almost 16,000 views in 2 1/2 days but no sales

Orpeanut · May 17, 2011

I took photos of a High School softball game on Saturday and had them posted by late that evening. I've had almost 16,000 views since then and no sales. Some of the views are from posting a link on a local high school website but that generally generates about 1500 to 2000 views for softball.

Are my prices too high? Too many photos? I got a little carried away with how many I uploaded. Just not that good? I didn't have a very good day taking photos of field action. Short of setting up a printer at the field what do I need to do to generate more sales? I hand out business cards to point them to my site. I'm getting a lot of traffic.

Here is a link thanks

http://throughthelenssports.smugmug.com/2011GirlsHighSchoolSoftball/Western-Mennonite-vs-Blanchet/17055746_Fv8SVj#1291486498_JPfPchx

Andy · May 17, 2011

Why are you allowing originals to be viewed? How come no SmugMug or Custom Watermark?

Orpeanut · May 17, 2011

I see a few of my pictures on facebook but it's always kids taking pictures of the screen with their phone. It looks pretty bad. I really don't see it happen that often. I don't like what a watermark looks and it usually doesn't stop kids from taking them anyway.

What do you see as the drawbacks for originals?

Kikoprice · May 17, 2011

I watermark everything, dont allow the original file size to be viewed, turn off easy share and external links, right click protected turned on. This will stop "most" of the people from getting an eye patch and being a pirate.

My sales for daytime sports is down. Its easy to shoot, access is usually not an issue, and it seems like everyone has a DSLR. My shots and gear are better, but my shots have to be worth more to them then the $800-$1000 they just invested in a new camera. It can be tough, but it can be done.

Now Football at night on a HS field or Basketball in a cave they call a HS gym, can be good.

I dont think your prices are too high. Sometimes it is what it is....

denisegoldberg · May 17, 2011

Orpeanut wrote: »

What do you see as the drawbacks for originals?

If the originals are available there isn't any reason to purchase the photos - you are making them available for free.

Your right click protection? That's a poorly named feature, it doesn't protect anything. See ORIGINALS = a gateway to free photos, & right click protection is NOT PROTECTION.

--- Denise

Orpeanut · May 17, 2011

Thanks for the link Denise,

Too bad Smugmug can't fix the problem

Foques · May 17, 2011

it's not really a problem with smugmug, that's how browsers work.

Molotov Everything · May 17, 2011

I don't know if it necessarily effects sales but I do think there's too many photos there. 250 could have been cut down to 150 I think.
Also, compare these 2 shots:

There's such an obvious difference between the colors in the two, the first one is clear and vibrant and the second looks washed out. And going by the file names, the first one wasn't edited and the second one was. A lot of them have that grey hazy look to them and it seems to be the edited ones.
Someone else want to chime in on this? I don't think it's my monitor but who knows.

Jeffro · May 17, 2011

Too easy to steal, see:

Why would I buy anything?

Watermark them, display smaller images too.

Orpeanut · May 17, 2011

The top photo was shot through chain link fence and I adjusted the black point. I would agree that I got carried away with the amount of photos. I generally try to keep a softball game down to closer to a hundred photos.

Molotov Everything wrote: »

I don't know if it necessarily effects sales but I do think there's too many photos there. 250 could have been cut down to 150 I think.
Also, compare these 2 shots:

There's such an obvious difference between the colors in the two, the first one is clear and vibrant and the second looks washed out. And going by the file names, the first one wasn't edited and the second one was. A lot of them have that grey hazy look to them and it seems to be the edited ones.
Someone else want to chime in on this? I don't think it's my monitor but who knows.

MileHighAko · May 17, 2011

It is easy to get carried away with youth sports. It's fun to shoot, fun to share, and fun to look at. But if you're wanting to get parents to part with their cash in the form of print or digital sales, then you'll want to cut it way back and only display your best edited photos. Parents will buy, but the colors have to pop and the poses need to be excellent.

torags · May 17, 2011

Welcome to the real world. Perhaps your expectations were too high?

Good suggestions here

denisegoldberg · May 17, 2011

Orpeanut wrote: »

Thanks for the link Denise,

Too bad Smugmug can't fix the problem

It's not a smugmug problem. Anything shown on the web can be grabbed.

--- Denise

Eric T · May 17, 2011

Agreeing with the watermark. Right now kids can link to the photos on their facebook, etc. make them smaller and throw a big 50% transparent watermark in the middle of the photo. As soon as parents see the photos / kids also, they will know to remove the watermark they have to pay.

Print screen, Paste = image stolen

Zerodog · May 18, 2011

I wanted to stay away from WMing too. Until mine got stolen like crazy from an event I did. So now, it is a WM of some sort. Usually a big X with my web address right in the middle at 50%. Now when they get ripped off, and they still do, other people know where to look for them.

Vinnie33 · May 18, 2011

I have been doing this for years and the sad truth is that NOBODY buys action photos. They look, yea they look but that's it.
I have talked to many a pro photographer and all agree with me.
The sad truth of the matter is that mom or dad would rather have a stupid still shot from a half ass kid photographer that was hired for "picture day" than a great action shot. (no offense to the half ass kid)
It is tough to figure out but its the truth.

Orpeanut · May 18, 2011

Vinnie33 wrote: »

I have been doing this for years and the sad truth is that NOBODY buys action photos. They look, yea they look but that's it.
I have talked to many a pro photographer and all agree with me.
The sad truth of the matter is that mom or dad would rather have a stupid still shot from a half ass kid photographer that was hired for "picture day" than a great action shot. (no offense to the half ass kid)
It is tough to figure out but its the truth.

I'm not hoping to get rich. I made enough last year to pay for my 70-200, a 50mm 1.4, a new computer and a D7000. I go to a lot of games anyway and it keeps me quiet if I'm concentrating on taking pictures.

It just seems like sales are a lot slower this year. It is especially tough to sell pictures from outdoor sports like somone said earlier. I do better on basketball.

Gringriff · May 18, 2011

#1 GET A WATERMARK on those photos. Create one yes but for NOW go ahead and use SMUG's default.

There is always room for improvement (like vertical lines and WB) but you have some nice images. Much better than most parents can get.

I see you got rid of originals but X3Large is still pretty big with a 23" monitor. All you have to do is press PrintScreen, Open Paint, Ctrl-V, Crop, and save (try it). Hey now I can upload to Wal-Mart and print for 13 cents. No need to pay $3.50plus shipping. Add a water-mark NOW! I think mine needs to be bigger and more horrific but no water mark is taking away a huge portion of potential buyers which is a very small market to begin with. I know I face the same challenges. Good Luck.

Orpeanut · May 18, 2011

Gringriff wrote: »

#1 GET A WATERMARK on those photos. Create one yes but for NOW go ahead and use SMUG's default.

There is always room for improvement (like vertical lines and WB) but you have some nice images. Much better than most parents can get.

I see you got rid of originals but X3Large is still pretty big with a 23" monitor. All you have to do is press PrintScreen, Open Paint, Ctrl-V, Crop, and save (try it). Hey now I can upload to Wal-Mart and print for 13 cents. No need to pay $3.50plus shipping. Add a water-mark NOW! I think mine needs to be bigger and more horrific but no water mark is taking away a huge portion of potential buyers which is a very small market to begin with. I know I face the same challenges. Good Luck.

I used the smugmug watermark on my first gallery and hated how it dominated the photos. Where do you go to create one? Thanks

denisegoldberg · May 18, 2011

Orpeanut wrote: »

I used the smugmug watermark on my first gallery and hated how it dominated the photos. Where do you go to create one?

I agree with you on the smug proof watermark. It seems to me that watermark is a good tool to drive people away from looking. Yes, I'm sure it provides protection - but if people can't see the photo it's hard to convince them to buy.

Take a look at this tutorial - http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1690196.

If you don't have a tool like photoshop, you might try http://www.gimp.org/.

--- Denise

Orpeanut · May 19, 2011

denisegoldberg wrote: »

I agree with you on the smug proof watermark. It seems to me that watermark is a good tool to drive people away from looking. Yes, I'm sure it provides protection - but if people can't see the photo it's hard to convince them to buy.

Take a look at this tutorial - http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1690196.

If you don't have a tool like photoshop, you might try http://www.gimp.org/.

--- Denise

Thanks Denise, I made a watermark but it turned out way too small and light. I didn't have time to get it fixed.

mike_k · May 19, 2011

Orpeanut wrote: »

Thanks Denise, I made a watermark but it turned out way too small and light. I didn't have time to get it fixed.

One thing about the watermark tutorial - you don't have to worry about setting the opacity of the image - just make sure to use a transparent background. In the watermark setting in SmugMug you can set the fade %.

This is nice so that you don't have to go reedit your file if you think it's too light. Just adjust the watermark setting.

johng · May 19, 2011

Others have talked about the watermark and people being able to get the images for free. There are a couple other issues:
1) with so many photos - finding them or their kids. People need to see quickly that they can search and find their kids thru tags or at least sort the images by player.
2) even with #1 you need to drop the number of photos.

Another issue is cost of shipping. When I queried parents this was a big drawback for them. Gosh, I'd love to get some photos but paying $7 for shipping is just too much. This is problematic for this type of thing where someone may want just couple photos. If I'm ordering 50 photos I don't mind paying shipping. I know for instance Bay Photo upcharges smugmug for shipping. If I order direct through bay I can get free shipping. But Bay Photo charges smugmug for shipping. I expect ezprints is similar. So those shipping charges can dissuade the casual buyer.

3) In today's world, print photos just aren't in as much demand. This is a social network world. People want new photos daily to share on facebook or cell phone or email.

4) age group. HS sports just doesn't sell that well. Youth sports is a bit better but even then it's not so high.

5) back to print sales - they don't do so well - the key is "cool" products. Whether it's collages, posters. magazines etc. - in this regard, smugmug isn't a great fit for sports shooters as they don't have those product offerings.

All of which is why I no longer sell anything through smugmug really. I no longer shoot on spec. I either sell image discs or sell products that I order directly so customer doesn't see shipping. To that end, I'll be dropping my smugmug account down from Pro at renewal time. The current paradigm of ordering prints just doesn't work as well for sports work and the products people are interested in (posters, magazines, trading cards, fatheads, etc. aren't products available at smugmug).

bloomphotog · May 19, 2011

Here's what works well for me:

-Medium sized photos
-Custom Watermark
-Right click protection
-Digital downloads around $20
-Great photos

Here's an example of a runner's search results page: http://bit.ly/jx9Fz4

Orpeanut · May 20, 2011

johng wrote: »

Others have talked about the watermark and people being able to get the images for free. There are a couple other issues:
1) with so many photos - finding them or their kids. People need to see quickly that they can search and find their kids thru tags or at least sort the images by player.
2) even with #1 you need to drop the number of photos.

Another issue is cost of shipping. When I queried parents this was a big drawback for them. Gosh, I'd love to get some photos but paying $7 for shipping is just too much. This is problematic for this type of thing where someone may want just couple photos. If I'm ordering 50 photos I don't mind paying shipping. I know for instance Bay Photo upcharges smugmug for shipping. If I order direct through bay I can get free shipping. But Bay Photo charges smugmug for shipping. I expect ezprints is similar. So those shipping charges can dissuade the casual buyer.

3) In today's world, print photos just aren't in as much demand. This is a social network world. People want new photos daily to share on facebook or cell phone or email.

4) age group. HS sports just doesn't sell that well. Youth sports is a bit better but even then it's not so high.

5) back to print sales - they don't do so well - the key is "cool" products. Whether it's collages, posters. magazines etc. - in this regard, smugmug isn't a great fit for sports shooters as they don't have those product offerings.

All of which is why I no longer sell anything through smugmug really. I no longer shoot on spec. I either sell image discs or sell products that I order directly so customer doesn't see shipping. To that end, I'll be dropping my smugmug account down from Pro at renewal time. The current paradigm of ordering prints just doesn't work as well for sports work and the products people are interested in (posters, magazines, trading cards, fatheads, etc. aren't products available at smugmug).

Thanks John for your input you make some good points. I agree about the shipping its hard for me to justify paying to ship something when it doubles your cost.

You brought up the number of photos too and I agree. Softball and Baseball are hard for me to keep the numbers down when I'm shooting teams I haven't done before I feel like I need to get pictures of the players just in their stance it seems like those sell even though nothings happening.

I've always appreciated seeing the photos you post. They're always really good.

insanefred · May 22, 2011

When ever I shoot an event, I can get as much as 25,000 views. Yet, not one sale. I prefer to just get paid to photograph the event now. Print, share and etc... But don't claim it's yours or doctor it in anyway.
I photograph because I enjoy it, not because I expect to make living off of it.
I no longer have a Pro account because of this.

KMCC · May 23, 2011

Perhaps, this thread has already run its course, but I just wanted to add a couple of comments.

Based on my experience, print sales of high school sports is anything but dead. Sales volume can be directly impacted by how well you market your product. Just shooting a game and posting a gallery isn't enough. You need to interface with booster clubs, team coaches, and athletic directors to make sure people know that the photos are available.

I also find that some sports sell well and others don't. Softball tends to be on the "doesn't sell well" end of the spectrum along with basketball. Football and lacrosse are my two best sports in terms of sale's volume. That said, I'm sure that there are regional differences on what sports will result in the best sales.

One last suggestion. A number of your shots are tilted to the right. Unless that was your intent, I'd recommend that you make sure that the background and/or horizon in your shots are level.

Orpeanut · May 23, 2011

KMCC wrote: »

Perhaps, this thread has already run its course, but I just wanted to add a couple of comments.

Based on my experience, print sales of high school sports is anything but dead. Sales volume can be directly impacted by how well you market your product. Just shooting a game and posting a gallery isn't enough. You need to interface with booster clubs, team coaches, and athletic directors to make sure people know that the photos are available.

I also find that some sports sell well and others don't. Softball tends to be on the "doesn't sell well" end of the spectrum along with basketball. Football and lacrosse are my two best sports in terms of sale's volume. That said, I'm sure that there are regional differences on what sports will result in the best sales.

One last suggestion. A number of your shots are tilted to the right. Unless that was your intent, I'd recommend that you make sure that the background and/or horizon in your shots are level.

Thanks for the reminder about tilt. I'm working at trying to stop the problem but I do it a lot. I grow weary of correcting them so they don't all get fixed.

David Evertsen · May 23, 2011

KMCC wrote: »

Perhaps, this thread has already run its course, but I just wanted to add a couple of comments.

Based on my experience, print sales of high school sports is anything but dead. Sales volume can be directly impacted by how well you market your product. Just shooting a game and posting a gallery isn't enough. You need to interface with booster clubs, team coaches, and athletic directors to make sure people know that the photos are available.

I also find that some sports sell well and others don't. Softball tends to be on the "doesn't sell well" end of the spectrum along with basketball. Football and lacrosse are my two best sports in terms of sale's volume. That said, I'm sure that there are regional differences on what sports will result in the best sales.

One last suggestion. A number of your shots are tilted to the right. Unless that was your intent, I'd recommend that you make sure that the background and/or horizon in your shots are level.

I agree with Kent that this may have run its course but I though I would add a few things, Football and Cheer sell well. Lacrosse even better but I know the parents really well, you have to get the word out amongst everything you do. Softball does not sell well for me either the only thing I really sold was the Candids and the team photos , the candids really did better. I will not shoot in the daytime for a parent that asks unless I know them really well, and then I have learned to say no most of the time, Good Enough kills me in the day time. I have shot for two HS in the past year and just showing up is not enough, you have to get a relationship with the schools meaning Adminsitration Coach, Yearbook/Newspaper staff and their parents, quality products always do well but, not as well as you would think.

JohnG, several others on Dgrin and photographer friends of mine. Do not take too many pictures, if there is a nice one of Suzy hitting the ball post it but not the whole sequence post the best one, unless you have a way to point the intended audience to that picture. Player Number galleries for me are huge, since I set them up in January using PhotoMechanic Code Replacement and Smart Galleries on Smugmug. I have had parents purchase the entire gallery of their kids Lacrosse pictures for digital downloads, and my sales have increased in the passed two months like none other, even prints sales have increased bigtime.

My Lacrosse Parents are my sounding board and they honestly say they love my pictures but even a gallery of 200 is a chore to look through with short attention spans and parents time constraints. They used the word chore not me, they would have their kids make a list of pics and never purchase, now I make the list for them as best I can tell and they can look at pictures of the only kid they really care about, their own. The feedback as been huge, this is not a cure all but it is something to save folks time buying pictures from me.

Funny thing is I love shooting dance and always break out Dance photos by the competition number meaning the group number/name/solo/duo their kid was in and it works like a charm. So translating this to HS Sports like Football for all players will be a challenge but, I had a parent two years ago tell me she just wanted me to accumulate all her kids pictures and I honestly can now and make it an impulse buy for prints or downloads. I did not use those words my Lacrosse moms did..

This thread could be a lot longer just about "Good Enough" and sports shooters, but like anything else in life and business it is about developing relationships with your customer and selling them what they want. It has taken me a while to get there but next school year is looking really good, two years of shooting HS Sports I have learned what is worth my time in my area and what is not even if I enjoy one sport more than another. Then again developing relationships has allowed me to also start shooting some College sports in my area and getting paid to shoot.

Bryce Wilson · May 23, 2011

Look into a digital download option. With the little sports and dance candid photography I do, the biggest seller I have by far is the instant download.

All images are presented watermarked and small. For five bucks they can download a watermark free 900x720 image. This is very nice size to display on a monitor or the web, but not so much for printing. Bonus for you is No shipping fees and no additional work on your part for printing and shipping. It is not uncommon for someone to buy 10 different shots at five bucks a piece. In this digital age, I see this as a new frontier.

Funny thing about prints though. Product I put up at the beginning of April is now just getting print orders. After 30 days and then again at 60 I send a reminder e mail that prints are still available to order for a limited time.

Good luck.

Damon016 · June 5, 2011

I know a lot of people have said this, but will say it again. "watermark, watermark, watermark!" - I ran into the issue with people taking photos when I first started. I stopped about 90% of them when I placed the watermark on the photo. The things I shoot (everyone knows everyone.) so when a couple of facebook accounts were deleted after repeated taking of my photos it really struck a nerve. 1 year later, there is a very rare instance where someone takes something (but in my watermark) it states "I stole this photo" so generally someone sais something before I get to it.

On the basis of sales... Times are tough... Some people just want to look, others bring their own camera and shoot, and some will purchase. Depending on the event I agree with some of the folks when they say (edit) your best and put up. Other times (if you know) the people you work with advise them that when they purchase a picture that you will edit it, and what not for them before you send to them. It's trial an error... hell I want to do print on site, have the equipment, thermal printer, 5 min photo, and haven't used it one time... eventually I will try it out... I think the print on site is the way to go, but I have to get an assistant that can learn the stuff and can run it when I am not around. Good luck!

almost 16,000 views in 2 1/2 days but no sales

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