Which printer for an amateur with a D700?

George07748

Hi.
I think I need to get a new printer as my "next step" in this hobby. I've been doing photography for several years and have recently upgraded to the D700. In the past week, I entered some of my work in an art show, and while I'm pleased to get in, once it was up on the walls against some others, I could easily see how my work lacked compared to others.

I was especially concerned by the prints themselves... they seemed dull by comparison and while I did rush this together using the local Costco lab and therefore might have done better by taking time to select a better lab, I'm also wondering if there are high quality photo printers for use at home that can produce vibrant "gallery style" prints.

I say home use because I'm not a pro and don't really ever intend to be. I may print small "packages" for a few family pictures I take at my church, etc. but I would say my printing load would be a couple of prints per week. This might be followed by a week or two with no prints and perhaps the occasional week where I print a lot of stuff (posters for our youth group, etc.).

Is there a printer out there that would do well with this? I'm guess I'm looking for a very high quality printer that's capable of low volume. I recently started reading about pigment inks and these sound (and look) intriequing.

I have an HP Photosmart C7520 that I use for my office type printing. It has a tray for 4x6 prints which I use for quick prints for grandma, etc. Thses come out "OK" but don't really have a wow factor.

Thanks for your help!

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Pupator

My Costco lab is very good. Are you using a color calibrated monitor? Did you soft-proof at all?

I would advise against getting into the print it yourself model. You'll waste a ton of money on the printer and inks- especially since you're l looking to do low volume. You'd have to print hundreds, if not thousands at a pro print lab before you broke even. I use Bay Photo if I can wait a few days for the prints and Costco if I can't.

George07748

Pupator wrote: »

My Costco lab is very good. Are you using a color calibrated monitor? Did you soft-proof at all?

I would advise against getting into the print it yourself model. You'll waste a ton of money on the printer and inks- especially since you're l looking to do low volume. You'd have to print hundreds, if not thousands at a pro print lab before you broke even. I use Bay Photo if I can wait a few days for the prints and Costco if I can't.

Thanks! I'm looking into calibration right now. I have no idea what you mean by "soft proof".

The wierd thing is that prior to getting involved in all this lightroom stuff, etc, I would just send the pics from a Nikon point and shoot or even my old D40 to my local printer and things turned out fine.

michswiss

With a colour managed workflow, a calibrated monitor and a profile for your targeted printer/paper combination you can "soft proof" the image on your screen before actually printing it. Soft proofing basically gives you a solid idea how the actual printed result should look. That said, I agree with Pupator in so much that it's not worth getting into your own higher-end printing unless you plan on making extensive use of it. Not worth the hassle. Find a good local lab and spend some time talking with them.

BradfordBenn

My hunch is that in the step ups in proficiency your work flow went from shooting JPG to shooting RAW. That one change is a double edged improvement and hindrance. Some of the things that have been happening in the background with JPG are now excluded so that you can put your own artistic impact on the processing. For instance one can use tools to change the sharpness in some areas and mute certain colors if so desired, so one can make adjustments almost at will. The advantage is that since you shot RAW you can make these modifications, the downside is that since you shot RAW often times the settings of pleasing tones that the camera would do automatically when shooting JPG are not done now.

It can be a steep learning curve, but there are many resources to look at for assistance, including DGrin. I have relied on SmugMug for lots of my improvements. I go back and reread the page http://www.smugmug.com/help/display-color quite a bit.

I also have gone to a hybrid approach, I do a soft proof after calibrating using the Huey Pro system and the proper printer profile. I also do a 4x6 inch print on my cheap home printer to see if the colors brightness looks right. I know it will not be accurate, but I do know that if I can get the brightness close on the home printer, the lab prints will be pleasing. Like you I am not a professional and do not think I will ever print enough to make the home printer worthwhile, however being able to do a basic test and then send it off to the lab seems to work for me. Also if I want to just print out a snapshot I can do it easily.

I will also say, that for learning the process SmugMug has been a great way to learn, I can ask lots of questions. The one time I did mess up the prints, the worked with me to get the right prints and stood behind them with their guarantee.

Art Scott

one of the nicest things about home print is, just like in the film days and home darkroom, is that you can be very picky about your paper.....
not every image will look good on the same paper, certain images will scream for glossy paper, while another will want a fibre art paper.....
most commercial pro labs might give a choice or two but none give you the whole gamut of fine art paper available and doing it yourself gives
you a certain feeling of true accomplishment and you can say you did it all from start to finish...plus it won't ever get lost in shipping............

michswiss

I'd go the opposite way, Art. The labs I work with have a much larger selection of papers than I would or could hope to maintain without excessive expense. But I tend to go to specialist firms. I do agree that it's incredibly satisfying to see the process through from end-to-end though. It's not really a picture until it's on paper somewhere.

chrisjohnson

Selphy CP800
Thanks for the tip on the Photosmart. I need to replace a printer and was wondering about this one.

For the postcard type prints we recently bought a Canon Selphy CP800. This is a lot of fun and the prints "pop". It uses a "dye sublimation" technology and coats the prints so they supposedly last 100 years. You have to buy a pack of ink cassette and 36 cards from Canon so you get a fixed price of 30 eurocents per postcard. The printer itself was really cheap.

I hope someone can give good advice for a bigger printer. My feeling is costs have come down a lot and there is nothing like seeing your photos on paper immediately.

George07748

I've had some time to read through the stickies (you always do that after you post a question, right?), and I'm learning that monitor calibration may be a key part of this. While I'm researching what to buy for that (it seems like people have problems with all the major units out there) I found one suggestion that says "adjust your monitor to match your prints".

So I took a couple of photos, made sure the white balance was good on them and printed them on my Photosmart C7250. Then holding them next to the screen, I adjusted the monitor hardware settings to get the display in lightroom to "match" the print (it really doesn't, but it's closer).

I ended up with settings (I have a HP w2338h, 24") of...

Brightness = 50 (it needed to go lower, but then glare becomes an issue)
Contrast = 25
Custom color:
Red = 200 (out of 255)
Green = 150
Blue = 50

So my question is does this seem normal? My screen almost looks like it was shot in tungsten light on daylight film.

One other note, my den is lit using 2 CFL bulbs which are in fixtures with stained glass shades. Could this be an issue?

Thanks again for the help!

Sam

George,

If all you ever used was your computer and your printer matching the computer to the printer would work.

However once you try to move away from this closed system your in trouble.

The idea of a calibrated monitor is to establish a standard. While nothing is perfect and depending on the monitor, if you and I are using calibrated monitors we will see the same thing on our monitors.

You want the monitor to be the standard and to adjust the image as needed for the output device.

Sam

George07748

Sam wrote: »

George,

If all you ever used was your computer and your printer matching the computer to the printer would work.

However once you try to move away from this closed system your in trouble.

The idea of a calibrated monitor is to establish a standard. While nothing is perfect and depending on the monitor, if you and I are using calibrated monitors we will see the same thing on our monitors.

You want the monitor to be the standard and to adjust the image as needed for the output device.

Sam

Thanks! I knew that thinking was too simple... just didn't get why.

George07748

George07748 wrote: »

Thanks! I knew that thinking was too simple... just didn't get why.

OK, so after looking around, it looks like one good option is the Spyder system for calibrating my monitor. Can I get by OK with the Spyder3 Pro, or do I need the Elite?

As far as printing, for now I decided to do a paper upgrade on the HP Photosmart C7250 I already have. I went with HP brand High Gloss Premium plus... I figure at $20 a pack of 25 and associated ink costs, I'll learn on that before looking at something larger. If I go the new printer route, I think I'll wait for the R2000 to come out since that's wireless and I have more room behind me than next to me in the den.

Thanks again!

Sam

George,

You can give it a try, but i am not sure you can get icc profiles for the all in one printers. All in one printers generally are not the best printers.

Also you never mentioned a budget. I will guarantee it's going to take more than $20.00 in paper plus ink to learn printing. Getting that wow factor involves more that just the printer.

You mentioned posters but didn't define a size.

In my opinion unless your doing high volume printing buying a high quality printer and doing it yourself will cost more than having a lab do the work. The big advantage of having your own (high quality) printer is with quality, infinite paper choices, control, and having the ability to have the print done anytime you want it.

To digress, did you mention what monitor you have? That is also very important.

But go ahead with the first step of calibrating your monitor. Then learn about icc profiles and soft proofing. Work with your printer and work with Costco, or a pro lab.

This will give you more hands on experience to help you with the decision to jump into the world of printing or stay with an outside fulfillment option.

Sam

George07748

Thanks Sam.

The paper upgrade was recognizing that the load of 4x6 paper I had in my printer was particularly awful. I got it as part of a package deal of Software, a card reader and a pack of paper. (Since the card reader was crap, I'm guessing the paper isn't too good either.)

My budget is ill defined and open ended... it's my hobby... if I need a lot of $$$ it will take longer to do and be spread out over a period of time. That being said, I don't want to waste money or resources.

Poster size is really whatever I can do. I'm a volunteer youth leader w/my church. 13x19 (which most of these printers can do will be fine).

My monitor is an HP w2338h, 24" LCD. I ordered the Spyder3 Pro. Once I figure out how to do that, I'll work with the photosmart, but also with Costco, letting them manage the color initially.

I'm a bit interested in the R2000 thats is listed on best buy as coming out soon (I wonder what that really means). It seems to be the follow on to the 1900 but is wireless so that may work better for me.

Thanks for all your help!

George07748

OK, so I received the Spyder3 Pro yesterday and hooked it up. It seemed to go through the calibration nicely (actually went through twice, once with the software on the CD and another time with the download).

My monitor now seems like there's been a slightly higher color shift (more blue and slighly lighter) from where it was before. (I choose the 2.2, 6500K default selection.) I ended up setting the brightness at 25%.

This of course has not changed the output from my Photosmart C7250. Prints still seem much more yellow and darker than the monitor display.

I purchased the Epson book on color print making from amazon and am starting to read that... tonight I'll try some new paper (HP instead of a 3rd party brand). And maybe I'll send a few more test prints to costco for comparison now that the monitor is calibrated.

Any thoughts or advice?

Sam

George07748 wrote: »

OK, so I received the Spyder3 Pro yesterday and hooked it up. It seemed to go through the calibration nicely (actually went through twice, once with the software on the CD and another time with the download).

My monitor now seems like there's been a slightly higher color shift (more blue and slighly lighter) from where it was before. (I choose the 2.2, 6500K default selection.) I ended up setting the brightness at 25%.

This of course has not changed the output from my Photosmart C7250. Prints still seem much more yellow and darker than the monitor display.

I purchased the Epson book on color print making from amazon and am starting to read that... tonight I'll try some new paper (HP instead of a 3rd party brand). And maybe I'll send a few more test prints to Costco for comparison now that the monitor is calibrated.

Any thoughts or advice?

What software are you using? Before sending any prints to Costco download the Costco icc profile. I think Dry Creek has them. Then soft proof before sending.

Yes try printing with the new paper as is. Then keep a record of the software and printer settings and of any and all changes you make.

Try managing the color with the software, and also try to let the printer manage the the color.

I generally let the printer manage colors when using my i9900. (I don't use it very often, and not for critical work.) But with my ipf5000 I always manage the color with CS5.

Sam

George07748

I'm using lightroom. I also have Photoshop Elements, but am thinking of upgrading to CS5.

I've only begun exploring the printing function. To date, most of my "work" has been exhibited on church websites, SmugMug, and Facebook, with small 4x6 prints from the Photosmart C7520 (or was it 7250) which were viewed by Mom who doesn't have a computer (but does have cataracts). She hasn't had any complaints...

Art Scott

Take a look at the EPSON website for the Refurbs....these will be as good as a new one for a lot less money and the saame warranty as a brand new one plus the abilty to buy an extended warranty before the regular warranty runs out........

George07748

Art Scott wrote: »

Take a look at the EPSON website for the Refurbs....these will be as good as a new one for a lot less money and the saame warranty as a brand new one plus the abilty to buy an extended warranty before the regular warranty runs out........

Thanks Art... I'll give it a look. I finally tried official HP Ultra Premium paper for the photosmart and it made a big difference. The paper I was using I got as a package from ebay with Lightroom, a card reader and a pack of paper. The card reader and now the paper both proved to be crap... I'm glad lightroom is working still.

From all the discussion above, I realize I need to work on developing my eye. I could sense the dullness of my prints relative to the others in the gallery, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on why. The epson book has helped in that regard.

Finally, do you think the photosmart will be acceptable to me, or should I just go ahead and move to epson? I still need to do "regular" printing such as word documents, spreadsheets, etc. Can I assume you can still do that with the epson photoprinters or do I need to have two printers?

Thanks!

Art Scott

I run 2 printers.....because I do a ton of just word processing printing and that is on a 10-15yr old HP Deskjet 932C....the rest is done on an Epson Stylus Photo1400 .....even though the Epson is discontinued the local Office Depot and Max were selling it for almost $700 and I got a refurb for $149 (and free shipping)/w a total of 4yrs of warranty for approx another $100.....Epson had been known for many years as using the smallest amount of ink of all printers, ....I am sure the other companies have in turn shrunk the size of their droplets also, another deciding factor was the amount of local artist using the photo 1400 and loving it.....I went to lots of Final Friday shows over the last few years and always asked the artists what they were printing on and Epson was by far the winner....may were using larger format printers than the photo 1400 but they had used the 1400 previously but wanted the ability for using large roll paper, so moved up to the ones that would take 24 to 40 inch wide paper......

Sam

George07748 wrote: »

Thanks Art... I'll give it a look. I finally tried official HP Ultra Premium paper for the photosmart and it made a big difference. The paper I was using I got as a package from ebay with Lightroom, a card reader and a pack of paper. The card reader and now the paper both proved to be crap... I'm glad lightroom is working still.

From all the discussion above, I realize I need to work on developing my eye. I could sense the dullness of my prints relative to the others in the gallery, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on why. The epson book has helped in that regard.

Finally, do you think the photosmart will be acceptable to me, or should I just go ahead and move to epson? I still need to do "regular" printing such as word documents, spreadsheets, etc. Can I assume you can still do that with the epson photoprinters or do I need to have two printers?

Thanks!

I have Three printers. One (Canon i850) for general printing and internet stuff. A second (Canon i9900) I rarely use anymore and could be for sale. My real photo printer a Canon ipf 5000.

Basically I think a photographer needs at least two, one for the general mundane printing and one dedicated for photos.

I haven't explored the printing function of LR because it doesn't have the ability to soft proof. I print from Photoshop.

One way to get some pop into your images is to add an s curve prior to printing. This is assuming the image is processed well to begin with.

As for photosmart or Epson, it's not the brand, it's the about printer's capabilities and specifications, and your ability to get the most out of it. An all in one is not in my opinion an acceptable printer for photographs.

Sam

Art Scott

Sam wrote: »

An all in one is not in my opinion an acceptable printer for photographs.

Sam

I agree here, very strongly.......any all in one item is not a good choice and my main reason for this thinking is...if one part of it goes bad..the whole thing is gone off to repair or the trash.....all in 1's are trashable items due to their mostly cheap costs and are not built to last....this goes back to my early childhood of buying stereos..all in one or components....I buy components for everything I use (only exception is my Konica Minolta A2...an all in 1 camera, so to speak......), especially with printers...one needs the ability to add printer profiles and paper profiles and such to get the best out of what one is trying to print.......

George07748

Thanks again.

OK, so a separate photo printer. No All in one, so that leaves out the epson 725 Best Buy was trying to sell me.

Any thoughts on wired or wireless? I have a fair bit of linear space behind me (2 lateral 2-drawer files), but doors between my computer desk and these files in both directions. So wireless would work better from a workspace point of view. Does it affect speed/performance?

Thanks!

Zerodog

I love printing at home. It was a bit of a learning curve dealing with colors and profiles. And I ended up getting a color munki. The munki was a good thing to get anyway. Brings you back to reality for your exposures and how bright images should be to print well. I bought an Epson 2880 that prints up to 13x19. I love it. I got it for a really great price with a double rebate that was from epson and my camera store. I think it was $400? This was a killer deal when I got it because it was also brand new to the market. My only regret with it is that it doesn't print bigger and it doesn't have both blacks at the same time. But to get those items, you are into a much more expensive system with much more expensive larger inks. The inks for the 2880 are $12. The inks for the 3880 are $60 Much worse on the pocketbook when you are out of a color. But on the flipside, if you print a lot way cheaper because they are much larger. The other problem with printing at home is the paper. I have tried many flavors. But have learned a lot about how a print looks on different medias. So I have piles of paper for different projects. Then you need to cut the stuff too. I started with a fiskars trimmer from a craft store. Works OK for small stuff. But if you need to do big stuff or heavier paper, forget it. Or if you want to make things the same size it is horrible. So that led to getting a Rotatrim. Really expensive for a cutter, but the first time I sliced a hair sized sliver off a huge sheet effortlessly I knew I made the right choice!

So as you can see, printing can be a huge can of worms. But in the end it is my own digital darkroom. I occasionally do prints for customers, but I mostly use it for gifts and my own artwork at home. I also print really nice double sided coupons and cards for events that are my own Moo style mini cards. This saves me a ton of cash. Moo cards for 1 event are $$

George07748

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice.

I unpacked my new Epson R2000 yesterday and set it up. Amazingly easy and great results (from a new guy's point of view). I thought the prints I was gettting from the HP Photosmart C7200 series were good once I switched back to real HP paper, but this thing printing on Epson glossy paper just blew it away (especially on the skin tones).

No fancy printer calibration... monitor was calibrated and then let Epson handle the printing.

Thanks again!