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Commentary--Mega12
Froch
Registered Users Posts: 571 Major grins
A GREAT, GREAT, GREAT round of commentary on this Mega!!! Nicely done everyone. I love it when the commentary is thoughtful, as this was, and we also challenge each other. As happened on a previous round months ago, reading commentary has given me greater insight on what the intent of the shot was, and how others percieve it. It's flipped my perspective on more than a couple images. I know I grow immensely from it.
Let's try to keep it going from round to round.
Let's try to keep it going from round to round.
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I agree, Paul. What makes our work better is good commentary. On a levels of technique, art, emotion.... it's fun to be competitive and try to put your best stuff forward, but the real reward is taking away pieces of the collective forum and making better pictures with it. Not to mention, seeing others work with a more discerning eye!
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Well said. I'm sure many of us are of the same opinion. We're not concerned with winning; but rather want people to look, and tell what they see.
I'll have to remember to put my name when I write...I think I am always guest..lol
anywho...Paul...I wrote about the man in your photo, I was trying to get that image....I'm glad you did it, and your subject was exactly what I envisioned as soon as I saw the title!
Way to go!
It is vain to do with more what can be done with less. - William of Occam (c. 1288-1348)
Cheers,
Gretchen
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But thanks to you, Paul and Bill especially, for the fantastic commentary.
It's really hard to do a meaningful crit without being harsh, and you guys did that over and over. It was great to read your well-thought analysis of the photos. My new goal is to improve in my crit skills, and be like you guys.
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I took a photography class years ago, shooting film, and took some prints to the instructor (a nationally published professional wildlife photographer) asking how to make them better. He replied that they were good enough, not really much to do. At the time I was thrilled, but later realized that he had a chance to help me and passed on it to spare my feelings. Ran across the shots a couple of years ago and noticed how boring and crappy they were and was curious why he didn't show me that they were. Would have saved me a lot of time and wasted film/shots if he had taken 5 seconds to show me 2 or 3 little things that would have made ALL the difference in the shots. While I appreciate the compassion, I would rather have had the lesson.
I'm here to become a better photographer, to learn to create something from a concept, and really would welcome some weight behind the comments. I certainly think I should be able to handle it. We're able to give and receive virtually instant feedback, and it should be a huge learning tool.
If I'm way off base here, please someone say so and I'll crawl back under my rock, but I know there are a lot of very good photographers here, and I could learn a whole lot from them.
But I do appreciate the efforts Paul and others make to be so courteous and helpful in the forum.
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Part of my hesitancy to comment is that it seems my perspective is different from most & I don't want to throw somebody off (or tick them off) with a comment that may fly in the face of conventional photography wisdom - I think if I had formal training, I would feel more confident in offering comments.
Personally, I really prefer the constructive comments rather than just a 'great photo' comment - the critique on any photo helps me to understand what is seen or felt from the shot & makes it a learning experience rather than an 'okay, it's a great shot' (-or not) experience. Even a comment on why it's a great shot - like 'cool perspective' or 'great DOF' or 'sweet lighting' - helps me to understand what others see in the photos & why the photo is well liked or not.
I realize how much the comments have helped me, both when asking for feedback in the forum & when making comments on others' photos in the galleries. Several challenges ago, I tried to go through & comment on each photo in the gallery. I will say that making comments on other photos does sometimes help me realize specifics of what I do or do not like about a photo, but trying to give an honest but tactful critique is really hard & takes me a really long time. That said, making comments on the gallery photos is a goal I need to work on.
I very much appreciate the encouragement & leadership from you more experienced photogs here! Kudos!!
A photograph is an artistic expression of life, captured one moment at a time . . .
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Some people think they don't know enough about photography to write critiques. This isn't true. To write a useful critique, you need only three things:
- a reasonably decent monitor to view the photos
- at least one functioning eye
- a desire to help by writing honestly and constructively
The author suggests three broad areas that one could comment on: technique, composition, and whether or not you like the photo and why. I tend to agree with the author that even "beginners" are qualified to comment on how they respond to the photo and its story but I'd be interested in hearing whether folks think that is helpful to them or not. (Looking back at this article, I realize that I sometimes fall back into the "great shot" kind of comment and will try to be more specific - if I don't clam up altogether!)
If folks haven't read Travis Owney's article "Why Enter a Photography Contest" about the value of commentary and critique to a photographer, I highly recommend it. (It is in the DSS Challenge links under Other Stuff.) I had read it before but it is well worth rereading in my opinion.
Gretchen
P.S. Just saw your response, Lillian, and would include you in that first sentence re Ghinson.
P.P.S. Just went back to Travis Owney's article to copy this quote: "Critique others. I can think of very few ways to improve your own photography than to find areas of improvement in the work of others."
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Thanks all for sharing your knowledge and I will check out those links. GP
Also, I'm guessing probabilistically most people in the world of digital photography don't have real formal training so don't sweat that. There's so many avenues available to learn about it I can't imagine wanting to pay to go to college for it or anything. My 'formal training' was a single semester in high school that contained less information than is in your average camera's user manual.
I, on occasion, edit other people's creative writing endeavors. I warn them that they are not going to get pats on the back, unless justified.
They are going to get a lot of highlighted and marked up text back to try again. And that as they go on, they will get less and less mark-up, because they will begin to self-edit.
It's somewhat different in photography---there isn't always the possibility of a re-shoot.
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I think it's pretty universal that many of us (myself included) don't feel worthy of critiquing others' photos, but I can say that I really think it needs to be done. I will do my best to comment on the galleries from here on, but it will be based on the amount of time I have, unfortunately. Please don't hesitate to crit my shots, I can use all the help I can get.
John
www.photographyjones.com
I really loved it when there were two judges for each challenge. Altho some of the most helpful critique comes in the preliminary threads, I found that the comments from the judges in the gallery after the voting were great for two reasons: 1) Many judges commented on every entry, so you could see how their thoughts developed and how yours was seen by a single person in relation to the other entries. I found that helpful. 2) When the entire gallery was critqued, it seemed that the critiques had more depth and/or breadth. I miss that.
I also liked the old post-challenge comment thread where you could ask how an image was assembled or shot. So there was a bit more about the technique.
Lastly, it seemed that there was a time when the comments in the gallery were saved for after the voting. Am I fremembering that correctly?
Paul, thanks for stirring us into more action here. I haven't been a regular contributor lately, but will be able to jump back in this summer. You've thrown down a guantlet and I, for one, will pick it up and be more active in sharing my home-grown critique.
Very interesting Mega round.
Chris
When you come to a door... walk through it.
If it's locked... find an open window.
We're all on the same level here. Whether we've had formal training, or we're self-taught, I guarantee you that 100% of us have a thirst to continue to learn and grow as photographers. Commentary helps in that process. I've written to it a couple of times that it's selfish for me. I learn so much from it. From others, but mainly from my own efforts. It forces me to define what I like or may question, and reinforces that for me when I go out and shoot. But equally as important, it is an acknowledgement to the photographer that you appreciate their efforts. That someone LOOKED and spent time on the image. I agree it's hard...and it's TIIIIIIME CONSUMING
My personal way to comment is to remind myself that we all see the world differently. So what I may or may not find appealing, is my opinion only. I try never to say to another photographer, they should have done this or should have done that. I try to only say how the image effects 'me'. Whether the comp works, or areas of brightness are too distracting, or if I want more story....for 'me, personally'. And I LOVE it when someone adds their own commentary that opposes what I thought or answers my commentary on their photo. Greg answered my trouble 'getting over the fence' in his image of 'The Sea Hermits Shack', and I cannot imagine that fence NOT being there now. It was beautiful. I also have new 'vision' of other images after reading some other's commentary. This happens for me every round where there is meanful commentary.
I think the last thing to remember is that we are all nice people. There is not a thread that I've read ( I could be Dr.Suess...
And Lillian, thank you for adding comments to the gallery. You've been busy!
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Although I am not as active in commenting and helping with critiques and giving ideas as I did in the past, I would much rather reserve my comments of constructive critism to the threads started that are asking for it. It just does feel better to do it that way.
And although I am self taught (somewhat, I did take photography in college 1 semester, but had to drop out due to lack of funds), I feel that my learning has grown through the years and my experience as a high school art teacher has helped me in teaching others techniques. Especially in post editing and composition. I hopefully have given some insite to others when I make comments. Not sure if others feel that way about me helping them but it is what it is.
Edit: I am trying to say that I would find it easier to offer comments after the voting is over - not that I think comments should be positive at all times. Critiques can be very helpful. I don't know whether comments in the gallery influence the way people vote. And there is certainly a lot of commentary in the threads ahead of time - when people ask for input there - so it is not as if our minds are a "blank slate" when we first look at the gallery.
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Yes, we are here to learn and improve, because either beginners or pros, there is always something new to learn,
and personally I was always looking for comments and pertinent critique more than anything else.
I know I made some comments this round that were not 100% positive and I regretted.
Why? - because when the entry is already in the gallery, any critique is useless or, too late for the current challenge.
I always thought (too) that the critique should be done in the forum to those that are asking for, or in the gallery, after the voting is finished.
One thing that amazes me is that I've seen a lot of kudos, under some entries, but the votes went to some others
with much less good comments - where are all these votes coming from?
Should we not know how winners have been selected?
I think that people who vote for particular entries should reveal their identity, being able to express in words, the reason why they did it - it would be in my opinion, a gesture of courtesy for the rest of us, who put equal efforts in creating a great entry for the challenge.
I suggested in the beginning that the votes could be done only by comments and rated with the stars.
The stars are there already, but as Sean explained there is not automatic system on counting them.
Maybe now, that the Dgrin is doing great changes, it would be the time to ask for some system like this…
What do you people think?
... Or should we pay some extra fees to have a professional judge for our entries?
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I question allowing critique of entries in the contest gallery prior to judging.....to me, that's a delicate issue, because there is no doubt in my mind that the critiques can sway the outcome of the final vote of a peer-reviewed contest. However, critiques after the winners are chosen? So very important to the nurturing environment found here.....
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But the other side of that could be that if meaningful commentary was held until after the 72hour period, it may spark interest in returning to the gallery.
Personally, I like to comment early, thinking that it's stoking the fire for others to join in. My process for commenting happens throughout the two week period. I have a Word file on my desktop that I open and edit when an entry hits the gallery. Then when the submission time ends, I cut and paste them in. It only gets a bit time consuming is when a large group of us are stumped and submit over the last couple of days.
With regard to comments happening as a separate thread, I initially felt that comments should be in the gallery; because then the comments follow the image. I'm not sure that's the case though. *Sean, is there a time period when older challenge galleries are removed? Or do all the challenge galleries still remain somewhere in 'space'? Or are only the Top5 are moved to the winners galleries?
Then comes the question of whether that thread happens after the judging...and then does it interfer with others that would like pre-submission crit on images they are stuck on. I personally think the Thread may get chaotic.
If these threads are started during the submission and judging period, then I'm not sure I see a difference between Thread or Gallery.
So what did we decide...
**I'm not sure that I see the difference between commenting in the thread or in the gallery? Many have said they feel more comfortable in the threads, because people are asking for views. Honestly, the moment we decided to join this community and submit to a contest, we've decided that we would like to hear what people have to say about our work. And I read the threads, and each of us, to a person...is kind and supportive in commentary that happens in the thread..... that should move right over to the gallery...
p
If we decide to take this approach, I hope that there will be a group effort to make sure that every entry has at least one comment. Some of us receive a lot of comments in our "what do you think about this idea?" threads, so we may not have as many comments on our gallery entries. (This may account for some of the discrepancy that Tatiana noted earlier between # of positive gallery comments and number of votes.) I know that I am less likely to comment on the gallery if I have given earlier feedback. In general, more of my energy has gone to commenting in these threads because I am also seeking help with the process of self-editing and I want to return the favor.
Perhaps one could incorporate this kind of question in the gallery comments?
Paul, that's a great idea for working on comments!
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