Canon 7D?

photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
edited May 24, 2011 in Cameras
I am thinking of upgrading from the Canon 50D to the 7D through Canon's Loyalty Program. I shoot a lot of sports and find that the Canon 50D AF is just bit slow. Is the AF on the 7D a little or a lot better than 50D to justify the upgrade?
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Comments

  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited April 19, 2011
    I think it is, yes.

    I like using Servo AI with the AF set to use three AF points simulateously - the three points are on the right, the left, the center, or upper or lower part of the frame. In decent light it will grab focus very quickly this way. The 50D was a significant improvement over the 20D and 30D, but the 7D is better still. Not a 1DMK4, but getting closer.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 19, 2011
    Can the AF on the Canon 50D be set to three points as well or is this for the 7D and 1D?
  • pthpth Registered Users Posts: 49 Big grins
    edited April 19, 2011
    It would also help to know the sports involved. In many cases better glass and technique will give you equal or better improvements when compared against body upgrades.
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 19, 2011
    I shoot soccer, basketball and air shows using a Canon 70-200mm L2.8 non-IS. I use the AI servo at High continous.
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 19, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    I shoot soccer, basketball and air shows using a Canon 70-200mm L2.8 non-IS. I use the AI servo at High continous.

    ... and...???...

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited April 20, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    I shoot soccer, basketball and air shows using a Canon 70-200mm L2.8 non-IS. I use the AI servo at High continous.

    I think that the 7D would be a noticeable improvement for the soccer and air-shows. Indoor sports are probably going to be similar AF performance to the 50D.

    A Canon 1D series body is still the recommendation for indoor sports. Even the aging 1D MKII/1D MKIIN have better AF performance than a 7D or xxD body.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,960 moderator
    edited April 20, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    Can the AF on the Canon 50D be set to three points as well or is this for the 7D and 1D?
    The 50D just lets you select one point.
  • ThatCanonGuyThatCanonGuy Registered Users Posts: 1,778 Major grins
    edited April 20, 2011
    From what I've heard the 7D AF is better a bit better than the 50D. Like Ziggy said, if you're concerned with AF speed you may want to look at a 1DII/IIn. Excellent AF--I am always amazed with the 70-200 AF on a 1DII. I love using that combo for sports.
  • insanefredinsanefred Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited April 20, 2011
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    I think that the 7D would be a noticeable improvement for the soccer and air-shows. Indoor sports are probably going to be similar AF performance to the 50D.

    A Canon 1D series body is still the recommendation for indoor sports. Even the aging 1D MKII/1D MKIIN have better AF performance than a 7D or xxD body.


    Why not a 1D3 or 4?
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited April 20, 2011
    insanefred wrote: »
    Why not a 1D3 or 4?

    If there's a budget to support the purchase, absolutely, they should be considered.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 20, 2011
    I have also been looking at the 1DII and 1DIII on KEH as well but looking to take advantage of Canon's Loyalty program and the 1D is not part of their program. I can get a 7D refurb for $1087.00 plus tax from Canon.
  • ThatCanonGuyThatCanonGuy Registered Users Posts: 1,778 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2011
    photodad1 wrote:
    I have also been looking at the 1DII and 1DIII on KEH as well but looking to take advantage of Canon's Loyalty program and the 1D is not part of their program. I can get a 7D refurb for $1087.00 plus tax from Canon.

    Sure, but a 1DIIn is about the same price, and a 1DII is even less. You've just gotta decide whether you want the new features and hi resolution of the 7D, or the better build quality and AF of the 1D. Oh, and dual card slots :)
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2011
    Canon 7D
    Sure, but a 1DIIn is about the same price, and a 1DII is even less. You've just gotta decide whether you want the new features and hi resolution of the 7D, or the better build quality and AF of the 1D. Oh, and dual card slots :)

    Now you got me thinking about the 1D. The Mark iii for about $2,200 or the Mark ii for about $1,000. Is it worth the extra $1,200 to go to Mark iii?
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited April 21, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    Now you got me thinking about the 1D. The Mark iii for about $2,200 or the Mark ii for about $1,000. Is it worth the extra $1,200 to go to Mark iii?

    There is a tremendous amount of fear associated with the 1D MKIII autofocus that I think is unjustified, but you should be aware of the issues. Under some situations, and with some copies of the body, people had difficulty finding focus. Generally it had to so with some defective parts and some versions of the firmware.

    If you can find a body outside the affected serial numbers* then you should be good to go. If you find a "blue dot" body, it should have had the necessary repairs but you may still have to load a current firmware in order to gain the most from the camera.

    I still have 2 copies of the 1D MKII and I truly love the AF characteristics for indoor applications. I use my 1D MKII cameras for sports, although not so much anymore, and for weddings and events, where the AF characteristics are just as important.

    The 1D MKII dates back to 2004 so if you consider that body it will be used and old. The primary parts prone to failure on those cameras are the mirror box and the shutter box assemblies. I would definitely repair mine if they go bad, as long as Canon supports the cameras themselves. At some point Canon will no longer support the cameras, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

    The 1D MKII is decent up to ISO 1600, but sports will allow less detail and less dynamic range so nighttime and indoor sports may require ISO 3200. The 1D MKIII is better at ISO 3200 and will tolerate more post-processing. If you get Neat Image there is an additional, privately made, software to allow very clean ISO 3200 images:

    http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=141192

    (I purchased FlexNR even though I don't own a 1D MKIII. The software also works on 1D MKII images although it is not as optimal as on the 1D MKIII. Hopefully it won't be too long until I get a 1D MKIII for myself.)

    I can recommend the 1D MKIII and if you should decide it's not for you, you can probably recoup all of your investment. They are already pretty well depreciated. It has enough advantage over the 1D MKII/1D MKIIN that, if you have the budget, it's a very good choice any way you cut it.

    What lenses are you planning on using? For a sports application the lenses are just as important a consideration.


    *Canon quote: "If the serial number on the bottom of the camera is between 501001 and 546561, it could be affected by the AF mirror adjustment problem ..."
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • ThatCanonGuyThatCanonGuy Registered Users Posts: 1,778 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2011
    I like how the Mark II AF is SO good and accurate, while still having like 2 (literally) Custom Functions dedicated to AF. I must say, I like the Mark II AF and don't see a need for the complication of the Mark III AF. Sure, it can be optimized, but does the II AF really need to be better? And just 2mp more... I guess 2 more fps are a bit of a difference. And the ISO. Honestly, I can't see myself getting a Mark III anytime soon. Even if I had the cash, I'd stick with the Mark II and maybe consider the Mark IV when the Mark VI/VII are out. That's just me. The things I don't like about my Mark II are: 1) small screen that's not that great... I played with a 7D once and the screen looked really, really amazing. The Mark II N screen is bigger, but I've never used one so I don't know how good it is. 2) The 8mp is a bit low, but 10 doesn't seem like much of an imporvement. 3) the high ISO isn't that great, as I hesitate to go to 1250. I've dealt with it so far, and this is IMHO the greatest advantage of a Mark III.
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2011
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    There is a tremendous amount of fear associated with the 1D MKIII autofocus that I think is unjustified, but you should be aware of the issues. Under some situations, and with some copies of the body, people had difficulty finding focus. Generally it had to so with some defective parts and some versions of the firmware.

    If you can find a body outside the affected serial numbers* then you should be good to go. If you find a "blue dot" body, it should have had the necessary repairs but you may still have to load a current firmware in order to gain the most from the camera.

    I still have 2 copies of the 1D MKII and I truly love the AF characteristics for indoor applications. I use my 1D MKII cameras for sports, although not so much anymore, and for weddings and events, where the AF characteristics are just as important.

    The 1D MKII dates back to 2004 so if you consider that body it will be used and old. The primary parts prone to failure on those cameras are the mirror box and the shutter box assemblies. I would definitely repair mine if they go bad, as long as Canon supports the cameras themselves. At some point Canon will no longer support the cameras, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

    The 1D MKII is decent up to ISO 1600, but sports will allow less detail and less dynamic range so nighttime and indoor sports may require ISO 3200. The 1D MKIII is better at ISO 3200 and will tolerate more post-processing. If you get Neat Image there is an additional, privately made, software to allow very clean ISO 3200 images:

    http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=141192

    (I purchased FlexNR even though I don't own a 1D MKIII. The software also works on 1D MKII images although it is not as optimal as on the 1D MKIII. Hopefully it won't be too long until I get a 1D MKIII for myself.)

    I can recommend the 1D MKIII and if you should decide it's not for you, you can probably recoup all of your investment. They are already pretty well depreciated. It has enough advantage over the 1D MKII/1D MKIIN that, if you have the budget, it's a very good choice any way you cut it.

    What lenses are you planning on using? For a sports application the lenses are just as important a consideration.


    *Canon quote: "If the serial number on the bottom of the camera is between 501001 and 546561, it could be affected by the AF mirror adjustment problem ..."

    How complicated is the Mark iii to use? I use a Canon 70-200mm L2.8 non-iS with a Canon 1.4 extender when shooting soccer.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,119 moderator
    edited April 21, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    How complicated is the Mark iii to use? I use a Canon 70-200mm L2.8 non-iS with a Canon 1.4 extender when shooting soccer.

    It is a handfull until you establish some shooting habits. After that, you can record your settings to a memory card and load the custom settings back whenever you wish. You can dedicate a few small memory cards to settings and then load the right settings for the task.

    Here are the settings Sports Illustrated recommends for their shooters using the 1D MKIIN, to get you started:

    http://www.siphoto.com/?canon1DM2N.inc
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2011
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    It is a handfull until you establish some shooting habits. After that, you can record your settings to a memory card and load the custom settings back whenever you wish. You can dedicate a few small memory cards to settings and then load the right settings for the task.

    Here are the settings Sports Illustrated recommends for their shooters using the 1D MKIIN, to get you started:

    http://www.siphoto.com/?canon1DM2N.inc

    Thank you very much!
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited April 22, 2011
    I went from a 40D to a 1DIIN to a 7D. I assume the 50D AF is the same as the 40D. The 7D is a lot closer to the 1DIIN in AF performance, definitely worth upgrading from a 50D. People wax nostalgic for the 1DII(N)'s AF to the point that you'd think it had a 100% hit rate. It did not.

    I would not trade my 7D for a 1DIIN now. The 7D's 18mp is great for cropping. Add the 1.6x crop factor and the 7D gets a lot more reach than the 1DIIN. It's way more useful for field sports like soccer where you can get away with using a 70-200 and cover a good portion of the field.

    7D, ISO 100, f/2.8, 1/1250:
    1046201794_ttYAx-X2-1.jpg

    One feature of the 7D that I LOVE that doesn't seem to get talked about much is the fact that you can set it to automatically change AF point when you hold it vertically or horizontally. This is huge for sports. With the 1DIIN if I was shooting vertically with the AF point at the top and saw a horizontal scene unfolding in front of me, I just couldn't get it.

    High ISO performance is also much better on the 7D. I felt that the 1DIIN's limit for high IQ was ISO 800, and that 1600 was just ok (about the same as my 40D was), and 3200 was unusable. This meant basketball without flash was just not possible, IMO.

    7D, ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/400:
    1174173098_ejBbd-X2.jpg

    It is also nice to have the vertical grip be optional. This makes taking the camera along on family outings a lot easier. The 1D did not fit into a sling bag very well and it was heavier.

    1233552704_uqYPc-X2.jpg

    And the built-in flash is great for impromptu fill:

    1250716557_366bm-XL.jpg

    Now, if I could afford a 1DIV, I'd get one because hey, that's the ultimate in AF and IQ. I could sell my 7D and get a 1DIII today, but I'm not going to. I don't think I want to go back to 10mp and fewer features. I also don't want to risk getting a lemon.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 22, 2011
    I went from a 40D to a 1DIIN to a 7D. I assume the 50D AF is the same as the 40D. The 7D is a lot closer to the 1DIIN in AF performance, definitely worth upgrading from a 50D. People wax nostalgic for the 1DII(N)'s AF to the point that you'd think it had a 100% hit rate. It did not.

    I would not trade my 7D for a 1DIIN now. The 7D's 18mp is great for cropping. Add the 1.6x crop factor and the 7D gets a lot more reach than the 1DIIN. It's way more useful for field sports like soccer where you can get away with using a 70-200 and cover a good portion of the field.

    7D, ISO 100, f/2.8, 1/1250:
    1046201794_ttYAx-X2-1.jpg

    One feature of the 7D that I LOVE that doesn't seem to get talked about much is the fact that you can set it to automatically change AF point when you hold it vertically or horizontally. This is huge for sports. With the 1DIIN if I was shooting vertically with the AF point at the top and saw a horizontal scene unfolding in front of me, I just couldn't get it.

    High ISO performance is also much better on the 7D. I felt that the 1DIIN's limit for high IQ was ISO 800, and that 1600 was just ok (about the same as my 40D was), and 3200 was unusable. This meant basketball without flash was just not possible, IMO.

    7D, ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/400:
    1174173098_ejBbd-X2.jpg

    It is also nice to have the vertical grip be optional. This makes taking the camera along on family outings a lot easier. The 1D did not fit into a sling bag very well and it was heavier.

    1233552704_uqYPc-X2.jpg

    And the built-in flash is great for impromptu fill:

    1250716557_366bm-XL.jpg

    Now, if I could afford a 1DIV, I'd get one because hey, that's the ultimate in AF and IQ. I could sell my 7D and get a 1DIII today, but I'm not going to. I don't think I want to go back to 10mp and fewer features. I also don't want to risk getting a lemon.

    Great photos and feedback! Thanks so much for sharing.
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 22, 2011
    I spoke with a guy at the camera store today and I was asking him questions about the Canon 7D and shooting sports. He states that I should switch to the Nikon D7000 instead of buying the Canon 7D because in his opinion has a better AF and takes better quality photos.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited April 22, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    I spoke with a guy at the camera store today and I was asking him questions about the Canon 7D and shooting sports. He states that I should switch to the Nikon D7000 instead of buying the Canon 7D because in his opinion has a better AF and takes better quality photos.

    The D7000 is a fine camera but hardly worth switching systems for. It's the successor to the D90. It sits somewhere between the 60D and 7D. The 7D competes with the D300s. I guess if you wanted one camera to do everything - sports, action, wildlife, studio, portraits, landscape, street, then yeah, you'd want to consider the D700 (right, d-seven-hundred). But I think the 7D is a better camera than the D7000. D7000 is 6fps and 7D is 8fps. That's a big difference, especially for sports. Here's a sequence I shot at 8fps:

    1250978681_awXMy-X2.jpg

    plus, some people switch from Nikon to Canon for the color and skin tones. Personally, whenever I pick up a Nikon I am utterly confounded by the UI.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • Brett1000Brett1000 Registered Users Posts: 819 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2011
    I went from a 40D to a 1DIIN to a 7D. I assume the 50D AF is the same as the 40D. The 7D is a lot closer to the 1DIIN in AF performance, definitely worth upgrading from a 50D. People wax nostalgic for the 1DII(N)'s AF to the point that you'd think it had a 100% hit rate. It did not.

    I would not trade my 7D for a 1DIIN now. The 7D's 18mp is great for cropping. Add the 1.6x crop factor and the 7D gets a lot more reach than the 1DIIN. It's way more useful for field sports like soccer where you can get away with using a 70-200 and cover a good portion of the field.

    7D, ISO 100, f/2.8, 1/1250:
    1046201794_ttYAx-X2-1.jpg

    One feature of the 7D that I LOVE that doesn't seem to get talked about much is the fact that you can set it to automatically change AF point when you hold it vertically or horizontally. This is huge for sports. With the 1DIIN if I was shooting vertically with the AF point at the top and saw a horizontal scene unfolding in front of me, I just couldn't get it.

    High ISO performance is also much better on the 7D. I felt that the 1DIIN's limit for high IQ was ISO 800, and that 1600 was just ok (about the same as my 40D was), and 3200 was unusable. This meant basketball without flash was just not possible, IMO.

    7D, ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/400:
    1174173098_ejBbd-X2.jpg

    It is also nice to have the vertical grip be optional. This makes taking the camera along on family outings a lot easier. The 1D did not fit into a sling bag very well and it was heavier.



    And the built-in flash is great for impromptu fill:



    Now, if I could afford a 1DIV, I'd get one because hey, that's the ultimate in AF and IQ. I could sell my 7D and get a 1DIII today, but I'm not going to. I don't think I want to go back to 10mp and fewer features. I also don't want to risk getting a lemon.


    nice pics !
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2011
    I just bought the Canon 7D and I'm preparing to photograph a soccer tournament this weekend. Does anyone have any recommendations for setting up the focus points?
  • Brett1000Brett1000 Registered Users Posts: 819 Major grins
    edited April 26, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    I just bought the Canon 7D and I'm preparing to photograph a soccer tournament this weekend. Does anyone have any recommendations for setting up the focus points?

    Look at these resources for configuring the 7D AF section and custom functions for sports/ action shots -
    http://www.deepgreenphotography.com/2009/12/setting-up-your-new-canon-7d/
    and the 7D and sports section -
    http://photography-on-the.net/forum
  • Ric GrupeRic Grupe Registered Users Posts: 9,522 Major grins
    edited April 26, 2011
    photodad1 wrote: »
    I just bought the Canon 7D and I'm preparing to photograph a soccer tournament this weekend. Does anyone have any recommendations for setting up the focus points?

    You'll want to look at these videos from Canon.
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 27, 2011
    I have reviewed the above information and video. So which of the five focus points would you recommend for photographing soccer? Spot AF, Single Point AF, AF Point Selection, Zone AF or 19 point AF?
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited April 27, 2011
    I use single point with expansion, and tracking speed on medium-slow. Tracking speed is how fast the camera will switch subjects if another subject crosses the frame. I'll use either the top point or 2nd to top point in either orientation, and aim for the player's head. If the uniform has a lot of contrasty detail, you can try center point. If not, set the camera to automatically switch points when you hold it vertically or horizontally. And get a grip. No really, get a grip. ;)
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • photodad1photodad1 Registered Users Posts: 566 Major grins
    edited April 27, 2011
    How do you set the tracking speed? I did get the Canon BG-E7 though.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited April 27, 2011
    It's in the custom functions.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
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