I need advice for the beginner horse show photographer.

emilybeth · August 3, 2011

Hello,
I have just recently decided that I would like to pursue photography professionally, and yes I realize that doesn't happen over night! But I do have a few questions about some of the business and legal aspects. As of right now, photography is just a hobby, so I have never had to consider any of these issues I'm about to present. I'm hoping that some of you more experienced photographers can give me some insight. Thanks in advance!

Ok first, I want to photograph horse shows. But I don't know exactly where to begin. I have several contacts of people who's facilities/shows I might be able to shoot. However I don't know exactly how to present it to them. What kind of deal am I supposed to make with either the show director or facility owner? I know that I want to shoot the photos and upload them so that competitors can log on and buy the pictures they want but what does the facility owner get out of the deal? Should I expect to charge them a fee for taking photos? Are they supposed to get a cut of sales? I'm clueless about this part and would greatly appreciate some insight.

Also, I have been considering pricing for competition photos. I don't feel like I can charge the same as another pro photographer in that I'm new, but I also don't want to undersell myself. Thoughts?

Thanks!

MT Stringer · August 3, 2011

Before you get a commitment from an event, make sure you have the equipment necessary to produce great photos. I don't have any experience at shooting horse shows, so I can only ask - are they indoors or out...or both. Is flash allowed? Preferably off camera set up high so the horses don't spook. If no flash is allowed for indoor shows, then you will really need to concentrate on fast lenses and a camera that produces good images at high ISO's. You want to capture images that the spectators with their p&s cameras (or cell phones) can't get.

Since you have some contacts, you could always send an email and state simply "Do you have an event photographer for your upcoming event? If not, I would be interested in covering it for you."
I include links to my website and to MaxPreps so they can take a look at the kind of work I have been doing.

Hope you ifnd this info helpful.
Mike

emilybeth · August 3, 2011

MT Stringer wrote: »

Before you get a commitment from an event, make sure you have the equipment necessary to produce great photos. I don't have any experience at shooting horse shows, so I can only ask - are they indoors or out...or both. Is flash allowed? Preferably off camera set up high so the horses don't spook. If no flash is allowed for indoor shows, then you will really need to concentrate on fast lenses and a camera that produces good images at high ISO's. You want to capture images that the spectators with their p&s cameras (or cell phones) can't get.

Since you have some contacts, you could always send an email and state simply "Do you have an event photographer for your upcoming event? If not, I would be interested in covering it for you."
I include links to my website and to MaxPreps so they can take a look at the kind of work I have been doing.

Hope you ifnd this info helpful.
Mike

I am working on making sure I have all the right equipment right now. I'm debating between the Canon 7d and Nikon D7000. Any thoughts?

Shows are mostly outdoors but also found indoors. As of right now, I'll be doing outdoor shows. Flash is generally allowed but that's definitely something I'll check to make for certain.

What kind of contract do you have for the sporting events you shoot? Do you have a contract with the facility owner etc.? Or do you go and shoot, upload and sell to the competitors?

MT Stringer · August 3, 2011

Emily, I shoot high school sports of all sorts. Images are posted on LSCSN.COM and MaxPreps.Com. But for youth tournaments, I put them on my Smugmug site. In my area, the team hosting the tournament requires 15% of sales. They usually agree that I will send payment about 30 days after the tournament. That way the parents that didn't buy on site, have time to purchase online. This also includes any custom posters and tournament DVD's.

The softball league I just finished shooting for asked if we wanted to cover a couple of 30 team tournaments in late October. Apparently they liked our work and got a lot of kudos. So, we will be back. I had 6 fellow shooters helping cover all of the games...and about half of them shoot better than I do. :-(

Good luck. If you can, start with the outdoor shows. That will help you get used to the routine. Going indoors is going to require high ISO capability which the 7D will handle. In 2 weeks, I will be shooting an indoor preseason high school volleyball tournament with a 100 f/2 and the 7D or MK3.

I use a 7D and a 1D MK III. Lenses include a 17-40, 24-70, 70-200, and a 300 f/2.8. Yeah, my pockets are empty! :-)

johng · August 4, 2011

Emily,
Lots of people have cameras. Lots of people take good pictures. Extremely few people make decent money shooting sports. For a lot of people, it ends up equating to minimum wage salary. So, before you start putting money into your new profession you need to step back. How much are you wanting to make from the effort? $2k a year? 10k? 20k? 40k?

Are you wanting to make it all from just horse shows? or are you wanting to do other types of photography?

Next, you mention you're considering a 7d or d7000. What dslr experience do you already have? Is this your first dslr? What sports shooting experience do you already have?

Before you start talking contracts and other business activities you actually have to already be producing consistent, saleable shots. 5 years ago it was much easier. Now, lots of people have DSLRs and more frequently those people have decent lenses. And they're giving away photos for free. So your shots need to be WOW for people to even consider buying them. Ask around and you'll find people here and at other sites who were told "you take great pictures" and then they started to try and make money shooting sports. Funny how 'customers' say you take great photos until it's time for them to pay money to get them.

I'm not trying to discourage you. But if your intent is to make a living shooting sports you need to think again. If you want to make $4-5k a year working for the equivalent of $6 an hour that's doable. Anything in-between is a big fat MAYBE.

Snowgirl · August 4, 2011

Sadly, Emily, Johng is right. Most of the people I know that have been involved in horse show photography have veered away from it except for a few select events. There is no money to be made with the shoot - upload - hope to sell - model. It won't happen. period.

I do a pre-paid shoot model where the competitors hire me, in advance, for a set fee to cover their rides or shoot their portraits on-site while they, and their horses, are all spiffed up for the show ring. That's doable. But to spend 12+ hours a day for a whole week-end shooting thousands of images to sell 1/2 a dozen 5x7s is NOT worth it. And, as someone above said, you need some serious glass to make this work indoors.

If shooting shows is a sideline to other types of photography that will pay your bills, keep you in equipment and replacements and repairs, put a vehicle under you, and feed and house you - then maybe.

Get John Harrington's book "Best Business Practices for Photographers" and study it closely. It's one of the best I've seen for figuring out a business model that will work for you and helping you to establish proper rates from the get-go.

But as Johng said above, first you need to have and know your gear and develop a body of work that you can show to potential clients.

Good luck with all of this. Go slow - as an old song says "fools rush in where angels fear to tread." I'm not suggesting you're a fool, by the way, just cautioning you to go carefully.

fotoluv1220 · August 4, 2011

Hi Emily,

I have experince in shooting horses and canine agility trials. Any place that asks for a cut, stay away from. These events can't guarantee business, so anything that you provide would be a service. It is a great place to hone your skills, but do it on your terms and your own schedule to grow your skills and portfolio. While it used to be lucrative, horse show photography business isn't a great way to make money.

First, while horse show photography is a really hard area to make it in, horse photography can be quite lucrative.

With your contacts, you have a great foundation to start working on building your business and photography skills. One, you can start honing your craft very easily. Go shoot shows to hone your photography skills. If you can shoot a show with great looking images, especially under a cover, you have a good start. Always carry a card with you and be ready to get email addresses if you get anyone asking to see your pics. (If there is a photographer at the event, never solicit business. That's just professional courtesy.)
It's a great way to build business.

Also, ask friends if you can photograph their horses. With the shows and these photo sessions with individual horses, you don't need to charge to take the images since you are practicing. But, I would post the best images online and charge for those images. While you are building your portfolio, go online and check out sites like 500px.com to challenge your world view of photography. They have a great collection of photographers and it will help you start to look at photography and what can be done differently. Also, take seminars, take a class or research online what makes makes for great editing. That will also help you create unique and professional images.

Once you get a portfolio together that you are happy with, put together a slideshow presentation together of it. You can send an email friendly version to potential customers and post it on YouTube.

Taking time to put together packages that people prepay for (includes sitting fee) which can be redeemed with coupons helps you make sure that each job you end up doing will pay for itself. As you get comfortable with the process, you can add premium products to your packages which will allow you to add value and margin to the jobs. Also spend as much time as you can researching on marketing yourself.

Then you ask you horse contacts to spread the word.

If you are interested in making this your living, put yourself in the position to meet as many horse people as possible. Hand your card out as you meet people. And remember not to undervalue yourself with how you price your images and photo sessions.

I know this is a lot of info and it takes time to do all this, but if you love photographing horses, it will definitely be worth the energy.

Jill
http://jillsfotoluv.com

emilybeth · August 4, 2011

I really do appreciate the words of caution. I do not plan to strictly do horse shows, I also want to do portraits. At this point I'll see them more as side work on the weekend or just for fun. My plan was to get into contact with some facility owners and just see if they were willing for me to come and shoot on the day of their show. It is a chance for me to build up my portfolio and make a little pocket change. My thoughts are this...Parents spend money on their kids. And most of the shows that I'll be going to starting out will mostly have child competitors. However, I'm not expecting them to buy every shot I take! I'm also not expecting to jump into this and immediately have a full fledged salary. Yes, I would like to make this my main job but I fully intend to do other types of photography as well. I plan to do portraits as my main focus and horse shows on the side--and that's mainly for my mental health! I love to photograph horses in action.

I guess I just wanted to make sure I wasn't jumping into a huge mess by trying to shoot horse shows. Legally I mean. Right now, I would like the chance to go to some open shows to practice and be able to show future clients what I can do with horse show photography.

This is going to be my first dslr. But don't worry, I don't plan to go to an event the day after I get it! I fully intend to spend a couple weeks learning it and practicing with it. The only experience I have with shooting sports is going as a spectator and shooting whatever looked interesting to me. I know, I know, I have lots to learn!

emilybeth · August 4, 2011

fotoluv1220 wrote: »

Hi Emily,

I have experince in shooting horses and canine agility trials. Any place that asks for a cut, stay away from. These events can't guarantee business, so anything that you provide would be a service. It is a great place to hone your skills, but do it on your terms and your own schedule to grow your skills and portfolio. While it used to be lucrative, horse show photography business isn't a great way to make money.

First, while horse show photography is a really hard area to make it in, horse photography can be quite lucrative.

With your contacts, you have a great foundation to start working on building your business and photography skills. One, you can start honing your craft very easily. Go shoot shows to hone your photography skills. If you can shoot a show with great looking images, especially under a cover, you have a good start. Always carry a card with you and be ready to get email addresses if you get anyone asking to see your pics. (If there is a photographer at the event, never solicit business. That's just professional courtesy.)
It's a great way to build business.

Also, ask friends if you can photograph their horses. With the shows and these photo sessions with individual horses, you don't need to charge to take the images since you are practicing. But, I would post the best images online and charge for those images. While you are building your portfolio, go online and check out sites like 500px.com to challenge your world view of photography. They have a great collection of photographers and it will help you start to look at photography and what can be done differently. Also, take seminars, take a class or research online what makes makes for great editing. That will also help you create unique and professional images.

Once you get a portfolio together that you are happy with, put together a slideshow presentation together of it. You can send an email friendly version to potential customers and post it on YouTube.

Taking time to put together packages that people prepay for (includes sitting fee) which can be redeemed with coupons helps you make sure that each job you end up doing will pay for itself. As you get comfortable with the process, you can add premium products to your packages which will allow you to add value and margin to the jobs. Also spend as much time as you can researching on marketing yourself.

Then you ask you horse contacts to spread the word.

If you are interested in making this your living, put yourself in the position to meet as many horse people as possible. Hand your card out as you meet people. And remember not to undervalue yourself with how you price your images and photo sessions.

I know this is a lot of info and it takes time to do all this, but if you love photographing horses, it will definitely be worth the energy.

Jill
http://jillsfotoluv.com

Thank you Jill! That's great info. You have beautiful pictures. I'm in love with the cremello dressage horse in your gallery!

I am fortunate to know a lot of people with horses as well as being able to shoot and practice on my own. I've also been fortunate to meet people over the years that I believe would help me when/if they can. One of my contacts is a past riding instructor and I strongly believe she'll let me shoot an event for her and then spread the word if she likes what she sees. However, I haven't contacted anyone yet, as I don't have the necessary equipment and certainly haven't practiced with it.

I have been researching how to set prices but as of right now I'm still baffled. If I go to a show and the only money I'm making is off the photo sales (given I don't charge a fee for being there),how do I set prices for individual pics.? I don't want to overprice them and discourage people from buying multiple shots but I can't underprice them have it not be worth it to spend all that time shooting. There's a horse show photographer who charges $30 for a 4x6 of his show shots. At this point, I know I can't charge that much because I'm just starting out and he is pretty well known not to mention good. So where's the happy medium?

fotoluv1220 · August 4, 2011

Shows are actually a tremendous amount of work for very little money. It's hard to describe to unless you've been through it. Go ahead and get practice first before committing to a whole event.

If I was to shoot a show again, I would actually see what the event chairs would think of you taking a deposit ($10) to shoot for people interested in actually purchasing images. That way, I would be able to put my energy and focus towards people serious on buying images and weed out the ones who aren't. And you will be able to get more images that you want.

Make sure you solidify the agreement with a contract, including full permission to take pictures of anyone participating in the event along with their horses. Also check to see if their contract for the competitors includes a statement about giving permission about having their images taken along with their horses. Several photographers I know along with myself have run into some really weird stuff about posting images of competitors and their animals. I usually will remove the images from online, but it will help protect you from law suits.

When shooting a whole show, it takes a lot of time to upload the images, to do quick edits (Lightroom is perfect for this!) and it kills your memory, even if you keep it on a separate hard drive. And people pretty much expect the images to be posted that night. I have noticed my sales are much lower if there aren't posted immediately, even when I gave fair warning it would be 3 days for the images to be posted.

This will help you enjoy the overall experience and not burn out on photography out of the gate and produce consistently good work. I may be giving you more info than you are asking for, but it should help you put together a business plan that will help you secede if you go this direction. Even if you don't have a lot of sales, you will be able to know you are leaving the event with some great images that you can use for a portfolio, stock or something else.

JSPhotography · August 4, 2011

I have been shooting horse shows for a few years, switched from motosports. I make my best money at small single ring shows and I charge a $10 "registration" fee. I have gotten to know my customers and they have learned quickly if they don't sign up there will not be any pics. I also do not process my shots until they are ordered. They have learned to trust me that they will like the final product. I allways make sure they are very satisfied. In this way I can get them up quick and reduce my workload. A lot of people just pay the $10 so their kid can look at them on my website, fine by me. If you shoot bigger events you have to add multiple photogs and somebody working a sign up table. I can do the single ring by myself. I have offloaded all the bigger events to other photogs. My customers are not hurting for money but they are not going to pay $30 for a 4x6. I'm at like $6-$7 for a 4x6, $10 for 5x7 and $15 for 8x10. This works well for me. I have a regular job and do this on the side. My goal was to at least pay for some equipment and with that I have done very well. I walk away from events with $150 to $200 in my pocket and then sell about the same in pics. Most of my sales average 6 pics. Indoor is a tough shoot, I use a 7D and 70-200 2.8 in a very well lit arena. Good luck with indoors, outdoors is easy. I don't pay the organizer/promotor anything they are glad to have me. I did have it setup at one point to have them collect registration money and I would give them a cut but they didn't push for sign ups so it did not work out.

JSPhotography · August 4, 2011

Oh, I have also had a number of customers that have been at multiple events and I provided them a cd for $75 to $100 depending on how many shots I had.

Sam · August 4, 2011

Please don't take this the wrong way, but let's not put the horse in front of the cart. Don't even think about prices at this point.

If you can produce professional images a few weeks after you buy your first DLSR you will bet the most talented fastest learner I have ever encountered!

That isn't to say you can't end up producing fantastic wonderful images, but it will take a little longer to get there.

Also if your perusing this as a way to earn money, stop now. If you have a desire and passion to learn photography and think eventually you would like to explore turning your passion into a small business go for it.

Sam

Glort · August 6, 2011

Sam wrote: »

Please don't take this the wrong way, but let's not put the horse in front of the cart. Don't even think about prices at this point.

If you can produce professional images a few weeks after you buy your first DLSR you will bet the most talented fastest learner I have ever encountered!

That isn't to say you can't end up producing fantastic wonderful images, but it will take a little longer to get there.

Also if your perusing this as a way to earn money, stop now. If you have a desire and passion to learn photography and think eventually you would like to explore turning your passion into a small business go for it.

Sam

For once, I agree completely with Sam.

From my own input and with no offence intended, you really are so unawares of what you are getting in to you don't realise how unrealistic your thinking is at this point.
In saying that, i don't know what the soloution is other than to learn by trial of fire. Whatever your thinking is now, be prepared for it to have some radical re-evaluations.

People find it tough to make money, any money out of this and that's going in full on. To do it effectively half hearted is going to increase the difficulty and diminish the returns by a huge margin. There is so much involved in this. Right now you thinking camera's and permissions and pricing but you haven't even appeared to take into account the marketing of your pics which is a crutial and involved subjevt all on it's own.

The one thing I would say t you now is if you can't charge a decent price straight off because you think your just starting out or are not good enough or whatever, wait until you are confident enough. undercutting other shooters for whatever reason is bad for the whole industry and only makes things difficult for everyone, especialy yourself later down the line if you do want to get more serious with it.

Good luck !

orljustin · August 6, 2011

Sam wrote: »

Please don't take this the wrong way, but let's not put the horse in front of the cart. Don't even think about prices at this point.

If you can produce professional images a few weeks after you buy your first DLSR you will bet the most talented fastest learner I have ever encountered!

That isn't to say you can't end up producing fantastic wonderful images, but it will take a little longer to get there.

Also if your perusing this as a way to earn money, stop now. If you have a desire and passion to learn photography and think eventually you would like to explore turning your passion into a small business go for it.

Sam

Great post.

catspaw · August 6, 2011

most everyone has said what I'd say. Also, been there, done that (re shooting horse shows). If I were you, I'd check out the forums at http://www.equinephotographers.org/ -- and you'll see people who DO make good money (oddly enough, most outside the US, like in Australia) and many-many-many who have left doing shows unless huge nationals or paid by clients to shoot JUST them. Portrait work, if anything, is where the money is at if you want to shoot horses -- but there's considerable skill and TIMING involved that takes both knowledge AND practice. I'd definitely cruise around in the forum I listed (hey, I love dgrin, but a forum of people who shoot nearly only horses is invaluable). And hopefully you'll take us all a bit seriously and not brush us off as naysayers. Alas, we're just being truthful.

Glort · August 7, 2011

catspaw wrote: »

and you'll see people who DO make good money (oddly enough, most outside the US, like in Australia)

I wasn't aware of that forum but have bookmarked it to refer back to it later. Thank you for linking to it, I'm sure it will be very helpful.

I'm in Oz and thought I knew most of the people doing horse work at least on teh east coast.
you mention people makeing good money here, do any names come to mind?

For me the frustration has always been how small things are here compared to the US. I have covered some of the biggest events here and theearnings to me at least are always kind of marginal and I have the biggest setup and from what i know do a lot better than most shooters I know or have spoken to in this area.

I too atm am looking to other areas than horse work although that has been my main staple for the last 2.5 years.
The events are getting smaller at a very rapid rate with a variety of reasons being cited from the economy to less interest being generated from certain TV programs no longer being shown.
I have passed a number of events this year due to the diminishing numbers which make it pretty unviable to travel 60-90 min and set up for an event with only 30 competitors where as last year the same events I did cover had 70 + riders and the year before was 120+.

This sort of thing is universal here and would be affecting every other horse shooter as well. There is only so much you are going to sell per rider and I'm certain no one else is doing anything remarkably greater than I am.
I looked a doing a big national event later this year but looking at the entry list hich was published a while back, I didn't even bother applying. I'd have to sell to 100% of the riders at 4 times my normal sales rate to come near justifying just the weeks coverage let alone travel and I don't even have to pay for my fuel.

For me being in it as a profession and the only attraction being the money, there are other potential events and types of work I can do with better returns, less investment in equipment, ( an event trailer is a substiantial bit of gear not to mention what's in the thing) and take far less time and physical effort for setup and execution.
I haven't shot a horse event in months now but I have picked up quite a variety of other work which i can apply the same setups, equipment and technologys to and it has really opened my eyes to how inefficent the horse shows are.
I do like them more so for the people I meet, watching the kids grow up and and getting out to the country environment but they are sadly getting beyond justification now.

The real frustrating part is that i am better set up with equipment that allows us to service the clients better than ever as well as taking better pics ( even by the many clients comments). We offer a range of products that the clients like and have spent endless time talking to the clients as to what they want so we can refine what we do to be as attractive to them as possible. Where we used to always have stuffups with computers and take too long getting pics on vstations etc, now we just glide through it but the smaller numbers mean that even though our average sales are at an all time high, there are simply so many less people to sell to .
I would and could take this a lot further still with the technology and equipment and would love to do it but without the return on investment, there is just no point.

I'd be very interested to know who the people are that are doing well to see what I could learn from them and compare what they are getting out of these events.

Sorry for the long rant but it helps to get the frustrations as well as the passion I still have for this out in the open and have a reality check that hopefully others may get something from as well!

I need advice for the beginner horse show photographer.

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