First attempt at outdoor swimming - c&c please help me!

imagesofhim · May 17, 2011

It was horribly difficult to shoot & yell for my daughter at the same time. This is the first time I've ever been at a meet where I was allowed on the deck to shoot... Please give me feedback-she took 2nd in the fly and it looks like we'll be going back to this same pool in the next month... I'd love to come back with some spectacular shots!

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Wiren · May 18, 2011

Well, it's always great to have the chance to shoot your own child! I have never gotten to shoot swimming (although I have thought about it from time to time), so please take this with a grain of salt. I know nothing of where on the deck you were allowed to be, what focal length you got to shoot with or your experience in shooting. I comment only on what I see and as I have no experience..... well, enough said.

1. I would try to be more at the profile angle of view for two reasons. A) To get a better sense of the swimmer.... straight in on the dive shots, the body is at an angle that is compressed, thus not giving the full image of the swimmer - full or semi-profile I think would be best (that is, if you were allowed on a part of the deck that you can get the POV from....) and

Background.... in the dive shots, I keep looking at the not quite blurred out crowd of onlookers..... this can be solved by either a really fast long lens cropped, or... move to the side and get an angle of view with the least amount of people and if any... farther away and more oof, thus lending the subject of the photo more credence for the eye to focus on.

2. Timing.... If you shoot or have shot other sports, I am sure you know that timing the peak action gets your best shots. The dive is when she is in mid-air... Try this.... close your eyes, imagine being at an angle of view just off of full profile, just low enough to get her, but still see the water well. As she dives in, you hit the trigger just as her hands are entering the water.... just a slight splash of water movement, the anticipation on her face as she is taking that final breath, the focus in her eye - try to time it, just as her fingers are brushing the water, and just before she folds her head in, at that point when she is still looking where she is diving but just about to "tuck".

in the laps.... get her just as she is breaking the surface of the water, another when she is taking that breath and also when she is just about to go back under......granted... I know there are different types of swim categories, so pardon if I got the going under part wrong... maybe the fly doesn't do that..., you did get some decent water action, but I think that a little lower angle of view may have helped.... were you kneeling for these? Try sitting right on your butt so you can prop a knee up and use it as an elbow rest. How many laps are there, do you get more than one lap coming your way after the initial dive?

My suggestion..... move down the sideline of the pool for the angle of view with less people and and a better semi-profile for the dive. Snap a few tight crops of the initial strokes. If you get a second pass with her coming towards you, take the time after the initial strokes to move to the end of the pool, sit down (get low) for all your other shots, if a 3rd pass comes... move right or left just off the side of where she'll finish to get the end sequences and be able to zoom out as she is looking for the clock at her times....or at team mates, coaches....etc.

I can't wait to see your second pass, hope this helps and if I don't know what i'm talking about, tell me to shut my yap.

Lee

Wiren · May 18, 2011

Also, you may want to look at a thread Elaine started, she has some great shots..... see the profile shots, those are wiked, http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=184234 I am sure she has better advice for you than me. Good luck!

Icebear · May 18, 2011

imagesofhim wrote: »

It was horribly difficult to shoot & yell for my daughter at the same time.

It's really quite simple. You must decide whether you're there as a photographer or cheerleader. You can't do both. When your daughter's swimming. Put the camera down or give it to someone else. You'll have more fun, and maybe even get better shots of your daughter.

imagesofhim · May 18, 2011

Wiren wrote: »

Well, it's always great to have the chance to shoot your own child! I have never gotten to shoot swimming (although I have thought about it from time to time), so please take this with a grain of salt. I know nothing of where on the deck you were allowed to be, what focal length you got to shoot with or your experience in shooting. I comment only on what I see and as I have no experience..... well, enough said.

1. I would try to be more at the profile angle of view for two reasons. A) To get a better sense of the swimmer.... straight in on the dive shots, the body is at an angle that is compressed, thus not giving the full image of the swimmer - full or semi-profile I think would be best (that is, if you were allowed on a part of the deck that you can get the POV from....) and Background.... in the dive shots, I keep looking at the not quite blurred out crowd of onlookers..... this can be solved by either a really fast long lens cropped, or... move to the side and get an angle of view with the least amount of people and if any... farther away and more oof, thus lending the subject of the photo more credence for the eye to focus on.

2. Timing.... If you shoot or have shot other sports, I am sure you know that timing the peak action gets your best shots. The dive is when she is in mid-air... Try this.... close your eyes, imagine being at an angle of view just off of full profile, just low enough to get her, but still see the water well. As she dives in, you hit the trigger just as her hands are entering the water.... just a slight splash of water movement, the anticipation on her face as she is taking that final breath, the focus in her eye - try to time it, just as her fingers are brushing the water, and just before she folds her head in, at that point when she is still looking where she is diving but just about to "tuck".

in the laps.... get her just as she is breaking the surface of the water, another when she is taking that breath and also when she is just about to go back under......granted... I know there are different types of swim categories, so pardon if I got the going under part wrong... maybe the fly doesn't do that..., you did get some decent water action, but I think that a little lower angle of view may have helped.... were you kneeling for these? Try sitting right on your butt so you can prop a knee up and use it as an elbow rest. How many laps are there, do you get more than one lap coming your way after the initial dive?

My suggestion..... move down the sideline of the pool for the angle of view with less people and and a better semi-profile for the dive. Snap a few tight crops of the initial strokes. If you get a second pass with her coming towards you, take the time after the initial strokes to move to the end of the pool, sit down (get low) for all your other shots, if a 3rd pass comes... move right or left just off the side of where she'll finish to get the end sequences and be able to zoom out as she is looking for the clock at her times....or at team mates, coaches....etc.

I can't wait to see your second pass, hope this helps and if I don't know what i'm talking about, tell me to shut my yap.

Lee

Lee--thanks so much for the thought, suggestions and ideas. No, I wasn't on my butt and I obviously should have been. I shot in AE rather than Al Servo (that's the portrait shooter in me NOT paying attention)... stupid, stupid, stupid. I was shooting with my 70-200 f/4 L, so I should have paid better attention... There were parents & time keepers all around the deck so my POV was rather limited, however, I certainly could have moved around and found a better angle. I thank you again for the thoughts & ideas... I will definitely be shooting her again!

Icebear wrote: »

It's really quite simple. You must decide whether you're there as a photographer or cheerleader. You can't do both. When your daughter's swimming. Put the camera down or give it to someone else. You'll have more fun, and maybe even get better shots of your daughter.

John--you have a great idea... So, I've decided that I won't shoot when she's at Sectionals, but I will try to shoot when she's at the invitationals so I can get better at this aspect of my photography. Thanks for the reminder to live vicariously through HER rather than my lens!

Wiren · May 18, 2011

That's a great idea, to not shoot at the big events. I also do that for my daughters softball, I shoot standard games but watch the playoffs, by then I have all the material I need and can enjoy her during the important games.

I am constantly checking my settings as I have been doing portrature, mostly landscape and alway have the settings mixed up - I have made this little internal checklist.... mostly I forget to take the camera out of bracketing and not know it unless I chimp my shots and wonder why it's darker than should be.

That 70-200 should be good at f4 outside in AI mode... to get rid of the bg people... crop as tight as needed to mainly get just her body, in the end crop, you may choose to forgo the feet and just get the upper torso that still shows she is diving. I will look to see what you get next time, I would love to have an excuse to go shoot some swimming but haven't had the time or the opportunity yet. Good Luck.

Lee

Gringriff · May 18, 2011

Icebear wrote: »

It's really quite simple. You must decide whether you're there as a photographer or cheerleader. You can't do both. When your daughter's swimming. Put the camera down or give it to someone else. You'll have more fun, and maybe even get better shots of your daughter.

Another idea maybe - Take pictures while she is coming towards your position before she starts to get tired and her form will be better. Then after the turn let you camera hang and start cheering and encouraging more when she needs it most.

imagesofhim · May 18, 2011

Gringriff wrote: »

Another idea maybe - Take pictures while she is coming towards your position before she starts to get tired and her form will be better. Then after the turn let you camera hang and start cheering and encouraging more when she needs it most.

AWESOME idea! Thanks a million!!!

Zerodog · May 19, 2011

To improve on this you just need to hear it.
OK here is my take.
#1 Too far away, busy background, busy background too in focus, dude looking at his phone
#2 Good action, shot too centered in frame, focus is soft (looks to be just in front of swimmer)
#3 Nothing going on at all,
#4 very soft focus
#5 again, nothing going on.

On all, closer, closer, and more in focus.

The good part about all of these is you did it. The more you do it, the better you will get. Make sure your shutter speed is up there, your focus tracking is doing its thing, and you are using f4 or less to blur your background. Look for your shots to be less centered. Get the swimmer right up front if they are coming at you. And get nice and low. The lower you get, the cooler it will look. Post back when you do some more.

imagesofhim · May 19, 2011

Zerodog wrote: »

To improve on this you just need to hear it.
OK here is my take.
#1 Too far away, busy background, busy background too in focus, dude looking at his phone
#2 Good action, shot too centered in frame, focus is soft (looks to be just in front of swimmer)
#3 Nothing going on at all,
#4 very soft focus
#5 again, nothing going on.

On all, closer, closer, and more in focus.

The good part about all of these is you did it. The more you do it, the better you will get. Make sure your shutter speed is up there, your focus tracking is doing its thing, and you are using f4 or less to blur your background. Look for your shots to be less centered. Get the swimmer right up front if they are coming at you. And get nice and low. The lower you get, the cooler it will look. Post back when you do some more.

Thank you for the objectivity and hints. I will definitely be working on these thing as the season continues!

SwimShooter · May 24, 2011

Don't get on here much but let me know if you still want help shooting swimming. I shoot swimming professionally year round.

Here are some samples if you want to take a look: http://www.weihlphotography.com/Samples/Composites-Sports

Quick suggestions:

(1) Always shoot squatting down rather than standing or kneeling. You want the viewpoint to be straight across the water rather than angled down on the swimmer.
(2) Shoot fly just as you did, head on from the turn end. Harder to get age groupers in a 50m pool doing fly. By the time you can get a good shot, their arms aren't coming out of the water. So for young swimmers who aren't strong enough yet, shoot fly angled from the 25m mark on the side.
(3) Shoot free and back from the side and not right up on them if they are in the outer lane.
(4) Shoot breast angled from the side.

I shoot both indoor and outdoor. Glad to help if I can.

John Patrick · May 24, 2011

OK, my thoughts. I haven't read the others, so it may seem repetitive:

First photo is too late. And shot from too high a position, as that flag line will get in the way.

Photos 2, 3, and 4 all have the same issues: You're too high and too late.

Last photo has better timing, but you're way high and the color doesn't match the others. I can tell that you're in auto white balance here. Given the apparent evenness of the light, you should be in manual exposure mode and a specific white balance.

Shoot tight and low and get your timing down. That will help the most.

John

imagesofhim · May 24, 2011

SwimShooter wrote: »

Don't get on here much but let me know if you still want help shooting swimming. I shoot swimming professionally year round.

Here are some samples if you want to take a look: http://www.weihlphotography.com/Samples/Composites-Sports

Quick suggestions:

(1) Always shoot squatting down rather than standing or kneeling. You want the viewpoint to be straight across the water rather than angled down on the swimmer.
(2) Shoot fly just as you did, head on from the turn end. Harder to get age groupers in a 50m pool doing fly. By the time you can get a good shot, their arms aren't coming out of the water. So for young swimmers who aren't strong enough yet, shoot fly angled from the 25m mark on the side.
(3) Shoot free and back from the side and not right up on them if they are in the outer lane.
(4) Shoot breast angled from the side.

I shoot both indoor and outdoor. Glad to help if I can.

Thank you SO much for the information... This is the first time I've shot swimming and any real action... I'm a "still-life" photog by trade! We have at least 2 more outdoor meets and countless indoor meets. I'm really struggling with indoor, but I've decided I need the 70-200 2.8 for indoor, so that's next on my list to purchase. I will DESPERATELY try to incorporate your suggestions at the next meet and I might likely be bending your ear! Thanks again--it's TRULY appreciated.

imagesofhim · May 24, 2011

John Patrick wrote: »

OK, my thoughts. I haven't read the others, so it may seem repetitive:

First photo is too late. And shot from too high a position, as that flag line will get in the way.

Photos 2, 3, and 4 all have the same issues: You're too high and too late.

Last photo has better timing, but you're way high and the color doesn't match the others. I can tell that you're in auto white balance here. Given the apparent evenness of the light, you should be in manual exposure mode and a specific white balance.

Shoot tight and low and get your timing down. That will help the most.

John

John,

Thank you the information... this "sport" thing is totally new and FOREIGN to me! I will work on it and hope to post more shots soon. Thanks again.

Zerodog · May 25, 2011

I have been thinking about this swimming thing. Swimming has to be a rough sport to photograph. There are quite a few challenges. #1 in my mind is for many swimming strokes the subject is in and out of the water. Hard for AF to track an object that goes in and out of view. Then there is splashing. What is to say your AF doesn't grab some splashing water or just freak out on the constant color of the pool water. Another issue is getting low enough. Ideally you need to be in the pool....

Icebear · May 25, 2011

Zerodog wrote: »

Ideally you need to be in the pool....

Try it and let us know how your D3 likes the chlorine!

puzzledpaul · May 25, 2011

Zerodog wrote: »

Another issue is getting low enough. Ideally you need to be in the pool....

Even assuming you can't get in the pool - or hang the cam over the side - using an angle finder (+ beanbag) would be my suggestion.

pp

Zerodog · May 25, 2011

Icebear wrote: »

Try it and let us know how your D3 likes the chlorine!

rofl

SwimShooter · May 25, 2011

imagesofhim wrote: »

Thank you SO much for the information... This is the first time I've shot swimming and any real action... I'm a "still-life" photog by trade! We have at least 2 more outdoor meets and countless indoor meets. I'm really struggling with indoor, but I've decided I need the 70-200 2.8 for indoor, so that's next on my list to purchase. I will DESPERATELY try to incorporate your suggestions at the next meet and I might likely be bending your ear! Thanks again--it's TRULY appreciated.

It takes a while to get used to swimming with the added complexity of the water and it is so different from shooting still portraits. Feel free to email with questions (see website for contact info) and I'll do my best to help. I agree on the need for the 70-200 F2.8 L. I use it for all swim meets, short & long course, indoor & outdoor. It's the perfect lens for swimming unless you are shooting several swimmers in a 10 lane pool.

A few other things to maybe note:

- Always use center point focus and aim for the goggles.
- Shutter speed at least 1/500. Indoor you will have to bump up the ISO and may need Lightroom to reduce graininess depending on the camera. That is a problem with my 50D inside but not with my Mark IV.
- Don't ever try to compensate with a flash or you will make the officials nervous and won't get back on the pool deck. Also get very good and not being in the path of the officials and if you come up behind them, let them know you are there. For sanctioned USA and NCAA meets, get meet director's permission to be on deck even if it is not roped off.
- Always shoot in burst mode.
- With my 50D I shot Av always at 2.8 for indoor and 3.2 for outdoor. Can't shoot manual because the lighting is constantly changing as you are shooting the race and sweeping from one end of the pool to the other. With my Mark IV that is no longer a problem and Manual works well because of the nice Auto ISO logic.

Hope this helps.

imagesofhim · May 26, 2011

SwimShooter wrote: »

It takes a while to get used to swimming with the added complexity of the water and it is so different from shooting still portraits. Feel free to email with questions (see website for contact info) and I'll do my best to help. I agree on the need for the 70-200 F2.8 L. I use it for all swim meets, short & long course, indoor & outdoor. It's the perfect lens for swimming unless you are shooting several swimmers in a 10 lane pool.

A few other things to maybe note:

- Always use center point focus and aim for the goggles.
- Shutter speed at least 1/500. Indoor you will have to bump up the ISO and may need Lightroom to reduce graininess depending on the camera. That is a problem with my 50D inside but not with my Mark IV.
- Don't ever try to compensate with a flash or you will make the officials nervous and won't get back on the pool deck. Also get very good and not being in the path of the officials and if you come up behind them, let them know you are there. For sanctioned USA and NCAA meets, get meet director's permission to be on deck even if it is not roped off.
- Always shoot in burst mode.
- With my 50D I shot Av always at 2.8 for indoor and 3.2 for outdoor. Can't shoot manual because the lighting is constantly changing as you are shooting the race and sweeping from one end of the pool to the other. With my Mark IV that is no longer a problem and Manual works well because of the nice Auto ISO logic.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again--I'm shooting with a 7d and I plan to order the 2.8 within the week. I'm somewhat "lucky" because my husband is USA Swimming official and I've found they are more than happy to tell me where I'm best kept out of their way while still being in a very descent position. I shot indoor last weekend and am NOT happy with the results--that's why I haven't posted them yet. I will get up the "gumption" to post them and get some more insight from you... It's just such a foreign concept to me right now and I find that I'm getting frustrated. I know that with practice, I will improve... it's just that old "I-want-it-now" mentality kicking in!

Focus on goggles rather than nose... I will DEFINITELY set my focal points there next time... I knew about the flash and can certainly understand why it's a "no-flash" zone!

Once again, I truly appreciate the help and your insight. I'm hoping to have this down a bit better before SCY starts again! I figure LCY gives me the advantage of shooting the same subject more often, thereby, allowing me a higher learning curve. Wish me luck!

spikedcarla · May 28, 2011

As a long time swim parent I have a few suggestions. Practice taking action shots when your daughter is in the warm down pool or warm up pool.

Breast stroke is the easiest one to photograph so hopefully that will be her best.

I love action shots of swimming, but I have found that some of the shots that I have come to love the most are the ones of my son that tell a story: the focus, concentration, and stretching on the block before their race; the look on their face after finishing ( squat down low just behind the timers if you can); the talk with the coach - pre and post race.; the photo of their time on the score board; a picture of the poster that says what meet it is - (nationals, ncaa, olympic trials) and the venue; the laughter with their teammates.

Most of the big meets are indoors with horrible lighting but trust me you will want a record of that accomplishment.

Enjoy the ride, swimming has been a wonderful sport for my son for over 15 years providing him with opportunities to travel and a host of friends.

SwimShooter · May 28, 2011

imagesofhim wrote: »

Thanks again--I'm shooting with a 7d and I plan to order the 2.8 within the week. I'm somewhat "lucky" because my husband is USA Swimming official and I've found they are more than happy to tell me where I'm best kept out of their way while still being in a very descent position. I shot indoor last weekend and am NOT happy with the results--that's why I haven't posted them yet. I will get up the "gumption" to post them and get some more insight from you... It's just such a foreign concept to me right now and I find that I'm getting frustrated. I know that with practice, I will improve... it's just that old "I-want-it-now" mentality kicking in!

Focus on goggles rather than nose... I will DEFINITELY set my focal points there next time... I knew about the flash and can certainly understand why it's a "no-flash" zone!

Once again, I truly appreciate the help and your insight. I'm hoping to have this down a bit better before SCY starts again! I figure LCY gives me the advantage of shooting the same subject more often, thereby, allowing me a higher learning curve. Wish me luck!

If you can upload (or even email) one of your indoor shots and tell me your settings, I could make better suggestions. But in general for indoor:

- try Tv with shutter speed at 1/500 and ISO as high as you can go, reasonably
- There is normally a point somewhere on one side of the pool that is brighter. Walk around with your camera during warm-ups and do a lighting test to find that spot. Shoot from there.
- As long as you stay 3-4 feet from the pool edge, you will be out of the way
- Shoot the swimmer while in the deep end to get a nicer blue water color

Feel free to contact me if you have questions.

email: jan@weihlphotography.com
website: www.weihlphotography.com

First attempt at outdoor swimming - c&c please help me!

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