OCF help...please

JulieLawsonPhotography

Ok, the more photos I see of very well executed OCF...the more I NEED to get better at it. I have 1 SB900. I use a wireless trigger.

I don't know what info you need, but here is a sample of what I did tonight.

D700
F/8
1/200
ISO 320

It says no flash, but I did fire my flash

It lifted the slight shadow on her face...but how do I make the sky look a little darker and still expose her face.

jeffreaux2

JulieLawsonPhotography wrote: »

It lifted the slight shadow on her face...but how do I make the sky look a little darker and still expose her face.

You can start by lowering the ISO.

Are you using manual flash or some sort of ETTL auto flash?

Thats a Canon term (ETTL) and I am unfamiliar with Nikon's moniker.

I shoot Canon and use ETTL or auto flash most all of the time. While the base power of the flash pulse is set automatically via through the lens metering, I still retain total control of the flash power via FEC (another Canon term for "flash exposure compensation). There is also a high speed synch setting that can be used to up the shutter speed faster than the native synch speed. A faster shutter speed would also darken the sky....but.....I would drop the ISO to 100 before upping the shutter speed for that particular shot.

Just remember that the flash should light the subject, so the shutter speed will have very little effect on your subject. Raising or lowering the shutter speed will determine the exposure for the background.

JulieLawsonPhotography

jeffreaux2 wrote: »

You can start by lowering the ISO.

Are you using manual flash or some sort of ETTL auto flash?

Thats a Canon term (ETTL) and I am unfamiliar with Nikon's moniker.

I shoot Canon and use ETTL or auto flash most all of the time. While the base power of the flash pulse is set automatically via through the lens metering, I still retain total control of the flash power via FEC (another Canon term for "flash exposure compensation). There is also a high speed synch setting that can be used to up the shutter speed faster than the native synch speed. A faster shutter speed would also darken the sky....but.....I would drop the ISO to 100 before upping the shutter speed for that particular shot.

Just remember that the flash should light the subject, so the shutter speed will have very little effect on your subject. Raising or lowering the shutter speed will determine the exposure for the background.

Oh how I wish you lived closer. lol With the set up that I have, I shoot manual and if I go over 250 on my shutter speed...I get a blackish line in my images. Now that I type that, I question if that's true. ugh...I'll have to try again tomorrow to test what I've said. lol But that is the way it works when I use my studio lights.

pathfinder

Julie, you need to shoot in Manual mode for your camera, with High Speed Synch enabled. THose are the terms for Canon, and I think Nikon uses slightly different terms.

To darken your background you have to under expose the background by your choice of aperture, shutter speed and ISO. Meter the background, and choose an exposure about 1/2 to 1 stop down from that.
That is why you need to use High Speed Sych, so you can use a shutter speed much shorter than 1/250th. Then your flash in iTTL will illuminate your subject correctly.

I think a snoot to enable your off camera flash to be limited to your subjects face will help also, so that you do no light up the whole are around here.

Art Scott

Out in the wild...you really should shoot as low and iso as possible and expose for the sky then use the flash simply as fill flash...as to getting better......I found over 30 yrs ago that I needed models at the most inopportune times.....so I bought my self a wig head...styrofoam wig head....paid like $15 including a wig (Sally Beauty Supply has natural looking heads with hair, no wig for around $65)......she works for free and never complains and when I need to I can stuff a light stand up her........neck to give her the working height I need.........

My first instinct for shooting this shot would have been to toss my SB900 on to my mono-pod attached to camera with my i-TTL cord and shot away starting at ISO 100/ around f5.6-8 and a shutter of 250 (tops shutter for my D300) and I have never needed to venture into the arena of High speed sync ....I know it is possible .....I still shoot just like I do with a film camera, so there was never a need to do high speed sync......if I had any idea I needed that I pulled out the Leaf Shutter Camera and could sync at any speed................

Good Luck

JulieLawsonPhotography

Here are two that I tried this evening. Any input to help me get better?

Above Image:
ISO 200
1/200
f/5
Spot metering

ISO- 200
1/125
f/5.6

jeffreaux2

JulieLawsonPhotography wrote: »

Here are two that I tried this evening. Any input to help me get better?

Above Image:
ISO 200
1/200
f/5
Spot metering

ISO- 200
1/125
f/5.6

Notice the brighter sky with the slower shutter speed. Of course you killed some of the effect by stopping the aperture down more....but...stilll....do you see?


Be sure and read this entire thread...and the links.....

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=198559

JulieLawsonPhotography

jeffreaux2 wrote: »

Notice the brighter sky with the slower shutter speed. Of course you killed some of the effect by stopping the aperture down more....but...stilll....do you see?


Be sure and read this entire thread...and the links.....

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=198559

I see the difference. I'll read it all. thank you

pathfinder

The difference between your lighting on your subject and background is too extreme - you need to lighten your background by using a longer shutter speed ( or a faster ISO ) and keep the flash exposure unchanged. From an artistic standpoint, I think the subject is just maybe 1/3 stop too bright ( you can adjust FEC for this is you wish ), and the flash color temp could be gelled just a touch warmer, but those are just minor adjustments to artistic taste.

An umbrella for your flash will soften it some, but your flash will have to be much closer to your subject than in these images. But an umbrella, closer, is a much softer, rounder light source than just a speedlite.

JulieLawsonPhotography

pathfinder wrote: »

The difference between your lighting on your subject and background is too extreme - you need to lighten your background by using a longer shutter speed ( or a faster ISO ) and keep the flash exposure unchanged. From an artistic standpoint, I think the subject is just maybe 1/3 stop too bright ( you can adjust FEC for this is you wish ), and the flash color temp could be gelled just a touch warmer, but those are just minor adjustments to artistic taste.

An umbrella for your flash will soften it some, but your flash will have to be much closer to your subject than in these images. But an umbrella, closer, is a much softer, rounder light source than just a speedlite.

Jim, are you still in the same area as the last time we talked? If so, would you be available to meet up with me? I hate to ask.....but I would love to learn in real time (by that I mean not in threads. lol ). I've read the post that Jeff sent me to, but it seems that the majority are canon folks, which I know you are too....

jeffreaux2

JulieLawsonPhotography wrote: »

Jim, are you still in the same area as the last time we talked? If so, would you be available to meet up with me? I hate to ask.....but I would love to learn in real time (by that I mean not in threads. lol ). I've read the post that Jeff sent me to, but it seems that the majority are canon folks, which I know you are too....

Dont be discouraged by early results. Your camera...and flash are capable of anything a Canon can do. I think you even have a built in commander for the flash.

It is very unfortunate that Im out of the loop on Nikons terminology though.

Zoomer is your guy.

zoomer

Hi I just noticed this.
I feel your pain Julie, I have fought with this same issue. My main problem is that I don't have enough flash power for shooting mid day when I try this.

...however if you are shooting early am or late evening when the ambient is manageable....

For me it is as they described. I always use high speed sync. because I always shoot wide open or 1 stop down.

I shoot these in A and dial down the exposure compensation....you can do the same thing shooting manual by darkening the exposure a bit.

Then with the flash you can use ttl....when using commander mode you can dial in the ttl and the amount of flash power you want.

If you crank up the flash power in commander mode it will automatically darken the background (reduce the ambient) if you are in A mode so as to not blow out your subject...then just experiment with the flash power...you will see as you increase and or reduce the flash power your background will lighten and darken so as to not blow out your subject....then I fine tune using the exposure compensation dial. I typically set the iso at 800 for these early am late evening shots.
Anyway that is how I do it....a process arrived at through a LOT of trial and error.

It is sort of like working with a recipe in the kitchen, you need to adjust the ingredients to taste per what you are shooting at the time.

Of course you can do all this in manual also if you prefer to dial in your own settings....and over time would probably be more consistent as you become more comfortable with settings.

pathfinder

JulieLawsonPhotography wrote: »

Jim, are you still in the same area as the last time we talked? If so, would you be available to meet up with me? I hate to ask.....but I would love to learn in real time (by that I mean not in threads. lol ). I've read the post that Jeff sent me to, but it seems that the majority are canon folks, which I know you are too....

Let me know when we can get together and I will be happy to try to help you, Julie. I speak Canon speak, but Nikon flash will do anything Canon's will - Just ask Joe McNally

Zoomer's comment about lack of flash power to over drive ambient light is not exactly the difficulty you are having I think. Overdriving sunlight can be difficult unless your flash is close enough to the subject. If your flash is less than 3 or 4 feet to your subject, you should have plenty of light, but you may not be able to use large apertures. Many folks overdriving sunlight gang 3 - 6 or more flash guns together - Syl Arena has used as many as 16 ganged together, but most folks do not get that extreme

divamum

Julie, I trust you're reading www.strobist.com as well? Yes, he favours manual over iTTL (I believe that's Nikon's automatic flash system), but he IS a Nikon guy and a lot of the info there is likely very pertinent. He's all about balancing flash and ambient, so reading his lighting 101 will be very helpful even if you choose to handle your shots using different metering etc. It really helped me start to understand how balancing ambient+flash works.

angevin1

Hi Julie!

"...but how do I make the sky look a little darker and still expose her face."

TO review a few recommendations in above posts. And in answer to this question: TONS of light! It's hard to tell, but if that is a normal/overcast condition, it can still be plenty light. For instance if you ignore your model and just meter the sky, you might have well;
F/8
1/200 (to 1/1000th)
ISO 320

then as Zoomer said, you'd need to use TTL/high speed sync, and as Pathfinder mentioned, you'd need to make certain that single flash is within 2-3ft. of the model, and perhaps even use two or three flashes ganged together.

As far as the "little" model goes, you simply metered too dark. Metering for the BG and adding flash is the way to go there....UNLESS of course you'd like that darker BG effect which means stopping down, as you did.

If I can be so bold as to tell how I figured this WHOLE thing out ( LikeSure!).
I went outside in the middle of the day and used my Camera to first make the resultant exposure completely black. Then slowly worked backwards from there until I had a moderately decent daylight exposure, then I added a model and a-flash..2-flashes, 3 flashes and finally three flashes aimed right at the model without any diffuser, two feet away, no prob, further away I began to lose the models exposure( Ie: She became hugely underexposed, very quickly. I think I was at 1/1250th, f4, ISO200. My overall take from the whole experience, avoid it if possible, or plan on bringing a/c powered light sources, such as AB1600's, etc.

there is one quick way to overcome this, and in some situations it is required, and that is a reflector. Of course the model could become permanently blind from the power of the sun you are reflecting, but, proper-exposure can be accomplished that way.

pathfinder

Great post, Tom.

I think the limitations of speedlite power ( and model comfort also ) are why much of these kinds of shots are done shortly before sunset, or shortly after sunset, when it is so much easier to overdrive the light from the sky.

angevin1

pathfinder wrote: »

Great post, Tom.

I think the limitations of speedlite power ( and model comfort also ) are why much of these kinds of shots are done shortly before sunset, or shortly after sunset, when it is so much easier to overdrive the light from the sky.

Right! I had done Shoots in those very settings you mention long before I realized why. I thought I just liked the light, and I knew the harshness would be diffused if not gone, but I did that test with my flashguns not too many Months ago, and got a whole new perspective on it all. Julie is so very close, esp. in her 'little' models photos, just a tweak and she'll be all over it!

JulieLawsonPhotography

angevin1 wrote: »

Right! I had done Shoots in those very settings you mention long before I realized why. I thought I just liked the light, and I knew the harshness would be diffused if not gone, but I did that test with my flashguns not too many Months ago, and got a whole new perspective on it all. Julie is so very close, esp. in her 'little' models photos, just a tweak and she'll be all over it!

Thank you, as soon as the light bulb comes on...I think I will run with it. Right now I'm throwing about a 40w bulb right now.

Jim- I am available on Tuesday, if you are. We could meet at the college if you'd like. I'll bring my gear. If you can, send me a msg to my email to confirm.

I'm going to include some SOOC from my attempts tonight.

pathfinder

Start by metering ambient exposure without flash - get that exposure in your camera on Manual Mode.

Then add your flash for your foreground subject - either manual flash with a Guide number calculation, or iTTL with adjustments via Flash Exposure compensation. Once you have these settings dialed in, you can then add a second flash if needed to adjust your lighting rartios.

angevin1

pathfinder wrote: »

Start by metering ambient exposure without flash - get that exposure in your camera on Manual Mode.

Then add your flash for your foreground subject - either manual flash with a Guide number calculation, or iTTL with adjustments via Flash Exposure compensation. Once you have these settings dialed in, you can then add a second flash if needed to adjust your lighting rartios.

That is it! perfectly simplified!

Mitchell

Julie I have the same gear as you do and have also struggled with this until recently.

The key here, as others have said is to first meter for your background exposure. Shut off your flash and put your camera in manual mode. Dial your ISO to 200 and set your shutterspeed to 250. Dial down your aperture until you underexpose your background to your liking. I don't like it too dark since it tends to look a bit unnatural.

Now turn on your flash. Are you using the pop up as a commander or do you use and SU-800? Leave the flash in ttl and fire away. You can adjust the flash power as needed on your D700 camera menu if you use the pop up flash or on the back of the SU-800. This is one of the reasons I like my SU-800. Very easy to change flash power without entering menus. It also fires with greater range than my pop up flash.

Hope this helps!

Here's one from a session last week.

pathfinder

Perfect, Mitchell.

Glad to hear that it is really the same in Nikon land as in the land of white lenses,