Complaint

PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
edited May 10, 2011 in SmugMug Pro Sales Support
Hello I received a complaint from a customer who ordered a photo from my website. The photo is :

http://www.chitownsam.com/Photography/Special/Creative/16427036_BfFRU#1236472098_GVwbT-A-LB

he ordered a:
8 x 10 Print (Lustre)
Color Correction: Yes
Lab: Bay Photo
From Photography - Creative


He wrote me and said "By the way, I received the photo yesterday that I ordered, came out pretty dull." Disappointed.


What can I do. As we all know bad feedback from customers are not good for business.
Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
Sam Fowler | Photography
http://www.chitownsam.com

Comments

  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Hi Sam, this photo should print quite lovely - coupla things, 1) the customer could have a very jacked-up bright monitor (they usually do)... and #2, why is your original so very very small? 1280px by 853px? We guarantee EVERYTHING at SmugMug, so just write our Support Heroes and we'll help you from the help desk on this - no worries at all!
    Andy

    Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
  • PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Andy wrote: »
    Hi Sam, this photo should print quite lovely - coupla things, 1) the customer could have a very jacked-up bright monitor (they usually do)... and #2, why is your original so very very small? 1280px by 853px? We guarantee EVERYTHING at SmugMug, so just write our Support Heroes and we'll help you from the help desk on this - no worries at all!

    Thanks Andy - I will contact the Support Heroes. BTW - when I am in aperture or lightroom and I want to upload to my site - in aperture it says jpeg full size or I have other options to upload as. When I bring the file in - its in RAW format. What should I be uploading the file in - tiff, jpg, png.......etc?
    Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
    Sam Fowler | Photography
    http://www.chitownsam.com
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Peace wrote: »
    Thanks Andy - I will contact the Support Heroes. BTW - when I am in aperture or lightroom and I want to upload to my site - in aperture it says jpeg full size or I have other options to upload as. When I bring the file in - its in RAW format. What should I be uploading the file in - tiff, jpg, png.......etc?

    JPG, sRGB, and ALL the original pixels - don't resize. Your best prints will come from the original pixels.
    Andy

    Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
  • PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Andy wrote: »
    JPG, sRGB, and ALL the original pixels - don't resize. Your best prints will come from the original pixels.

    So I am supposed to upload the file as ie:

    img001.crw a CRW file???

    Really????
    Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
    Sam Fowler | Photography
    http://www.chitownsam.com
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Peace wrote: »
    So I am supposed to upload the file as ie:

    img001.crw a CRW file???

    Really????

    JPG. Only JPG. Do not resize or downsize or change the resolution. Upload your full size file.
    Andy

    Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
  • brjphotobrjphoto Registered Users Posts: 168 Major grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    This conversation just blew my mind. I'm stupified.
  • PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Andy wrote: »
    JPG. Only JPG. Do not resize or downsize or change the resolution. Upload your full size file.

    WOW - I have learned so much in the last few minutes. The file I have up on my site would look great on a 3x5 picture. He bought an 8x10 and the size 1280x853 px which is what I have on my site is the problem. I need it to be 5184x3456 and then the picture would look good when he has it printed to an 8x10. Duh.

    I went into photoshop and said open new and chose 8x10 inches. Then I went to image size after its opened and the pixels are 1920x2400. Well if thats an 8x10 then my original picture on my site that is a 1280x853 would never look right on an 8x10.

    This is very new to me. So I guess this is a learning experience for me. What I have noticed and I question this is - my original image is 107.5 MB but after I export this to a JPG full original to my desktop or to the server - the size drops down to 6.5MB - HOLY SMOKES talk about compression!!!! So if the file is up on the server at 5184x3456 and has a size of only 6.5 MB is that a problem? Is the compression causing the dullness of the image during printing? Would it cause dullness due to the compression? Or is all of this because my original file that I uploaded was only 1280x853 and he was printing it to an 8x10 which would stretch it out and cause the picture to be dull?

    BTW Thanks for your input on this....
    Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
    Sam Fowler | Photography
    http://www.chitownsam.com
  • gluwatergluwater Registered Users Posts: 3,599 Major grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Hi Sam, The more pixels you upload, the better the quality will be. That's why we ask you to upload the full resolution files. For an 8x10 the minimum resolution we will print is 750x935 which is smaller than you had but it is the minimum, you will get better quality with more pixels. You can see all the minimum resolution specs for prints purchased through SmugMug here: http://www.smugmug.com/help/print-quality.

    Please do not resize your files to 8x10, you can crop in the cart, give us all the pixels that you have.

    RAW files are uncompressed. That means they have every bit of data as it was captured. When you output as a jpg it uses compression to reduce the file size. That does not mean it is reducing the quality of the file. A first generation jpg, meaning it was output directly from a RAW file or other lossless format, will still be very high quality and you will not be able to tell the difference in quality. You will be able to notice a difference in upload speed though since it is only a small fraction of the size of the original file. Converting to a jpg will not change the color in your print or cause it to print dull.

    I looked at the image and most of the data in it is in the midtones and shadows. There is little data in the highlights. That makes it a low contrast image and will make it appear dull. It was an overcast day so it is really about what I would expect from the image. It is hard to know what the customer was expecting. As Andy mentioned, they could have a very bright monitor so they could have been expecting closer to what they were seeing on their monitor.
    Nick
    SmugMug Technical Account Manager
    Travel = good. Woo, shooting!
    nickwphoto
  • PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    gluwater wrote: »
    Hi Sam, The more pixels you upload, the better the quality will be. That's why we ask you to upload the full resolution files. For an 8x10 the minimum resolution we will print is 750x935 which is smaller than you had but it is the minimum, you will get better quality with more pixels. You can see all the minimum resolution specs for prints purchased through SmugMug here: http://www.smugmug.com/help/print-quality.

    Please do not resize your files to 8x10, you can crop in the cart, give us all the pixels that you have.

    RAW files are uncompressed. That means they have every bit of data as it was captured. When you output as a jpg it uses compression to reduce the file size. That does not mean it is reducing the quality of the file. A first generation jpg, meaning it was output directly from a RAW file or other lossless format, will still be very high quality and you will not be able to tell the difference in quality. You will be able to notice a difference in upload speed though since it is only a small fraction of the size of the original file. Converting to a jpg will not change the color in your print or cause it to print dull.

    I looked at the image and most of the data in it is in the midtones and shadows. There is little data in the highlights. That makes it a low contrast image and will make it appear dull. It was an overcast day so it is really about what I would expect from the image. It is hard to know what the customer was expecting. As Andy mentioned, they could have a very bright monitor so they could have been expecting closer to what they were seeing on their monitor.

    Thank you Nick!! This makes it more clear. I am glad you posted the minimum requirements of the pics. Thats important to know. I guess in the beginning I started putting my photos up after resizing them - and I shouldn't do that. The latest photos I have are in its full pixels. I Have only been up here on Smugmug for not even a month or just a bit over a month. I am learning a lot here and its all a new hobby to be honest. I just purchased a couple of my 8x10 to see what they actually look like on print - I have never done that before. This will be interesting to see my work actually on print. I have everything coming from Bay Photo on my site. What is your feelings on Bay Photo vs Ez Prints? A friend a work told me Bay Photo is really good and to use them. I looked them up and they were connected to Smugmug - that was one of my many decision making reasons to go with Smugmug that Zenfolio.

    What are your feelings on Bay Photo vs Ez Prints. I know Ez Prints are a bit cheaper but not sure about quality.

    Thank in advance for your response Nick!!
    Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
    Sam Fowler | Photography
    http://www.chitownsam.com
  • PupatorPupator Registered Users Posts: 2,322 Major grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Your original image is 107MB? How in the world did it get that big?
  • PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
    edited May 4, 2011
    Pupator wrote: »
    Your original image is 107MB? How in the world did it get that big?

    Good question - hell if I know. Here is one that I took and brought it into Aperture and its 102.5 MB. maybe Aperture is lying to me...Laughing.gif

    Look at attachment.
    Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
    Sam Fowler | Photography
    http://www.chitownsam.com
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited May 5, 2011
    It is not unusal for a raw file and or jpg to be stating it is 100+MB when using the image size in photoshop to tell you the size...but that is pixel dimensions...it is not the acutl size of the file.......this really startled me when I went from the Konica Minolta 7D to the Nikon D300 and saw this whopping image file size but then how could it upload to Smumug when they limit the size of the uploads to one hell of a lot less......here is link and the first graphic shows what I am talking about very clearly....

    I just opened a file in PSCS4 that is approx 20x40" at 300dpi....pixels dimensions are approx 210MB and the jpg file size is approx 22MB....
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited May 5, 2011
    I justr did a right clik to read your EXIF and it was not there ...but the EXIF reader said that your jpg compression was 75%.....you should in my opinion and the opinion of the PRO Labs I use, the jpg compression should be set for the least amount of compression (photoshop #12 and lightroom 100) that way there is less degradation to the file so much better printing.....also when you save your files do it as as SAVE AS (photoshop) {do not know Aperture language}...do not use save for the web or anything of that type it erases all your EXIF info which should contain a copyright statement in it............mne is inserted in my Nikon D300 and another one (more extensive) is added in Lightroom........
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • PeacePeace Registered Users Posts: 69 Big grins
    edited May 5, 2011
    Art Scott wrote: »
    I justr did a right clik to read your EXIF and it was not there ...but the EXIF reader said that your jpg compression was 75%.....you should in my opinion and the opinion of the PRO Labs I use, the jpg compression should be set for the least amount of compression (photoshop #12 and lightroom 100) that way there is less degradation to the file so much better printing.....also when you save your files do it as as SAVE AS (photoshop) {do not know Aperture language}...do not use save for the web or anything of that type it erases all your EXIF info which should contain a copyright statement in it............mne is inserted in my Nikon D300 and another one (more extensive) is added in Lightroom........

    Thanks Art. The image you see above is just a screenshot not the actual image thats in my program or computer - it was just a reference just to show dimensions that I am seeing on the screen within my editing program. The bottom of the picture above you will see it say the actual size of the picture in the lower left hand corner of the picture. I knew the pictures were pretty substantial in size and thought they probably would not like me if I was uploading 100MB files to the server - I guess thats why I was downsizing it in the beginning as I didn't want to overload the server and didn't know any better. I know JPG has compression involved, but just wasn't sure if the picture should be saved as a different type on the site to get the best printing quality in the end. Apparently JPG in its full form with no resizing is acceptable as Andy has mentioned, even with all its compression going on. I have to say its pretty darn shocking the compression that JPG has on RAW files. I mean from 100MB down to 6MB - WOW!!

    Thanks for the comments and suggestions Art - I will check my compression settings and make sure that its set correctly in PS, LR and Aperture. My Canon has the same copyright statements built into my camera that your mentioning, I have it set as well for EXIF.
    Sam
    Equipment Canon 60D | Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1,4/50 | 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM| 100mm f/2.8 EF USM Macro |70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro| 430EX II
    Sam Fowler | Photography
    http://www.chitownsam.com
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited May 5, 2011
    Art Scott wrote: »
    I justr did a right clik to read your EXIF and it was not there ...but the EXIF reader said that your jpg compression was 75%.....you should in my opinion and the opinion of the PRO Labs I use, the jpg compression should be set for the least amount of compression (photoshop #12 and lightroom 100) that way there is less degradation to the file so much better printing.....also when you save your files do it as as SAVE AS (photoshop) {do not know Aperture language}...do not use save for the web or anything of that type it erases all your EXIF info which should contain a copyright statement in it............mne is inserted in my Nikon D300 and another one (more extensive) is added in Lightroom........
    Lighroom 100% or Photoshop 12 are a pure waste of disk space and upload time for viewing on the web or printing at any size. Lightroom 85% and Photoshop 10 are visually indistinguishable from the original and they save a huge amount of disk space and upload time. There's no reason to overkill this and take 2-3x as long to upload and 2-3x as much space to store.
    --John
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  • cabbeycabbey Registered Users Posts: 1,053 Major grins
    edited May 5, 2011
    jfriend wrote: »
    Lighroom 100% or Photoshop 12 are a pure waste of disk space and upload time for viewing on the web or printing at any size. Lightroom 85% and Photoshop 10 are visually indistinguishable from the original and they save a huge amount of disk space and upload time. There's no reason to overkill this and take 2-3x as long to upload and 2-3x as much space to store.

    Agree 100%. Jeffrey Friedl did a great writeup about the jpeg compression levels: http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/jpeg-quality
    SmugMug Sorcerer - Engineering Team Champion for Commerce, Finance, Security, and Data Support
    http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
  • SunstruckSunstruck Registered Users Posts: 41 Big grins
    edited May 10, 2011
    Peace wrote: »
    Thank you Nick!! This makes it more clear. I am glad you posted the minimum requirements of the pics. Thats important to know. I guess in the beginning I started putting my photos up after resizing them - and I shouldn't do that. The latest photos I have are in its full pixels. I Have only been up here on Smugmug for not even a month or just a bit over a month. I am learning a lot here and its all a new hobby to be honest. I just purchased a couple of my 8x10 to see what they actually look like on print - I have never done that before. This will be interesting to see my work actually on print. I have everything coming from Bay Photo on my site. What is your feelings on Bay Photo vs Ez Prints? A friend a work told me Bay Photo is really good and to use them. I looked them up and they were connected to Smugmug - that was one of my many decision making reasons to go with Smugmug that Zenfolio.

    What are your feelings on Bay Photo vs Ez Prints. I know Ez Prints are a bit cheaper but not sure about quality.

    Thank in advance for your response Nick!!

    Hi Nick,
    I resize all my photos that I upload to Smuggy. I normally resize to 2-3MB, that will allow the customers to purchase 8 x 10 files, but it cuts way down on the upload time. When a customer buys a print, as long as you have a "Proof Delay" set, you have the option of replacing the low res file to a hi res file before sending to the lab.

    I do dog event photography, and it is not uncommon for me to upload 2,000 to 3,000 photos per event. That would take forever if I uploaded the full size shots.


    BTW, Bay Lab is awesome!

    Penny
    http://www.pennyjwillsphotography.com/
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