Is a 8 page wedding contract too much?

wildviper · April 13, 2011

I have been adding text after text to my wedding contract and now it has reached 8 pages. Granted the text size is big so that it is clear and there are headlines and such to each section.....even then..is 8 pages way too much?

If I use 9point font it is 5 pages....5 pages much? What is the norm?

I do not want to scare away the brides, but at the same time, have to protect myself.

Most of the text is to cover myself from unforseen circumstances and to avoid future complaints.

I can't paste the contract here for obvious reasons.

Glort · April 13, 2011

Is a 8 page wedding contract too much?

Only by about 7 pages.

If you're that paranoid, I think you are in the wrong game.

wildviper · April 13, 2011

Thanx.

I guess I am paranoid and maybe in the wrong business....then again, I also do not want to go out of business cause I didn't have a "rock solid" contract and that one client takes me to the cleaners!

There's a passion side of photography...and then there's the business side of photography! Tough choice!

Anyone else?

P.S.: I know there is no such thing as "rock solid"...I know someone will point that out...so..there it is. I mean it to be as good as it can be without preparing a manifesto!

moose135 · April 13, 2011

At this point, you might want to ask a lawyer to review it - he can probably give you better advice than a forum full of photographers as to what really needs to be in a contract, and where you might be going overboard.

wildviper · April 13, 2011

Actually I do have an attorney that I will have this looked at. But, I wanted to see what the norm was out there...and if 8 pages was waaaaaay overkill or what? Attorney would prolly make it longer if they have their way.

Art Scott · April 13, 2011

Glort wrote: »

Only by about 7 pages.

If you're that paranoid, I think you are in the wrong game.

I agree here and will also add....if you're writing up 8 pages that will scare off any prospective client.....you might want to engage the help of a contract attorney.....seriously.

Glort · April 13, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

...if you're writing up 8 pages that will scare off any prospective client....

Exactly.
The only thing I can ever remember buying that had an 8 page contract attached was a house.
And then i'm not sure it was quite that long.

If anyone did offer me an 8 page contract, I'd not sign it till I took it to a laywer and then i'd think if I was going to have to do that I may as well just find someone else whom had terms i could understand.

I have have no doubt an 8 page contract will protect you all right, protect you from ever getting any clients or doing any business.
But what would I know about the business of photography?
Only been in it doing weddings 27 years.

chrisjohnson · April 14, 2011

In my 6 pager the liability part is very small. Most is a description of how we are going to do the business, what is included in the fee and what is not (ie travel), when invoices will be sent and how quickly to pay, how to cancel, how to handle complaints, addresses, signatures, company registration details and all such good stuff. Any particular details about a particular assignment are in a one page Appendix.

So if your contract is 8 pages mostly about covering your butt then it sounds like you are missing the point.

You should give it to a lawyer to check, or even to get a template, but most of it you should write yourself as clearly as you can because it essentially describes the service you are going to deliver. And actually it sounds like other wedding photographers will be more helpful at this point than the average lawyer.

If I was you I would aim to keep it as short as I could. You want to walk the customer through the main points and confirm they have a clear view on how the business side is going to work.

wildviper · April 14, 2011

Well, perhaps I needed to be more clear...the 8 page contract actual protects them as well as I. And MOST of it is in describing what they get, what they can expect, what I can expect. Just as goldenballs said....that is where it is.

For example, there is a section that says that they will get a DVD with full rez and that they can reproduce and share with friends/family. Another is about when the payment is due and what form of payment I accept. It is written in clear language and is not "attorney speak".

And as I have mentioned before...I already have an attorney that I am going to utilize. I just want to finish the draft and get thoughts here if it is overkill. Seems like it is from everyone's perspective here. Its good feedback. Thanx!

Soppy · April 14, 2011

You enter into a contract simply by making an oral deal with the client (which is also enforceable in court provided there is some way to prove it was said). Oral contracts have been enforced in courts before, often when the people involved didn't know it was a contract. Bottom line is, if you are really concerned with it, put a terms of booking think at the bottom of your services page on your site, refer people there or tell them when they book the basics of your policies, and you should be fine. There is no need for an 8 page contract, and I would think that would greatly reduce clientele. Just lay out your terms with them, perhaps through email so there is a paper trail, and you're fine. Just say something like "By using my services you agree to these terms." That way they are covered quickly, you are protected, and you don't scare people.

Just my .02 coming from the business law course I am in (we just did contracts...).

Wachel · April 14, 2011

Glort wrote: »

Only by about 7 pages.

If you're that paranoid, I think you are in the wrong game.

No need to be rude. The poor guy came here just to ask a question.

Glort · April 14, 2011

Wachel wrote: »

No need to be rude. The poor guy came here just to ask a question.

I disagree I was rude.
Blunt, straight to the point ( for once), direct, non sugar coated... Probably.

The fact is ( as cautious as i was to admit it in Legal paranoia land) I haven't used a contract for weddings in 25 years.

I write on a blank piece of paper the inclusions the clients get, the price and any other details they want to know. I write the same thing in my diary when i interview them as i do all my coverages tailored to each client.

I explain to them how everything works and my terms and conditions and i have never had a problem in all that time which would amount to a contract dispute or anything that 100 pages of butt protection would have helped with.
Now I understand that reading that there are people already putting together responses amounting to all the gloom and doom i could get myself into that way and in changing times i would not disagree.
HOWEVER, the fact remains that so far i have had no problem and not having contracts as so many on this board seem to have a pre occupation with has never been an issue for me.

I am also of the opinion that having a lengthy contract would do more harm than good in destroying the mutual feeling of trust that I think is so important in these transactions and also encourage people to look for loopholes and get into legalse instead of just discussing the problem with me and sorting it much more amicably as I do now.

Sure I have had my customer disputes like anyone else in business but they have never been issues that would be in a contract and even if they were, the same thing would apply as has without a contract and the dispute has come back to the law of the land which you can't over ride in a contract anyway.
For these reasons, while I am always careful, I have not so far seen a reason to change what I am doing.
In oz at least, it is not possible to take someone to the cleaners where it is unwarranted. The most someone could be sued for is to deliver the product or issue a refund for monies paid.

I explain to my clients how things work, about payment and delivery terms and all the thing people need to know of have been a possible sticking point in the past. Perhaps the mentality of people is different here and they are not all out to shaft someone or think they have a right to sue because someone broke wind, but I has worked for me.

No doubt a 1-2 page contract would be acceptable but I have never heard of a shooter here with more than that and I can gaurantee the mentality of people here would be to run as fast as they could if you pulled out 8 pages of the most simply written terms and conditions. the thought would be what the hell are they getting into and what were you setting them up for?
People would be very suspect of so much formality over a relatively simple and straightforward transaction.

Shooters may want to complicate and protect themselves given other legal systems but it seems i am not alone here in thinking that 8 pages is far too much and reflects a degree of paranoia on the shooters part.

Sam · April 14, 2011

While on the surface it does seem an 8 page contact is too long I would be interested in reading the draft. (Feel free to e-mail it to me).

I have little idea as to what works in oz. My total knowledge of oz is that they seem to speak a strange dialect of English, and eat some God awful substance called Vegemite.

I bought some once, opened it and as the odor wafted into my nostrils I decided in an eye blink I didn't need to go any farther with this food experiment.

I put out in the backyard for the feral cats. They summarily rejected the stuff. The possums rolled over and played dead. the rats fled for there lives.

When the police knocked on my front door with a cadaver dog I realized it was time to put the lid back on the untouched contents of the Vegemite jar and take to the hazardous wast station.

Enough of my less than extensive knowledge of oz.

America is a litigious land. It's ain't good but that's way it is so if you want to be in business here a contact is a very good idea if not an absolute necessity.

A contact will also clarify all the details of the service and protect the client. As an example lets say you complete the wedding and deliver all of the deliverable's you remember. The client calls and asks where is my DVD?

If you have a written contact (one contract, not two different pieces of paper), instead of responding with what DVD? you can quickly look up all the details and respond with something like Your right! I forgot I will get right on it. Arguments and hard feeling averted.

It is also common here to get a deposit on booking and receive payment in full prior to the wedding. Clients want some assurance that your a real business and want written conformation of their payment as well as whet they will be receiving for their money.

Sam

Icebear · April 14, 2011

"Good fences make good neighbors."
Robert Frost

deb22 · April 15, 2011

I don't think 8 pages is at all too much in this day and age. I don't do wedding photog but I can tell you if I was getting married I would want every detail you offered spelled out very clearly for me and 8 pages of info would not bother me in the least. I would feel assured that I would be getting what I paid for and under no circumstance would I ever hire someone with no contract or just a handshake after putting out the cash. If you have clients complaining about the length then you may have a problem, otherwise it will not be the contract that is slowing you down. good luck!

wildviper · April 15, 2011

Glort wrote: »

I disagree I was rude.
Blunt, straight to the point ( for once), direct, non sugar coated... Probably.

In oz at least, it is not possible to take someone to the cleaners where it is unwarranted. The most someone could be sued for is to deliver the product or issue a refund for monies paid.

I do not mind the blunt...I asked a question and it was an open question. So no problems. Point is taken in the context it was meant.

On another note...the key thing that you say here is where the major difference comes in between the two countries..US and Australia. In the US, we can be sued for anything by anyone...doesn't mean they would win, but that's a reality we live with and understand.

On top of that, the damages that can be claimed can be huge. For example, if I totally sucked and made a major mistake by loosing all the pictures of the bride....I can be pretty much be shut down and prolly owe more money than I can fathom. Sure, we have insurance for this coverage, but this gives you an idea of the "risk". All the bride have to claim is something to the effect of..."my one wedding day...my dream day is gone!!! I will forever suffer and am now in depression!" Oh boy......the damages here can be astronomical!

So am I paranoid....well as I said before..yes.

While one can never fully protect oneself with contracts....if I can go from 0% protection to 60 ro 70%...I can sleep better.

Ultimately though..the true test is going to be my future clients.

Glort · April 15, 2011

wildviper wrote: »

So am I paranoid....well as I said before..yes.

While one can never fully protect oneself with contracts....if I can go from 0% protection to 60 ro 70%...I can sleep better.

Ultimately though..the true test is going to be my future clients.

There is a lot to be said for doing what allows one to sleep well at night as I have said before.

I think ultimately the question of the contract length may come down to what the other vendors are providing.
If your contract is longer than say the reception venues, then you may stand out. If they are providing say a 12 page contract, then your probably OK.

Is a 8 page wedding contract too much?

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