Gymnastics for under 2k

kcjb

Here is the game.

You have 2k to spend on a DSLR and lens. The only thing you care about is getting the best gymnastics shots you can. You do not have floor access, so you can expect 30 yards of range in some cases.

You care more about getting good shots than getting all of the shots. In other words, you may spend more later on another lens, but you don't want to have to replace the range in the lens you get now.

What do you do? What do you do?!

(Thanks! :lust)

MileHighAko

When I was in your same boat I had half your budget, and ended up shooting with a Nikon D5000 and a rented lens from LensRentals.com. I sold enough prints to other parents to largely offset the cost of the lens rentals. Got some great shots.

Now I shoot gymnastics with a Nikon D7000 and a 70-200mm f/2.8. Shooting gymnastics can be pretty rough because of the poor conditions - no flash, low lights, dust in the air, etc. After a bit of practice, however, I've gotten pretty good at it. Since there is no floor access allowed in the youth USAG meets, having a crop sensor and a telephoto lens makes all the difference. You can see some of my shots here: http://www.adamcartwright.com/Sports

Check out these threads in the Sports forum:

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=130105

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=187764

Lots of great advise and help there. Good luck.

Matthew Saville

I'd get a USED, Canon 7D or Nikon D300s, and a Sigma 50-150 2.8 or 70-200 2.8. Personally I shoot more in close quarters than I shoot gymnastics, so I'd get the Sigma 50-150... 30 yards is nothing for 150mm on a crop sensor though, and I like the weight savings I get with the 50-150...

=Matt=

kcjb

MileHighAko:

Great pictures and links, thanks!

It looks like I can get a practically new D7000 for $950 and pair it with a non-VR 50-150 or 70-200 2.8 within my budget. Do you shoot with or without VR? How critical have you found it to be?

Mathew:

Thanks for the feedback.

The reviews I'm reading suggest that the D7000 compares favorably to the D300s in low light. What would compel you to pursue the D300s over the D7000?

MileHighAko

For gymnastics I shoot ISO 1600-3200, and shutter speed of 500 or slightly above. I do not use VR for shutter speeds > 320. I rented the Sigma 50-150 and Nikon 70-200 before I made a purchase decision. Both are great lenses. I decided to go with the Nikon since at the time it was in my budget and I wanted the extra reach for football.

ThatCanonGuy

7D or D7000 (better in low light than D300s) + 70-200 2.8.

kcjb

Wonderful, thank you.

Since the D7000 is much less than the 7D, and the lens prices appear to be comparable, I believe I will be pursuing a used D7000. Based on that, any advice on buying used DSLRs from Craigslist?

The one I mentioned earlier in the thread is available, but since its my first DSLR I am probably a pretty easy mark. What would you do before dropping nearly a thousand dollars with a stranger?

I am told that he bought the 'extended warranty'. Has anyone purchased a used camera covered by the extended warranty? What information do you need to make claims?

Thanks again for the guidance!

ThatCanonGuy

kcjb wrote: »

Wonderful, thank you.

Since the D7000 is much less than the 7D, and the lens prices appear to be comparable, I believe I will be pursuing a used D7000. Based on that, any advice on buying used DSLRs from Craigslist?

The one I mentioned earlier in the thread is available, but since its my first DSLR I am probably a pretty easy mark. What would you do before dropping nearly a thousand dollars with a stranger?

I am told that he bought the 'extended warranty'. Has anyone purchased a used camera covered by the extended warranty? What information do you need to make claims?

Thanks again for the guidance!

Well, meet in person, inspect the camera very closely AND test it out before handing over the cash. Test all the features, and if you can, bring a laptop and look at them on that. I'm sure others on here have more advice.

theprincereturns

Camera - Pentax K5 ($1200 new on Amazon right now) is an amazing camera with the highest rated image quality of any non-full frame sensor cameras. Shoots great at low ISO, and amazing dynamic range that lets you pull tons of detail out of shadows.

Lens - Tamron 70-200mm F2.8 for Pentax ($770 new on amazon right now). This lens isn't quite as good as the canon or nikon offerings, but is pretty good and is 1/2 the price of canon or nikon. Plus you get the image stabilization built into the camera body so you get it free for all lenses rather then paying extra for it.

Matthew Saville

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

7D or D7000 (better in low light than D300s) + 70-200 2.8.

kcjb wrote: »

MileHighAko:

Mathew:

Thanks for the feedback.

The reviews I'm reading suggest that the D7000 compares favorably to the D300s in low light. What would compel you to pursue the D300s over the D7000?

Unfortunately, there is more to action photography than sheer ISO performance. Personally, I would ABSOLUTELY rather have a Nikon D300s, or a Canon 7D, compared to a Nikon D7000.

Why? The little things, for sure. The functionality and customizability of the controls, mostly. I just can't live without the semi-professional control layout.

For example in the thumb position on the rear of the D7000, there is only a single button, either for focus/exposure locking, or for AF-ON. While on the D300s, I get two buttons AND a switch, so I can do AF-ON, and change my metering mode, and I can lock my exposure, OR I can even customize the button to force-kill my flash in on-the-fly situations.

The D7000 has lots of functionality, for sure, and you could certainly get the job done. If I were a general hobbyist shooting things IN ADDITION to gymnastics, I'd go with the D7000 hands-down. But the OP said "the only thing you care about is getting the best gymnastics photos..." So, anyways, as a working professional (not in gymnastics, in portraits / weddings) ...I simply prefer the added performance that I can coax out of myself as a photographer when I have the semi-pro camera controls at my disposal.

=Matt=

theprincereturns

Matt is right that ISO performance can't make up for lack of control over your camera. Best thing to do is to get both if you can :-) I know most people here are Nikon or Cannon fans, but just to expand everyone knowledge a bit: The Pentax K5 uses the same sensor that the D7000 has (it manages to get slightly better performance out of it), but is a semi-pro camera with the controls you would expect from one. It is priced a little higher then the D7000 and slightly lower then the D300 (at least on last amazon check).

Of course the best thing to do is to read reviews for yourself. These reviews show all of the controls on the cameras and cover ease of use in addition to performance:

Pentax K5 Review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk5/
Nikon D300 Review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/
Nikon D7000 Review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond7000/

It is honestly hard to see you going to wrong with any of these cameras though as they are all very good.

Matthew Saville

theprincereturns wrote: »

Matt is right that ISO performance can't make up for lack of control over your camera. Best thing to do is to get both if you can :-) I know most people here are Nikon or Cannon fans, but just to expand everyone knowledge a bit: The Pentax K5 uses the same sensor that the D7000 has (it manages to get slightly better performance out of it), but is a semi-pro camera with the controls you would expect from one. It is priced a little higher then the D7000 and slightly lower then the D300 (at least on last amazon check).

Of course the best thing to do is to read reviews for yourself. These reviews show all of the controls on the cameras and cover ease of use in addition to performance:

Pentax K5 Review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk5/
Nikon D300 Review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/
Nikon D7000 Review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond7000/

It is honestly hard to see you going to wrong with any of these cameras though as they are all very good.

I've been watching Pentax for the past few years and am very impressed with the line of semi-pro / advanced amateur cameras that they've been making. For a crop-sensor enthusiast or semi-pro, they probably do have many advantages over both Canon and Nikon. And considering that all of the crop-sensor lenses I would consider buying are Sigma lenes, going with Pentax would be just fine. (Not knocking Pentax lenses, just saying that for what I do I'd be using the same lenses regardless of which body I picked.)

Unfortunately, Pentax still doesn't have a full-frame camera body, and if they did finally make one I don't know if it could match / beat the D700. So as a full-time professional, I unfortunately have had to forego a venture in the Pentax direction. But anyways, that's about it. Get out there and handle a few cameras before you decide, and then go for it!

=Matt=

kcjb

Thanks again to everyone in the thread. I know various flavors of these questions are common and it speaks to the patience of the community that you continue to help us wee fledgling photo-enthusiasts!

ThatCanonGuy

The Pentax K5 is very competent, and it could very well be the best APS-C DSLR on the market. The problem, like Matt said, is that Pentax doesn't make a full frame camera. And it would be hard for them to, because none of their current lenses would cover the sensor area. They've got excellent lenses (so I've heard), but they're limited to APS-C. If you don't EVER plan to go FF, then Pentax should be just as much of a consideration as Canon or Nikon IMHO. However, most serious photogs probably aren't saying "I NEVER want an full frame camera." Also, Pentax makes no 70-200 2.8, so you'll have to go 3rd party (not necessarily a bad thing). The lenses they do have seem to be really nice, but I need to learn more about them.

kcjb wrote: »

Thanks again to everyone in the thread. I know various flavors of these questions are common and it speaks to the patience of the community that you continue to help us wee fledgling photo-enthusiasts!

Hey, we were all wee fledgling photo-enthusiasts at one point

kcjb

Resurrecting this to ask a question.

What does the community think of pairing the D7000 and the Nikon 80-200 f/2.8 af ed for gymnastics in low light?

Since the lens would rely on the internal af motor on the D7000, I'm trying to discern whether the af speed would be good or not. Any thoughts?

ziggy53

Nikon doesn't publish screwdrive AF motor comparisons between the different bodies, but I have noticed trends in reading user accounts that seem to fall in line with the Nikon hierarchy:

From fastest AF to slowest AF:

D3 series (D3/D3s/D3x)
D2 series
D700
D300/D300s/D200
*D90/D80/D7000
*D70/D50

---

*(Not too much difference in these tiers.)

---

The other concern is AF accuracy and AF tracking accuracy. In this regard the newer camera bodies do seem more capable, probably due to more recent AF sensor design and more powerful image processors which direct autofocus operations.

ziggy53

I should add that using a camera that's not designed for sports just means you should shoot more images. With a "larger crop" of images to select from you can generally still get an acceptable number of keepers.

(It just means more sorting in post-processing.)

You can also rent better equipment for the more important events.

Matthew Saville

kcjb wrote: »

Resurrecting this to ask a question.

What does the community think of pairing the D7000 and the Nikon 80-200 f/2.8 af ed for gymnastics in low light?

Since the lens would rely on the internal af motor on the D7000, I'm trying to discern whether the af speed would be good or not. Any thoughts?

I simply can't recommend it, not when a lens like the Sigma 50-150 2.8 has HSM autofocus for $600 or so. The older AF-D lenses really do require a flagship body to perform at their best level of accuracy and consistency; on an advanced-amateur body like the D7000 you will definitely find yourself getting slightly soft images, A LOT.

However, remember again that often times Gymnastics in particular is a game of pre-focusing and letting the action come to you. Really, if you're expecting to be able to track focus on someone who is flying through the air, head over heels, NO CAMERA will fully satisfy you. That is why most of the experienced pros look for ways to *guarantee* sharp images. Namely, they find things to pre-focus on, and then they just wait and "pounce" on the action as it passes through their plane of focus. This works for most of the events in a Gymnastics event, depending on the angle you get. The uneven bars can be a bit of a challenge, but then again that's why I'm recommending a lens that CAN autofocus with some "snap" when you need it to. Get a Sigma 50-150 2.8 and it will pair very, very well with the D7000.

=Matt=

(Disclaimer: I'm not a full-time gymnastics photographer, but I have made a few dollars here and there over the years, using a D70, D200, and D300 and shooting on my Sigma 50-150 2.8. I haven't had a chance to shoot gymnastics now that I've got a D700 at my disposal, but I do have a friend who owns the D7000 with some kids in gymnastics and I'm hoping to get in a few test runs this season if I am free...)

kcjb

Wonderul, thanks again gents.

Dan7312

Maybe this is the classic "pre-focused" action image.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/gallery/featured/GAL1146840/12/15/index.htm
Not exactly gymnastics though:D

Matthew Saville wrote: »

However, remember again that often times Gymnastics in particular is a game of pre-focusing and letting the action come to you.