towards getting those results.

I photographed a wedding yesterday. The place of worship where the ceremony was had overhead florescent lighting. I popped on the expodisc, followed the instructions like I found here and set my custom white balance. On my live view, they all looked quite cool and bluish to my eye. I was a little worried, but decided to trust the product and thought that it was something I could fix in post if it was off.

I was quite pleased with the results. I prefer a little warmer for people shots than what it produced, but the images were all very consistent (that's what I really was most pleased about) and I just barely tweaked the warmth. It was much closer than what it seemed when chimping (maybe because it was a RAW file?).

Here are some pictures from inside the venue.

(Just a note on the pictures: I was going for a nice bright fresh look. Do you think I pushed the brightness too much? I've been going back and forth staring at them and am now going a little cross-eyed. lol And on another side note - I'm so in love with my new D700. :lust)

ExpoDisc Examples:

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5.

Matthew Saville

Honestly, I bought an Expo disc a few years ago and hardly ever use it. I actually left it in Florida with my associate photographer the last time I traveled over there to shoot a wedding with him.

This is probably a bit harsh advice, but honestly I'd return it if you can and just learn Kelvin WB. Taking a few test shots in Kelvin takes just as much time, and a LOT less frustration, as it takes to fiddle around with trying to point your expo disc in the right direction, from the right position.

Especially on a Nikon, you have direct control to the Kelvin temperature without going into a menu like on the 5D mk2 or 7D. The D300 and D700, you just hold down the WB button, and when you get to "K" just use the sub-command dial to go up and down. Once it looks close, (I sometimes use live view to get it close, top secret trick!!!) ...then I also go into the actual menu for WB and dial in the up/down (green/magenta direction) if I'm shooting in the shade of green leaves, or in certain indoor lights that have a funky / yucky color cast. Honestly I've shot in plenty of NASTY light situations, fluorescent tube bulbs, stage theater lighting, and I always just use Kelvin. It's so simple after a while, you just always know what to do. If the image is too blue, you dial it up, and if it's too red, you dial it down. It becomes 2nd nature after a while, and it's so much more convenient. Shooting a wedding, especially in a photojournalistic style, is all about being able to do more with less, being ready 100% of the time, which means fiddling around with the camera (or keeping track of other accessories) as little as possible.

On my monitor, these images certainly need a little tweaking, they are consistently off... They are a little on the cool side, which may be actual neutral but I like to err on the warm side when skin tones are involved. The bigger issue I notice is the green / magenta cast, which could definitely use one or two clicks in the down (magenta) direction on that 2-D fine tuning grid.


I'm not trying to be an ass about your latest purchast, Molly, honestly I'm a huge camera geek and that's why I bought the Expo Disc in the first place! I'm just speaking from years of experience at events and weddings, in horrible light, and trying very hard to NAIL in-camera colors. Spend that $99 on something else, and just practice nailing the Kelvin.

Oh and BTW about the brightness, I don't think it's too much, I like it. If it's too bright to me, it's less than 1/3 of a stop. Maybe just 10-20 on the brightness slider in Bridge / LR...

=Matt=

Zerodog

Great job! IMO the expo disk does help a lot with indoor lighting. These are a little cool, but that is really easy to fix. And these are close enough that even if you shot JPEG it is still an easy tweak. I think guessing is tough. That thing takes the guessing away.

On these I think your color is spot on. The images are just a tad bright. Bringing that down a little will make them a little warmer. But on the other hand these will most likely print very well as they are.

met

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Honestly, I bought an Expo disc a few years ago and hardly ever use it. I actually left it in Florida with my associate photographer the last time I traveled over there to shoot a wedding with him.

This is probably a bit harsh advice, but honestly I'd return it if you can and just learn Kelvin WB. Taking a few test shots in Kelvin takes just as much time, and a LOT less frustration, as it takes to fiddle around with trying to point your expo disc in the right direction, from the right position.

Especially on a Nikon, you have direct control to the Kelvin temperature without going into a menu like on the 5D mk2 or 7D. The D300 and D700, you just hold down the WB button, and when you get to "K" just use the sub-command dial to go up and down. Once it looks close, (I sometimes use live view to get it close, top secret trick!!!) ...then I also go into the actual menu for WB and dial in the up/down (green/magenta direction) if I'm shooting in the shade of green leaves, or in certain indoor lights that have a funky / yucky color cast. Honestly I've shot in plenty of NASTY light situations, fluorescent tube bulbs, stage theater lighting, and I always just use Kelvin. It's so simple after a while, you just always know what to do. If the image is too blue, you dial it up, and if it's too red, you dial it down. It becomes 2nd nature after a while, and it's so much more convenient. Shooting a wedding, especially in a photojournalistic style, is all about being able to do more with less, being ready 100% of the time, which means fiddling around with the camera (or keeping track of other accessories) as little as possible.

On my monitor, these images certainly need a little tweaking, they are consistently off... They are a little on the cool side, which may be actual neutral but I like to err on the warm side when skin tones are involved. The bigger issue I notice is the green / magenta cast, which could definitely use one or two clicks in the down (magenta) direction on that 2-D fine tuning grid.


I'm not trying to be an ass about your latest purchast, Molly, honestly I'm a huge camera geek and that's why I bought the Expo Disc in the first place! I'm just speaking from years of experience at events and weddings, in horrible light, and trying very hard to NAIL in-camera colors. Spend that $99 on something else, and just practice nailing the Kelvin.

Oh and BTW about the brightness, I don't think it's too much, I like it. If it's too bright to me, it's less than 1/3 of a stop. Maybe just 10-20 on the brightness slider in Bridge / LR...

=Matt=

Thanks for writing all that out. I know nothing about Kelvin white balance - which means in my mind that I need to learn it now. lol I'm at the point of starting to figure out all the other little things about my camera and manual adjustments to make. But I'm not quite ready to give up my expodisc. If even just for my peace of mind right now. I know it's kind of a pricey little item for what it is, but I just cashed in some of my amazon.com points to get it (that's what I do with all my little "splurges") so I wasn't too worried about the value.

It's funny you say that about the green/magenta thing. I see that they're a tinge green on my work monitor (I notice it around her grandmother's hair). When I was processing them on my laptop - I kept thinking they looked a tinge pink so I actually made that slight correction back towards green. The expodisc probably had it correct.

The one that I was using was the neutral versus the warmer portrait one and I was expecting to need to warm them a little. I might push them a bit warmer to compare and come back and check them on my work monitor again.

Thanks for the input on the brightness. The reason I pushed them towards the bright side is that I find whenever something looks pleasing to me on my monitor - it always seems to print darker. I was trying to think about how they would print as well. And I was also trying to go with a bright, fresh, classic look. My main goal from a technical standpoint is to get the images as close in camera as I can only needing to make minor adjustments because it is a RAW. I don't want to be too gimmicky because I feel like I want my style to stand the test of time (especially wedding pictures).

met

Zerodog wrote: »

Great job! IMO the expo disk does help a lot with indoor lighting. These are a little cool, but that is really easy to fix. And these are close enough that even if you shot JPEG it is still an easy tweak. I think guessing is tough. That thing takes the guessing away.

On these I think your color is spot on. The images are just a tad bright. Bringing that down a little will make them a little warmer. But on the other hand these will most likely print very well as they are.

Thanks! I found it really easy to use, especially since all the lighting was overhead and the same in most of the main auditorium area where the ceremony was. The printing is exactly what I was concerned with in the brightness.

insanefred

I agree with, Matt. Return it, learn how to use the direct Kelvin. Also for those unsure times, grab your self a light gray/white card. When you enter a room to make sure you take a photo of it and later in post you can just use that awesome white balance plucker. I bought a Expodisc and returned it within 5 days, I was able to get the same results, faster from just a pocket-able 3 shade gray card slip that just cost $8.
Also, not to sound too blunt, but those photos look like hospital lighting. Yes, that isn't a good thing. Tone down the brightness to give the picture a little more saturation and add a slight hint of warmth. I also see some green tint too.

Icebear

When shooting in mixed/blended/unblended lighting, like most daytime weddings, etc. a small Lastolite Digital Calibration Target is your best friend. In those conditions, I respectfully suggest that there are VERY few human beings that can guess kelvin and tint close enough to beat a "grey card" or Expodisc. The problem I found with the Expodisc (mine lives in my closet) is that it's just too hard to constantly run back and forth to shoot toward the camera position with it. It's great if you have only one source or light, or if your subject is static. Otherwise, not so much. YMMV.

ziggy53

If you have nothing else remember that you always have your own palm for color balance. Notice that I said "color balance" and not "white balance". It's often preferable to get the skin tones proper above all else.

You can use your palm and a couple of simple rules for color balance:

Working with CMYK color sampling try to keep yellow values around 28-32 percent, magenta at around 24 percent, and cyan at around 8 percent or less.

From this page at SmugMug:

http://www.smugmug.com/help/skin-tone

If you want some software that largely takes the guesswork out of setting skin tones and black point (I don't trust it for white point however), I use PictoColor® iCorrect® Portrait™. I basically start with something close in RAW conversion and then use the PictoColor iCorrect Portrait to set the final skin tones and black tones in Photoshop. It's very accurate and very fast.

Never trust an uncalibrated monitor for colors and tones. At very least search Google Images for "color calibration targets" and download a number of them onto your computer(s). Adjust the display until you see reasonable color renditions. Also print some of the targets so that you can confirm that they look accurate in print. SmugMug also comes to the rescue with their own target:

http://www.smugmug.com/img/help/calibration-print-1400-2.jpg

For more information about techniques to achieve white balance, color balance and setting up your monitor please check our Techniques forum.

Icebear

Wait! Wait! Is that an Expodisc in the Smugmug calibration image????

Dan7312

Someone must have confused it with a gray card

Icebear wrote: »

Wait! Wait! Is that an Expodisc in the Smugmug calibration image????

Matthew Saville

met wrote: »

It's funny you say that about the green/magenta thing. I see that they're a tinge green on my work monitor (I notice it around her grandmother's hair). When I was processing them on my laptop - I kept thinking they looked a tinge pink so I actually made that slight correction back towards green. The expodisc probably had it correct.

The one that I was using was the neutral versus the warmer portrait one and I was expecting to need to warm them a little. I might push them a bit warmer to compare and come back and check them on my work monitor again.

MAKE PRINTS! Trusting one monitor versus another is just a really, really bad idea unless it is a decently high-end monitor and has been calibrated recently. Either way it is the print that has the final say.

Looking through thousands of4x6's when I first stared shooting digital is definitely one of the best things I did for my white balance skills.

Unless you need to shoot below 2500 Kelvin, which is really a B&W situation anyways, ...Kelvin can give you everything that an Expo Disc can. So I would definitely work on it at EVERY shoot. Eventually, you will find that just setting Kelvin WB is far faster and less cumbersome than having to fiddle with an Expo Disc.

I will admit, it was a good learning tool while I owned / used it. But as big of a geek as I am, it eventually started collecting dust.

=Matt=

Zerodog

The expo disk saves me time and aggravation for weird mixed light shooting. The results are consistent and predictable. have tried kelvin and it is just too time consuming chimping the shots for me. If I had a meter that told me the kelvin temp that would be sweet. But for now, I pop on my disk, shoot up at the main lights or back to where I am positioned and that is it.

Dan7312

I know I could set the WB as a Kelvin temp, but I don't understand how in practice you eyeball a Kelvin temp, so I've got a couple of questions. It sounds like a really neat technique but I don't think I really understand the details.

Is the process to start by setting the Kelvin temp to about what you think it is, take a picture, look at the LCD on the back of the camera and dial down if to red, up if too blue, and then repeat 'till it looks right?

I don't think the LCD is color calibarated and the what it ends up with the profile you choose (like landscape, that sort of thing). Do you use a particular profile, like Faithful for Canon? I think the ambient light itself can affect how your precieve colors in the LCD too.

Are you saying that with this technique the WB will be close enough so that even if you are shooting jpg there will be enough room to do a final WB adjustment in LR or PS?

In LR and PS there is both a Kelvin temp and a tint for WB. With this technique are you saying the only thing you will have to adjust is the tint in post?

Sorry for some many questions but I would like to try this technique out.

TIA.

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Honestly, I bought an Expo disc a few years ago and hardly ever use it. I actually left it in Florida with my associate photographer the last time I traveled over there to shoot a wedding with him.

This is probably a bit harsh advice, but honestly I'd return it if you can and just learn Kelvin WB. Taking a few test shots in Kelvin takes just as much time, and a LOT less frustration, as it takes to fiddle around with trying to point your expo disc in the right direction, from the right position.

Especially on a Nikon, you have direct control to the Kelvin temperature without going into a menu like on the 5D mk2 or 7D. The D300 and D700, you just hold down the WB button, and when you get to "K" just use the sub-command dial to go up and down. Once it looks close, (I sometimes use live view to get it close, top secret trick!!!) ...then I also go into the actual menu for WB and dial in the up/down (green/magenta direction) if I'm shooting in the shade of green leaves, or in certain indoor lights that have a funky / yucky color cast. Honestly I've shot in plenty of NASTY light situations, fluorescent tube bulbs, stage theater lighting, and I always just use Kelvin. It's so simple after a while, you just always know what to do. If the image is too blue, you dial it up, and if it's too red, you dial it down. It becomes 2nd nature after a while, and it's so much more convenient. Shooting a wedding, especially in a photojournalistic style, is all about being able to do more with less, being ready 100% of the time, which means fiddling around with the camera (or keeping track of other accessories) as little as possible.

On my monitor, these images certainly need a little tweaking, they are consistently off... They are a little on the cool side, which may be actual neutral but I like to err on the warm side when skin tones are involved. The bigger issue I notice is the green / magenta cast, which could definitely use one or two clicks in the down (magenta) direction on that 2-D fine tuning grid.


I'm not trying to be an ass about your latest purchast, Molly, honestly I'm a huge camera geek and that's why I bought the Expo Disc in the first place! I'm just speaking from years of experience at events and weddings, in horrible light, and trying very hard to NAIL in-camera colors. Spend that $99 on something else, and just practice nailing the Kelvin.

Oh and BTW about the brightness, I don't think it's too much, I like it. If it's too bright to me, it's less than 1/3 of a stop. Maybe just 10-20 on the brightness slider in Bridge / LR...

=Matt=

insanefred

Zerodog wrote: »

The expo disk saves me time and aggravation for weird mixed light shooting. The results are consistent and predictable. have tried kelvin and it is just too time consuming chimping the shots for me. If I had a meter that told me the kelvin temp that would be sweet. But for now, I pop on my disk, shoot up at the main lights or back to where I am positioned and that is it.

Why not just use a $8 white card for this?

Dan7312 wrote: »

I know I could set the WB as a Kelvin temp, but I don't understand how in practice you eyeball a Kelvin temp, so I've got a couple of questions. It sounds like a really neat technique but I don't think I really understand the details.

Is the process to start by setting the Kelvin temp to about what you think it is, take a picture, look at the LCD on the back of the camera and dial down if to red, up if too blue, and then repeat 'till it looks right?

I don't think the LCD is color calibarated and the what it ends up with the profile you choose (like landscape, that sort of thing). Do you use a particular profile, like Faithful for Canon? I think the ambient light itself can affect how your precieve colors in the LCD too.

Are you saying that with this technique the WB will be close enough so that even if you are shooting jpg there will be enough room to do a final WB adjustment in LR or PS?

In LR and PS there is both a Kelvin temp and a tint for WB. With this technique are you saying the only thing you will have to adjust is the tint in post?

Sorry for some many questions but I would like to try this technique out.

TIA.

The trick is to turn on "LIVE VIEW" point your camera at the subject, adjust your white balance with the Kelvin adjusting it to get as close as you can or accuracy or to taste. Is it suppose to be 100% accurate? Nope, but you probably wouldn't want perfectly accurate WB for portraits anyways.
I suggest you ALSO bring a small white card/ light gray card for later use.

Art Scott

$8 for a white balance card.....I have used for years (starting in TV)...white balance with a 4x6 note card....they are bright white and cost ~~$1 for a pack of 50...blank without lines.......your good to go.....or take a pic of someones white shirt or white tee shirt.......it is not rocket science but can seem so if some one is real techie trying to explain it.....

Zerodog

Ok I am waiting for socks now........someone please say socks!

Yes there are lots of ways to do it, some ways more accurate than others and some are easier than others. I also have and love a lastolite pop out gray card/ disk. I like it, but it is slower. If I am doing any flash photography someone is holding that card in a scene. Shoot RAW on auto WB then fix all in PP syncing WB to the disk. The drawback to the expodisk is that it is almost useless with flash. I find the expodisk to be the most reliable way to get WB "for me" with ambient light. And I mean weird ambient light. Like a red floor, purple and blue accent lights, stage lights all mixed with florescent, then while you are at it, throw in a nice big window. If you guys like gray cards, kelvin, socks, t shirts, whatever that is cool. Most of the time it all needs to get a bit of tweaking in PP to be right for your taste. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with. If I lost my expodisk, I would plunk down another $90 in a second to get a new one. It is with me at every event shoot I do.

Dan7312

That works! That a really nice way to set WB. I can't find a way to change the Kelvin temp without losing the Live View, but it's pretty quick to bounce back and forth between the WB menu and Live view.

insanefred wrote: »

Why not just use a $8 white card for this?




The trick is to turn on "LIVE VIEW" point your camera at the subject, adjust your white balance with the Kelvin adjusting it to get as close as you can or accuracy or to taste. Is it suppose to be 100% accurate? Nope, but you probably wouldn't want perfectly accurate WB for portraits anyways.
I suggest you ALSO bring a small white card/ light gray card for later use.

insanefred

Dan7312 wrote: »

That works! That a really nice way to set WB. I can't find a way to change the Kelvin temp without losing the Live View, but it's pretty quick to bounce back and forth between the WB menu and Live view.

How are you NOT able to do it in Live view?

Dan7312

You can't adjust the kelvin temp while you looking at Live View. You switch to the menu for WB, adjust the Kelvin then switch back to Live View. Rinse, Repeat until clean.

insanefred wrote: »

How are you NOT able to do it in Live view?

Matthew Saville

Zerodog wrote: »

The expo disk saves me time and aggravation for weird mixed light shooting. The results are consistent and predictable. have tried kelvin and it is just too time consuming chimping the shots for me. If I had a meter that told me the kelvin temp that would be sweet. But for now, I pop on my disk, shoot up at the main lights or back to where I am positioned and that is it.

If we ever cross paths, I'll race you. ;-)

Matthew Saville

Dan7312 wrote: »

I know I could set the WB as a Kelvin temp, but I don't understand how in practice you eyeball a Kelvin temp, so I've got a couple of questions. It sounds like a really neat technique but I don't think I really understand the details.

Is the process to start by setting the Kelvin temp to about what you think it is, take a picture, look at the LCD on the back of the camera and dial down if to red, up if too blue, and then repeat 'till it looks right?

I don't think the LCD is color calibarated and the what it ends up with the profile you choose (like landscape, that sort of thing). Do you use a particular profile, like Faithful for Canon? I think the ambient light itself can affect how your precieve colors in the LCD too.

Are you saying that with this technique the WB will be close enough so that even if you are shooting jpg there will be enough room to do a final WB adjustment in LR or PS?

In LR and PS there is both a Kelvin temp and a tint for WB. With this technique are you saying the only thing you will have to adjust is the tint in post?

Sorry for some many questions but I would like to try this technique out.

TIA.

Actually, you can adjust even the "tint" parameter in-camera and have it be recognized by the various raw conversion programs. It's in the WB fine tuning menu, the vertical axis of a two-dimensional grid.

And yes, the LCD on the back of the camera is not calibrated, and not totally accurate. But after you get to know your camera, and the Nikon / Canon color response in general, it just comes naturally. That's really all I can say, based on personal experience. I use the various profiles depending on the shooting condition; vivid for details, neutral for low light, etc. etc. (Nikon. But on Canon yeah I use faithful, landscape, and portrait...)

Honestly, you're welcome to use whatever method works best for you. I'm just posting my experience on what works best for me, having bought an Expo Disc and eventually realized that something else worked much better for me. Either way, happy shooting!

=Matt=

Matthew Saville

Zerodog wrote: »

Ok I am waiting for socks now........someone please say socks!

Yes there are lots of ways to do it, some ways more accurate than others and some are easier than others. I also have and love a lastolite pop out gray card/ disk. I like it, but it is slower. If I am doing any flash photography someone is holding that card in a scene. Shoot RAW on auto WB then fix all in PP syncing WB to the disk. The drawback to the expodisk is that it is almost useless with flash. I find the expodisk to be the most reliable way to get WB "for me" with ambient light. And I mean weird ambient light. Like a red floor, purple and blue accent lights, stage lights all mixed with florescent, then while you are at it, throw in a nice big window. If you guys like gray cards, kelvin, socks, t shirts, whatever that is cool. Most of the time it all needs to get a bit of tweaking in PP to be right for your taste. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with. If I lost my expodisk, I would plunk down another $90 in a second to get a new one. It is with me at every event shoot I do.

Again, whatever works for folks! I left my Expo Disc in Florida with a friend many months ago and don't miss it at all.

I also shoot stage / theater jobs regularly, and still use Kelvin. My brain just thinks that way.


(Un-edited SOOC file)


=Matt=

Matthew Saville

Dan7312 wrote: »

You can't adjust the kelvin temp while you looking at Live View. You switch to the menu for WB, adjust the Kelvin then switch back to Live View. Rinse, Repeat until clean.

What camera are you using? All (Nikon) cameras that I know of that have either Kelvin or Live View allow the adjustment during live view.

=Matt=

Dan7312

It's a Canon 7D. In live view there is an icon that says the WB is "K", but I don't see any way to change it without swithing to the WB menue.

Matthew Saville wrote: »

What camera are you using? All (Nikon) cameras that I know of that have either Kelvin or Live View allow the adjustment during live view.

=Matt=

Dan7312

I found it, you can adjust the Kelvin temp while in live view. The is really neat.

I don't see a way to adjust the tint without switching to the menu.

BTW while in LiveView you press the WB button the the top of the camera, just as you would do if you were not in Live View.

Thanks for this pointer Matt!

Matthew Saville wrote: »

What camera are you using? All (Nikon) cameras that I know of that have either Kelvin or Live View allow the adjustment during live view.

=Matt=

Zerodog

Matthew Saville wrote: »

If we ever cross paths, I'll race you. ;-)

Your on!! Ha!

This is a good discussion.

photogreen

this monitor of mine here is not calibrated, but it has some reasonable colors... so, to me, it looks like you have succeeded there. good job!

ImageX Photography

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Once it looks close, (I sometimes use live view to get it close, top secret trick!!!)

That's awesome. It's one of those "Why didn't I think of that" things. lol I trust that method much more than I would some overpriced piece of plastic. It's even easier and probably more accurate as long as you have good eyes and know your LCD colors. I see myself using the live view method often now. Thanks! You are one of the most helpful guys on this forum!

PS I don't know why people even spend a lot of money for WB gadgets. There are all kinds of free things laying around that you can use. Plus, if there is white in a scene... use it. Save the $100 for something else more valuable.

Icebear

ImageX Photography wrote: »

Plus, if there is white in a scene... use it. Save the $100 for something else more valuable.

There's white, then there's white, then there's white. Ask any wedding photographer.

Zerodog

Icebear wrote: »

There's white, then there's white, then there's white. Ask any wedding photographer.

Exactly! This is why gray cards are a neutral gray. And the many various other devices are calibrated for some sort of perfect neutral tone for WB. White is not white most of the time. Neither is black. And color casts can fool your eye too.

ziggy53

If you can see the whites in peoples' eyes, that's usually a good choice for neutral balance as it's not too influenced by ultra violet from a flash. "White" dresses, shirts and paper "can" be influenced by UV but they are better than nothing and they can be a pretty good starting point.

Again, I like to start with flash tones and get them close to normal balance first. My own palm makes a pretty good "target" if I have nothing else available. Then I do blacks and then I finish with whites. Shadows may be different than blacks and they sometimes need an extra step if there is mixed lighting (generally meaning light that's not from my sources.)

To do all of this convincingly in difficult light can require layers and blending techniques.

PictoColor iCorrect Portrait is a very fast way to automate much of the process inside of Photoshop. It appears to use curves to allow natural looking flesh tones along with automated black point. It will set a white point too but it does too much clipping in the highlights for my taste (and no adjustments available.) It works with flesh tones from many ethnicities. It's also layer sensitive so I can create a new layer and just apply the results to that layer and then blend the 2 layers back in Photoshop to the amounts that I want and the tones that I want.