C&C Please

SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
edited April 16, 2011 in People
Here are three from my recent dance school shoot. This is a little different for me so any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Sam

1245372249_mvYZv-M.jpg

1245372854_zmVC5-M.jpg

1245373407_rAWuH-M.jpg

Comments

  • kevingearykevingeary Registered Users Posts: 194 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    I like them. Are the backgrounds digital?
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    kevingeary wrote: »
    I like them. Are the backgrounds digital?

    Thanks! Yes the backgrounds are digital. Much easier than putting her on the space shuttle, having her hold her breath, all with the chance of loosing her. :D

    Sam
  • kevingearykevingeary Registered Users Posts: 194 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    Sam wrote: »
    Thanks! Yes the backgrounds are digital. Much easier than putting her on the space shuttle, having her hold her breath, all with the chance of loosing her. :D

    Sam

    Did you shoot against a green screen or just a solid color?
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    kevingeary wrote: »
    Did you shoot against a green screen or just a solid color?

    In this case I shot against a dark green cloth. I suggested and would have preferred to use a chroma key green but the client wanted to use the background he had.

    Sam
  • reyvee61reyvee61 Registered Users Posts: 1,877 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    Sam these are fantastic...what can I say?
    Love the splash of colors!
    Yo soy Reynaldo
  • HackboneHackbone Registered Users Posts: 4,027 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    Sam, very nice job with the digital bkgs. Could you go into more detail on how you did them and the lighting. I'm just starting to research this.
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    Personally I find the backgrounds way too busy and bright and really bit of an eyesore. They also appear to go against a number of basic rules of portriature and in this case I don't feel work at all.

    They definately distract the eye of the viewer from the subject and the feeling one gets when looking at them is like being smacked in the eye s with a bright light.
    There isn't enough seperation between the subject and the background and they are blending together which make it difficult to discern the lines of the subject and the background.
  • reyvee61reyvee61 Registered Users Posts: 1,877 Major grins
    edited April 9, 2011
    Glort wrote: »
    Personally I find the backgrounds way too busy and bright and really bit of an eyesore. They also appear to go against a number of basic rules of portriature and in this case I don't feel work at all.

    They definately distract the eye of the viewer from the subject and the feeling one gets when looking at them is like being smacked in the eye s with a bright light.
    There isn't enough seperation between the subject and the background and they are blending together which make it difficult to discern the lines of the subject and the background.

    Interesting take on these...I view them as a "package" the subject and background complimenting each other in a new and exciting way.
    From a traditional standpoint though I see where you are coming from...
    Yo soy Reynaldo
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 10, 2011
    Glort wrote: »
    Personally I find the backgrounds way too busy and bright and really bit of an eyesore. They also appear to go against a number of basic rules of portriature and in this case I don't feel work at all.

    They definately distract the eye of the viewer from the subject and the feeling one gets when looking at them is like being smacked in the eye s with a bright light.
    There isn't enough seperation between the subject and the background and they are blending together which make it difficult to discern the lines of the subject and the background.

    I can see your point. While I can see this isn't your cup of tea, your comment on the separation was good and I played with lowering the brightness and applying some Gaussian blur to the background and I think I like the results.

    Sam

    ps: I can't recall ever seeing any of your photography. I and I am sure many others would love to see some of your images.
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 10, 2011
    Hackbone wrote: »
    Sam, very nice job with the digital bkgs. Could you go into more detail on how you did them and the lighting. I'm just starting to research this.

    The lighting for this was very simple. Basically I used two AB800 with softboxes in front of the dance / photo area. The client wanted the images taken with the express intent of extracting the dancers and using them in a number of colleges.

    Once set up I did vary the power and position of lights occasionally for groups and shots with the dancers posing on a diagonal line, with the lead dancer close to one light and the rest increasing the distance from the light on a diagonal. For single dancers who positioned themselves at various distances from the lights, I used the aperture to control the exposure. I used apertures of f8 to f11 to get a nice DOF and allow me to any convenient focus point at or near the front of the dancers.

    The client has done this the past two years and his collages have all included bright colored backgrounds, hence my attempt at using bright backgrounds.

    Then I extracted the dancers and placed them on a transparent background. After that I am free to choose any image I want as a base or bottom layer.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Sam
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited April 10, 2011
    Sam wrote: »
    I can see your point. While I can see this isn't your cup of tea, your comment on the separation was good and I played with lowering the brightness and applying some Gaussian blur to the background and I think I like the results.

    Sam

    ps: I can't recall ever seeing any of your photography. I and I am sure many others would love to see some of your images.

    I also think that maybe the images you have put here may have been bad choices from the POV that you seem to have picked outfits that go very well with the background which unfortunately added to them blending in.
    Contrasting backgrounds/ outfits may eliminate these problems if they don't go the other way and clash making an eyesore.
    that can be a problem with more elaborate backgrounds. With teh right outfits they look awsome but they also have a narrower margin of what looks great and what looks like a train crash.

    As for posting pics on forums, I honestly have no interest in it.
    Did it years ago and found it pointless.
    People would tell me that the very effect I went to pains to achieve was wrong when i got that part spot on to what I wanted and would nitpick the insignificant things while missing the overall idea and concept.
    I also have little concern about what other photographers think from their POV. It's the customers that count as my interest is in making money not pretty pictures. I spend a lot of time asking my clients for opinions and feedback.

    I consistantly prove that the best pictures are not the best sellers so my priority is to get what the people want to buy, which has little to do with being the best photograph.

    I highly suspect your pictures would be a prime example. Don't matter a toss what I or any other shooter thinks. If the customers buy them then they are successful.

    Besides that, my pictures are all pretty bread and butter these days and nothing at all exciting although the glam shots I did on the weekend was pretty happy with but i'm not too sure if nudity is allowed here if I had any inclination to put them up anyway.
  • Bryce WilsonBryce Wilson Registered Users Posts: 1,586 Major grins
    edited April 10, 2011
    Frankly Sam, I think the backgrounds on number one and number three work nicely with the outfits and compliment rather than detract from the finished product. I have no doubt that a mom and dad would absolutely love them.

    On number two in the yellow, I have to side with the "it's distracting" point of view. Now, if the background were reversed, as in the yellow area of the background were black and the black area yellow, I think it would be spectacular.
  • metmet Registered Users Posts: 405 Major grins
    edited April 12, 2011
    To be honest, I usually don't like imposed backgrounds, but I quite like them here. I think they're fun and they work. It almost has a carnival feel, which lends itself to her costumes. #2 is my favorite. I do think that it is a little distracting in #3, perhaps because there are smaller elements and more colors to the background and it's a closer face portrait.
  • Mike JMike J Registered Users Posts: 1,029 Major grins
    edited April 13, 2011
    Frankly Sam, I think the backgrounds on number one and number three work nicely with the outfits and compliment rather than detract from the finished product. I have no doubt that a mom and dad would absolutely love them.

    On number two in the yellow, I have to side with the "it's distracting" point of view. Now, if the background were reversed, as in the yellow area of the background were black and the black area yellow, I think it would be spectacular.
    +1 Number 3 is my favorite. I think the BG works really well for this one. The BG in #2 is my least favorite but I do like the diagonal line her legs form in this one.
    Mike J

    Comments and constructive criticism always welcome.
    www.mikejulianaphotography.com
    Facebook
  • PupWebPupWeb Registered Users Posts: 166 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    well done Sam overall, too be critical the girl in #1 needs a shadow to ground her. Maybe there is a shadow and the bckgnd hides it. The bckgnd is very dark but it looks like she is floating.
  • sara505sara505 Registered Users Posts: 1,684 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    Glort wrote: »
    I also think that maybe the images you have put here may have been bad choices from the POV that you seem to have picked outfits that go very well with the background which unfortunately added to them blending in.
    Contrasting backgrounds/ outfits may eliminate these problems if they don't go the other way and clash making an eyesore.
    that can be a problem with more elaborate backgrounds. With teh right outfits they look awsome but they also have a narrower margin of what looks great and what looks like a train crash.

    As for posting pics on forums, I honestly have no interest in it.
    Did it years ago and found it pointless.
    People would tell me that the very effect I went to pains to achieve was wrong when i got that part spot on to what I wanted and would nitpick the insignificant things while missing the overall idea and concept.
    I also have little concern about what other photographers think from their POV. It's the customers that count as my interest is in making money not pretty pictures. I spend a lot of time asking my clients for opinions and feedback.

    I consistantly prove that the best pictures are not the best sellers so my priority is to get what the people want to buy, which has little to do with being the best photograph.

    I highly suspect your pictures would be a prime example. Don't matter a toss what I or any other shooter thinks. If the customers buy them then they are successful.

    Besides that, my pictures are all pretty bread and butter these days and nothing at all exciting although the glam shots I did on the weekend was pretty happy with but i'm not too sure if nudity is allowed here if I had any inclination to put them up anyway.

    Seems only fair that if you want to dish out advice, you ought to be able to take a little. Your attitude seems rather one-sided, to be honest. You are not concerned with what other photographers think about your work, yet you are long with advice. Sorry, but I don't quite get this.
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    sara505 wrote: »
    Seems only fair that if you want to dish out advice, you ought to be able to take a little. Your attitude seems rather one-sided, to be honest. You are not concerned with what other photographers think about your work, yet you are long with advice. Sorry, but I don't quite get this.

    Other people have asked for advice. I gave them my thoughts accordingly.
    As for "Dish out advise", I gave an honest opinion of what i thought and reasons why. I was not trying to one up or put anyone down.

    I don't ask for advice. I am not concerned with what other photographers think but if others are and ask for opinions, on rare occasions I give them what they wanted.

    I don't see why I should have to ask for advise I don't want in order to be qualified to give it to people that do want it?

    I am not interested in other photographers opinions. I have never sold anything to another photographer yet. My clients, the people that do pay me are non photographers and I do ask for their opinions because theirs is the one that matters to me. In past experience it has always been totally different to that I get from other photographers so the customers opinion is the important one and I said that very thing of my own advise right here.

    If you see anything fundamentally wrong with what i said in my comments other than what comes down to opinion or taste, please point it out as i'm happy to learn from that.
  • zoomerzoomer Registered Users Posts: 3,688 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    Glort you just keep doing your thing, you add a lot to these forums.

    As to the pictures.
    I love the expression you got on the first one.

    I will address the backgrounds as it seems to have become an issue.
    What is the subject, is it the dancer or the background....I think you need to pick either or....it can't be both.
    In these shots there is a lot of competition between the two.

    The shots are good and I am sure some people will love them exactly like they are....if they are selling like hotcakes...good for you. If you feel the need to improve them artistically, lose the competing backgrounds and bring the focus back to the dancer.

    How long does it take to add the backgrounds?
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    Glort,

    To be clear I am not offended by your remarks regarding these or any other photos I post.

    I value the forums input. I allows me (and others) to see my (their) photography from someone else's eyes and mind. No one can do that by themselves. I look, read, think about it, evaluate and come to my own conclusion.

    Yes, photographers will see images differently than clients. While the clients are the ones who buy, it's the photographers who can help you / me produce better images. Clients will most likely not be able to articulate why they may like / buy one image over another but they invariably know the difference between one photo and a better photo.

    Most here are focusing on creating better images, whether that's from a technical point or a creative point so most of the discussions here revolve around that view point.

    We also share for the sake of sharing. (It's a social thing.)

    You are the only participant (to my knowledge) on this board who has said they don't or have an interest in taking pretty pictures, but only has an interest in making money.

    Since you seem to be unique in this area it would be interesting to see your less than pretty pictures (by your own statement) you sell. I / we could see the image quality / quantity and learn how event image quality / quantity / availability / etc effects sales and financial success.

    This is a photography forum. photography is a visual thing, and yes images can substantiate a certain level of credibility.

    Lets face it you can be rather blunt in your opinions and evaluations. perhaps Sara (I know I do) would like to see some of your images. We don't need to comment just see. (It's a photography thing.) Are you yourself to thin skinned to share?

    Also please note we do have a place to post nude photos on Digital Grin. There is a go figure forum within the people category.

    Sam
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    zoomer wrote: »
    Glort you just keep doing your thing, you add a lot to these forums.

    As to the pictures.
    I love the expression you got on the first one.

    I will address the backgrounds as it seems to have become an issue.
    What is the subject, is it the dancer or the background....I think you need to pick either or....it can't be both.
    In these shots there is a lot of competition between the two.

    The shots are good and I am sure some people will love them exactly like they are....if they are selling like hotcakes...good for you. If you feel the need to improve them artistically, lose the competing backgrounds and bring the focus back to the dancer.

    How long does it take to add the backgrounds?

    Hi Zoomer,

    Yes I think I agree on the background thing. I have played around with subduing the background and I believe it improved the photos.

    As to adding the background...............That's very simple, it takes more time to find a suitable background that combining them. Simply copy the extracted dancer and place them on a layer above the background layer. The exception is extracting the dancers. This has proved to be challenging. These dancers take me about 30 to 45 minutes to extract / mask.

    Sam
  • zoomerzoomer Registered Users Posts: 3,688 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    I kind of thought you were going to say it took awhile....that would get old fast :).
  • sara505sara505 Registered Users Posts: 1,684 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    Glort wrote: »
    Other people have asked for advice. I gave them my thoughts accordingly.
    As for "Dish out advise", I gave an honest opinion of what i thought and reasons why. I was not trying to one up or put anyone down.

    I don't ask for advice. I am not concerned with what other photographers think but if others are and ask for opinions, on rare occasions I give them what they wanted.

    I don't see why I should have to ask for advise I don't want in order to be qualified to give it to people that do want it?

    I am not interested in other photographers opinions. I have never sold anything to another photographer yet. My clients, the people that do pay me are non photographers and I do ask for their opinions because theirs is the one that matters to me. In past experience it has always been totally different to that I get from other photographers so the customers opinion is the important one and I said that very thing of my own advise right here.

    If you see anything fundamentally wrong with what i said in my comments other than what comes down to opinion or taste, please point it out as i'm happy to learn from that.

    The fact that you don't value opinions from other photographers, while offering frequent advice, yourself, just strikes me as odd. That's all. I would not feel comfortable doing this - maybe as a matter of etiquette, I don't know - but there certainly aren't any rules on this matter. Different strokes for different folks. And yes, it would be interesting to see your photographs. I agree, everyone adds his or her own perspective and it's all of value. It just struck me as curious, what you said.
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    sara505 wrote: »
    The fact that you don't value opinions from other photographers, while offering frequent advice, yourself, just strikes me as odd. That's all. I would not feel comfortable doing this - maybe as a matter of etiquette, I don't know - but there certainly aren't any rules on this matter. Different strokes for different folks. And yes, it would be interesting to see your photographs. I agree, everyone adds his or her own perspective and it's all of value. It just struck me as curious, what you said.

    Perhaps i should clarify... I do value opinions from other photographers that KNOW me, as they understand where I am coming from and the goals i am chasing. I have found the feedback from forums I have recieved to be useless basicaly. There is a lot that is lost ( or erronously percieved) in the written word particularly of forums it seems. Obviously i'm a rarity in a lot of things and this appears to be another of them.

    While i do try and share my experience, it is usualy in business and technical aspects. I rarely comment on photographs and this instance is exactly why. I only did it in this case because I thought the OP would take it on board without throwing a hissy fit like so many others in the past have when I haven't spouted forth with rainbows and sun shine. While the OP has been fine with what I have said, it appears I have gone and upset someone else. Clearly I don't have the tact or qualification to comment on Photographs so I will refrain till I next forget and have to re-learn my lesson.

    Sara, I will try to be as careful as i can not to comment on anything you ask for critique on.
    If I should forget that, Please remind me and i will apologise and remove any comments i have made immeadiately.

    Sorry to detract from your thread Sam.
  • sara505sara505 Registered Users Posts: 1,684 Major grins
    edited April 14, 2011
    Glort wrote: »
    Perhaps i should clarify... I do value opinions from other photographers that KNOW me, as they understand where I am coming from and the goals i am chasing. I have found the feedback from forums I have recieved to be useless basicaly. There is a lot that is lost ( or erronously percieved) in the written word particularly of forums it seems. Obviously i'm a rarity in a lot of things and this appears to be another of them.

    While i do try and share my experience, it is usualy in business and technical aspects. I rarely comment on photographs and this instance is exactly why. I only did it in this case because I thought the OP would take it on board without throwing a hissy fit like so many others in the past have when I haven't spouted forth with rainbows and sun shine. While the OP has been fine with what I have said, it appears I have gone and upset someone else. Clearly I don't have the tact or qualification to comment on Photographs so I will refrain till I next forget and have to re-learn my lesson.

    Sara, I will try to be as careful as i can not to comment on anything you ask for critique on.
    If I should forget that, Please remind me and i will apologise and remove any comments i have made immeadiately.

    Sorry to detract from your thread Sam.

    Dear Glort,
    You are welcome to comment on anything you'd like to comment on. Sorry you interpreted my remarks as anything otherwise.
  • sara505sara505 Registered Users Posts: 1,684 Major grins
    edited April 15, 2011
    Oh, and Sam - I love your shots, especially #1 and #3. #2 is adorable but the little girl is lost in background.
    But very nice work, overall clap.gifclapclap.gif
  • PupWebPupWeb Registered Users Posts: 166 Major grins
    edited April 16, 2011
    Sam wrote: »
    Hi Zoomer,

    Yes I think I agree on the background thing. I have played around with subduing the background and I believe it improved the photos.

    As to adding the background...............That's very simple, it takes more time to find a suitable background that combining them. Simply copy the extracted dancer and place them on a layer above the background layer. The exception is extracting the dancers. This has proved to be challenging. These dancers take me about 30 to 45 minutes to extract / mask.

    Sam
    I fell your pain with extracting the dancer, a pen pad makes it a little faster. The hair is what takes the longest.
    I have shot chroma-key but I get so much color spill do to the limited space I have for these shoots I spend more time trying to fix that. I just shoot with a white background and extract in PS. I even have Express Digital Darkroom where clients can pick their background real time when shooting chromakey but I stopped shooting chromakey b/c of the color spill. Reflecmedia Chromatte looks like it would work but it cost waaaayy to much.
  • angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited April 16, 2011
    Sam wrote: »
    Here are three from my recent dance school shoot. This is a little different for me so any comments would be appreciated.

    Thanks!!

    Sam

    1245372249_mvYZv-M.jpg

    1245372854_zmVC5-M.jpg

    1245373407_rAWuH-M.jpg


    Hey Sam! I was looking fwd. to seeing these images. I remember you talking about them in the tech forum, er some such.
    Great Work! I bet the client was pleased and I am certain the kids parents will be. For me this would be a tough assignment simply because it is outside the age range and style I typically shoot. So looking at these is inspiring. Judging by the girls, and their attire, I'd venture to say that they love busy backgrounds with lots of colors. I can imagine these in lots of different BG's but like I said, bet they like 'em!

    Cheers,

    ps: if you have any Pull-backs, please do post them to the Pull-back thread that HackBone Started here in people.
    tom wise
  • angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited April 16, 2011
    Glort wrote: »
    Perhaps i should clarify... I do value opinions from other photographers that KNOW me, as they understand where I am coming from and the goals i am chasing. I have found the feedback from forums I have recieved to be useless basicaly. There is a lot that is lost ( or erronously percieved) in the written word particularly of forums it seems. Obviously i'm a rarity in a lot of things and this appears to be another of them.

    While i do try and share my experience, it is usualy in business and technical aspects. I rarely comment on photographs and this instance is exactly why. I only did it in this case because I thought the OP would take it on board without throwing a hissy fit like so many others in the past have when I haven't spouted forth with rainbows and sun shine. While the OP has been fine with what I have said, it appears I have gone and upset someone else. Clearly I don't have the tact or qualification to comment on Photographs so I will refrain till I next forget and have to re-learn my lesson. .

    When someone asks for critique and comments, that is what they want. And unless you attack the photog, all comments and critical commentary are allowed. It isn't necessary to post photos as in a give and take aspect for one to be qualified to comment and critique. And if I may interject my own contributions, I rarely post for critique for a very good reason: I either love my photo, so don't require feedback. Or I see so many errors, that asking for feedback would be akin to asking folks if they like the smell of my trashcan. I tend to post only when I think it conveys a point. But I adore looking at others posts, because I learn so much.

    Personally I value most of the posters here simply because their opinions are so diverse and often very different from mine. Without that litmus, I would be bored to death!

    Cheers,
    tom wise
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