Super-advanced booking

Kinkajou · May 27, 2011

I am working with a bride now who is trying to make a decision on a photographer for her 2014 wedding. Yes. Two thousand and fourteen!

I quoted her (assuming she had mistyped the year) and things seemed to be moving along well. When she told me that 2014 was in fact correct and she was just feeling around to get an idea, I said that as a heads up most photographers increase their rates annually, so she can't be guaranteed a price from me or any other photographer until a contract is signed. Her response to that was that she is hoping to make a decision and sign a contract soon.

So... I'm obviously feeling conflicted here. I'm new in the industry and still desperate for gigs, but 2014 is a long time from now, so who know what my rates would be by that point or where I'll be in life (or where she'll be in life!). I have not said anything about 'I only book a maximum X months in advance' (because I didn't have that policy yet), which I now feel like might be a little late to do if I want to maintain the relationship... but she must know that she's catching me between a rock and a hard place.

Anyway, I know I need to make a decision here and either way it'll get chalked up to a lesson learned, but my question for you guys is what is your maximum months in advance that you'll book? 12? 18? 24? No max?

Thanks!

ssimmonsphoto · May 27, 2011

I don't have a policy in place, but I don't want to book more than 24 months in advance for all of the reasons you have given. Plus, what if something happens to you in the next bunch of years? I have a hard time with the 24 months sometimes, but I also like knowing that I'll still have business in two years.

No matter what your opinion is of her, I know, after watching the last Creative Live thingy, that J Star doesn't book more than 12 months in advance. So clients have to wait until then to book even if they know 2 years out that they want her.

shming · May 27, 2011

Depending on your price range - 2 years is not that unusual. Take it as a compliment, she probably is not "price shopping" she is shopping for art (that is me going on assumption) We had a couple that had over a 2 year engagement. The detail that they spent on their wedding day was nothing less than exquisite.

tenoverthenose · May 27, 2011

Beyond pricing, place in life, etc., I'm not sure that I would like to work with the type of bride that would book my services three years out.

Moogle Pepper · May 27, 2011

I couldn't allow myself to book that far in advanced. Mostly a year to the actual wedding date would I allow an early booking.

Matthew Saville · May 27, 2011

I would give them a "buy the date ONLY" price. Say, $1000-$2000 or so. All you can do, that far in advance, is promise to lock it down on your calendar, promise to show up and cover, say, ~8-10 hrs of coverage. Aside from that, I would simply tell the client that your business just doesn't have the resources to handle complete bookings that far in advance. Take it or leave it. And of course, that is IF you aren't planning on any significant life changes within the next couple years. Personally, who knows I might be trying to start a family then, or moving to Alaska, or whatever. So, only do it if you're totally confident in your ability to "show up" on that date, and of course only do it if you really "click" with this person, and you can tell that you're gonna be good friends by the end of this, and (duh) if she's willing to pay...

The most I usually book in advance is *roughly* 12-14 months out.

[edit]
Oppositely, if the bride is NOT able to be firm about her date just yet, but still wants to "square things away", ...then the best you can do is to give a VERY high price and promise to deliver package XYZ. Of course, the bride would still have to pay a non-refundable deposit, and would DEFINITELY have to sign a waiver that this is based on your availability alone, and if she doesn't communicate with you properly when picking a date, you can't guarantee that you'll be available. But, this could turn into a huge mess if you "hit it big" and start booking dates left and right, some time in late 2013 lol. Again, I would just focus on becoming friends with this girl, keep in touch and keep her name jotted down on your calendar. You can't afford to do this with every single inquiry of course, but if you can tell that she's serious and she'll have the money, then give it a shot and chalk it up to experience. We'd love to hear from you in 2.5 years to know how it turned out,

!

=Matt=

Kinkajou · May 27, 2011

Yes, she does have a date and a venue... which is why I had assumed that she had mistyped the year. I quoted her what's currently on my webpage and we talked a little bit about albums.

I am thinking of some kind of condition like 'if you sign a contract now and I happen move to another city between now and then, you agree to pay mileage/travel for the change in distance' or something. But yeah, I am not at a point where I can feel comfortable passing on any opportunity... I'm still only in the single digits of weddings under my belt. Anyway, She seems friendly so far and I think the relationship on a person-to-person level would probably be fine...

I think for the future I'll do an 18 or 24 month rule. I remember seeing Jasmine Star's thing about 12 months in advance, which seems a little short to me, but three years in advance is just scary and weird

Qarik · May 27, 2011

just charge her your current rate, sign contracts and be done with it.

mercphoto · May 27, 2011

Sheer curiosity on my part, but how do you handle life's uncertainties on something this far in advance? I certainly did not know in November that by January I would have spinal surgery and be out-of-the-game for 6-9 months. The thought of scheduling something three years from now.... wow!

Kinkajou · May 27, 2011

mercphoto wrote: »

Sheer curiosity on my part, but how do you handle life's uncertainties on something this far in advance? I certainly did not know in November that by January I would have spinal surgery and be out-of-the-game for 6-9 months. The thought of scheduling something three years from now.... wow!

That's why you have a clause in your contract about finding a replacement in case you cannot shoot

Art Scott · May 27, 2011

I have booked work out as much as 5 yrs......I would not do that now.....but I would go out as far as 24 months......and here is how I would do it.

1- take a non refundable retainer......I quite using deposit as that gives the impression that one can get it back.....so non refundable deposit is kind of an oxymoron.....Attorneys use retainer to imply the time is retained and that is it.....if the attorney is on retainer, they normally do not subtract the retainer fee from the billed hours...it just means that you paid him/her to be on call for you or to work for you....we as photographers will subtract the retainer from the final cost of the bill.......

2- put in bold type that the cost of materials and all incidentals could substantially increase in this time frame ( I am talking upgrades for all necessary software, every thing you use), therefore the final price cannot be determined at this point. you will contact her 6 months ahead of the wedding date to set times for engagement portrait, and final billing of amount due and the retainer is still part of the final price (if you do that now....for me it is a piece of the final total price). OR.....charge her for the most expensive package you have and still say if the cost of doing business rises more than 10 or 20% that you will have to increase the amount at that time by that much.......Keep you tail covered....she is trying to get a 2014 wedding at 2011 prices and if the caterer, cake chef and such sign final contracts they very well could lose their tails......I would only take the retainer, because our lives can change in an instant.......do a free portrait setting for them ....an early engagement set.....with the follow up engagement setting 6 months prior to the wedding......

It is nice to book ahead......but that far out do not take payment in full only a retainer....tell her to put the rest into a savings account and draw interest on it..........safer for you both.

bnlearle · May 28, 2011

I'm just barely comfortable booking a year out. Wouldn't ever consider a wedding in 2014 unless it were double or triple my current rates -- and even then, I wouldn't do it.

I'd let her know that I simply don't book out that far in advance. Too many things could happen in that amount of time. You could go bankrupt and lose your gear. Your gear could get stolen and you can't afford new gear (unless you have insurance). You could get offered an amazing job opportunity and never shoot another wedding again. Since you're just starting out you could easily be charging quadruple what you're charging now. You could get pregnant with triplets and never ever want to try and shoot a wedding again...

Just too many things.

Tell her that she can email you back at the end of 2012 or the beginning of 2013 -- that you won't fill the date by then for anyone else other than Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie -- so if she emails you at that time, she'll still have full chance to book you.

Believe me, if you are in this business to become a full time pro, you don't want to be shooting ANY weddings 3 years from now at your starting prices. Have the confidence that you'll be way beyond what you are now (single digit weddings a year, starting out, probably not charging a large amount, etc).

Just my two cents

bnlearle · May 28, 2011

Also, weddings this far in advance are VERY questionable, imo. Many times, I'll have brides email me about booking really far in advance, I tell them to come back later, they friend me on facebook, and I see a year later that they canceled the engagement. Lots of time people that are waiting years and years to get married are doing so for obvious reasons -- they like the idea of getting married but are putting it off because they aren't ready.

In my career, I haven't had a SINGLE bride email me about these way in advance weddings who ended up getting married (many of them request me on Facebook, I take their info down, and check in on them regularly). I'm sure it happens, but in my business' experience, it hasn't ever happened. And I know the same for many of my colleagues. If you do take the wedding, take a VERY large NON-refundable RETAINER (not deposit) and spell out in your contract that "the non-refundable retainer is for the service of blocking off your wedding date and turning away other potential clients -- both of which you do not do for free -- and is not refundable under any reason should the date be canceled". You don't want to be holding a date for 3 years, scheduling your life around that date for 3 years, only for her to cancel and you got a $500 retainer (that she'll fight you on if you don't spell this out clearly).

If you're going to go through with it, at least 50% and explain to her that if the date is canceled for any reason, it still isn't refunded.

Two more cents

Stuart-M · May 28, 2011

Qarik wrote: »

just charge her your current rate, sign contracts and be done with it.

Shouldn't treat her badly, what a way to treat somebody that wants to book you.

bnlearle · May 28, 2011

It has nothing to do with treating her badly. It's called being responsible with your booking. And for every business, that is going to be different.

For EVERYONE, yourself included, there's a number that will eventually be problematic. Whether it's a year in advance, 3 years, 5 years, or 10 years in advance, there's a number for everyone that will have them responding "you know what, that's just too far in advance for my business..." Not to mention the fact that there's good, solid reasoning behind the idea that booking really far in advance is problematic. There's a reason that nearly every full-time, establish pro tends to stay around the 1 year in advance mark. And it isn't because they are being mean.

So again, not booking three years in advance has nothing to do with treating someone poorly. It has to do with how one runs a business. No right or wrong way -- just what's the most wise and responsible. And since people run their businesses differently, the answer to the question is going to be subjective.

Shima · May 30, 2011

I think 12-24 months is reasonable but beyond that is so unpredictable. That being said I've seen a lot of photographers that put up wedding photography prices for the current year and the next year so that they don't have to book people who are a year or so out at their current pricing. I think that's not a bad idea to do if you're considering increasing your prices.

Travel · May 30, 2011

For those photographers who at familiar with Bar Mitzvahs, the parents know when the child will turn 13 and they sometimes book years in advance. If you are going to break into he big bucks $10k+ you need to be confortable with years in advance booking. That being said I also found some of my biggest weddings were on very short bookings because rich people know that with money they can get planning done fast and good.

Shima · May 30, 2011

Ok and now that Terry has actually proposed today, I can say the part I left off in my previous post

We booked Christine Meintjes for our Cape Town, South Africa wedding 18 months in advance

I know she's well known out there and figured since we knew our date now and it was a special date 12/12/12 that might be popular as time gets closer, we didn't want to wait and risk not getting the person we wanted!

Kinkajou · May 31, 2011

Yes, for the record I do request a $500 retainer and I do have a 'if I cannot shoot, then I have the right to find a suitable replacement for you' clause. I think after this I'm going to make the policy 18 months... more than that just gets scary to me

bnlearle · May 31, 2011

Travel wrote: »

If you are going to break into he big bucks $10k+ you need to be confortable with years in advance booking. That being said I also found some of my biggest weddings were on very short bookings because rich people know that with money they can get planning done fast and good.

I get 10k-15k brides a fair bit. And I have many friends who do the same. I don't know one of them who would take a 3yr advanced booking unless it were Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie -- or for a TON of cash.

That isn't to say the OP should or shouldn't -- just saying that you don't need to be comfortable with super advanced booking at all in order to make it to the 10k+ range

Shima · May 31, 2011

bnlearle wrote: »

I get 10k-15k brides a fair bit. And I have many friends who do the same. I don't know one of them who would take a 3yr advanced booking unless it were Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie -- or for a TON of cash.

That isn't to say the OP should or shouldn't -- just saying that you don't need to be comfortable with super advanced booking at all in order to make it to the 10k+ range

My question is if your brides are 10-15k do you require a percentage of the total as the retainer? Or a fixed lower fee? I'd hope you're getting at least 1-2k for that retainer....

Stuart-M · May 31, 2011

bnlearle wrote: »

It has nothing to do with treating her badly. It's called being responsible with your booking. And for every business, that is going to be different.

For EVERYONE, yourself included, there's a number that will eventually be problematic. Whether it's a year in advance, 3 years, 5 years, or 10 years in advance, there's a number for everyone that will have them responding "you know what, that's just too far in advance for my business..." Not to mention the fact that there's good, solid reasoning behind the idea that booking really far in advance is problematic. There's a reason that nearly every full-time, establish pro tends to stay around the 1 year in advance mark. And it isn't because they are being mean.

So again, not booking three years in advance has nothing to do with treating someone poorly. It has to do with how one runs a business. No right or wrong way -- just what's the most wise and responsible. And since people run their businesses differently, the answer to the question is going to be subjective.

Well, your advice was that you expected the client to cancel before the wedding, and to therefore take a huge non-refundable retainer. Seems like you are advising her to take advantage of the client in a pretty nasty way to me. Maybe I misunderstood though?

Obviously if she doesn't want a booking that far out, she just shouldn't take it. On the other hand, if she does take the booking, I don't see why it should be on harsher terms than normal.

bnlearle · June 1, 2011

Shima wrote: »

My question is if your brides are 10-15k do you require a percentage of the total as the retainer? Or a fixed lower fee? I'd hope you're getting at least 1-2k for that retainer....

My retainers are dependent on location -- as I shoot overseas a fair amount. But my local retainers are $2000 -- I think 25% is fair and when I made that retainer (back in 2008, probably?), my average wedding was about $8k.

But again, I'm not booking them more than a year out -- and I've never had a high-end bride in that time frame cancel on me. So the retainer for these more normal weddings (in regard to booking in more average time frames) isn't really important to me

Brides on more of a budget who book faaaaarrrr out in advance, however, I find have canceled much more than average.

Stuart-M wrote: »

Well, your advice was that you expected the client to cancel before the wedding, and to therefore take a huge non-refundable retainer. Seems like you are advising her to take advantage of the client in a pretty nasty way to me. Maybe I misunderstood though?

Obviously if she doesn't want a booking that far out, she just shouldn't take it. On the other hand, if she does take the booking, I don't see why it should be on harsher terms than normal.

I think you might be misunderstanding me

I'm not saying to expect the client to cancel. I'm saying that in my experience -- and in the experience of all the photographers I'm friends with -- budget brides who book out YEARS in advance cancel their weddings far more than average. It's bad business to act like there's no difference.

I think you might be making the mistake of not seeing that holding a date is a service. A service with value. Do you mark dates off of your calendar for free? Do you turn other clients away for free? I know I don't. This is a service I charge for -- even if I don't shoot the wedding. So if someone is going to have me hold their date for 3 years, and I have good reason to believe that people who book out that far in advance have a higher risk of canceling, I am going to charge more for the service of marking off their date and turning other clients away than I would for a normal client who is getting married in 6-18 months.

In the end, so long as they get married, they will be paying the same amount. You're just getting more upfront because there's WAY more potential time in there for pre-marital problems to arrive.

It's no harsher than some photographers charging more for peak day weddings (saturdays in summer, for example) and charging less for a last minute, tuesday afternoon wedding in the middle of winter. That's not a matter of "harshness", IMO. Rather, it's a way of seeing that a peak day in summer booked in advance is of more value than a last minute, midweek wedding in winter.

Hope that clarifies it

Super-advanced booking

Comments