7D Youth Soccer

jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
edited October 5, 2011 in Sports
with 70-200/2.8II. Thanks for looking...

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-Jack

An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.

Comments

  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 27, 2011
    Hey Jack, I don't have an abundance of time, so I'll be quick. Some good shots here, and kudos for getting down to their level and shooting. I've actually never shot soccer with kids this young, but I can imagine it's rather difficult. One suggestion: Shoot/crop tighter. Number 10 is a good example where you capture a really nice moment and highlight it by a tight crop. Many other shots could benefit from this as well, IMHO.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited September 27, 2011
    Thanks John. It's actually not too hard with a little practice. The kids' level of play (U10) produces enough dramatic moments. It's a lot easier than younger levels where they just swarm the ball. I do shoot from my knees, which I think is one of the biggest secrets hidden in plain sight - I never see parents doing that.

    As for cropping, all these images are for sale on my SmugMug site and I leave them at 3:2 so the parents can buy whatever size they want and apply cropping themselves. Or I will when I review the orders. Also most of the action and poses would crop to a 4:5 or 1:1 shape, and sadly, parents just don't buy many 8x10s. A vertical 2:3 is so often just too tall and narrow, with lots of dead space top and bottom, or cut-off body parts. #10 is an exception to this - it was part of a sequence of a corner kick. I held the camera vertically. This is the only shot of the sequence that does not cut off a hand or foot. I also like to offer 3:2 shots as they include more context. I love the story that is being told in 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9. If parents want to crop in on their star, that's fine.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • donekdonek Registered Users Posts: 655 Major grins
    edited September 27, 2011
    I think you've done a great job with the limitations of relatively short glass. Nice Job Jack. Hopefully you'll save up for that longer lens with the proceeds.
    Sean Martin
    www.seanmartinphoto.com

    __________________________________________________
    it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.

    aaaaa.... who am I kidding!

    whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited September 27, 2011
    Thanks Sean! Actually all but 3 were taken significantly under 200mm, like 125-150mm, etc. Exif is intact if you're curious. Maybe I should move back a little and zoom in more. Although that isn't always possible as fields are often right next to each other. Also keep in mind this is a 1.6x crop body.

    I think when my kids are old enough to play on full size fields I'll rent something longer, like a 300/2.8 or Canon's forthcoming 200-400/4.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    donek wrote: »
    I think you've done a great job with the limitations of relatively short glass. Nice Job Jack. Hopefully you'll save up for that longer lens with the proceeds.

    I'd think that 200mm on a 1.6 CF body would be plenty of reach on a U10 field. You can't cover the whole field, but the lens is light enough that you can run around at get the shots close enough.
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011

    As for cropping, all these images are for sale on my SmugMug site and I leave them at 3:2 so the parents can buy whatever size they want and apply cropping themselves.

    Just curious how often parents ask for a particular crop. I have never tried to sell pictures are these kinds of games--or any games, for that matter.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    jhefti wrote: »
    I'd think that 200mm on a 1.6 CF body would be plenty of reach on a U10 field. You can't cover the whole field, but the lens is light enough that you can run around at get the shots close enough.

    It's totally fine for U10. I like to position myself behind the end line to one side of the net and cover about half the field, with the team I'm shooting driving towards me. Ideally the sun will be at my back or to the side. Then I will stroll down the sidelines to the other half to get some coverage of the defense and goalie, but I admit I am biased towards shooting the offense.

    I've shot up to U12 with this setup. It was a little short for that, I think that's a full size field. But I still got a good amount of keepers. I would imagine trying to follow soccer action at the opposite end of the field with a much longer lens would be difficult. At that magnification players would be moving out of the frame very quickly.
    jhefti wrote: »
    Just curious how often parents ask for a particular crop. I have never tried to sell pictures are these kinds of games--or any games, for that matter.

    SmugMug allows customers to perform their own cropping on each image at time of checkout. After 3 years of shooting my town's baseball and 1 year of soccer, only a minority of people actually do this. Either they don't notice that they can (or should) do it, or they don't care. So I usually end up doing it for them when I approve the order. Also the vast majority of prints sold are 4x6".

    I even tried uploading images that were already cropped to a 5:7 or 4:5 shape, just to see if I could coax or even force people into buying 5x7" or 8x10" prints. Nope. People would rather cut off body parts and buy a $2.99 4x6" than part with $7.95 for a 5x7" or $14.95 for an 8x10" of their child that they could proudly display in their home. ne_nau.gif
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    That last shot is just killer!
    It's totally fine for U10. I like to position myself behind the end line to one side of the net and cover about half the field, with the team I'm shooting driving towards me. Ideally the sun will be at my back or to the side. Then I will stroll down the sidelines to the other half to get some coverage of the defense and goalie, but I admit I am biased towards shooting the offense.

    I think most people never think about cropping to begin with, nor realize how much cropping can affect the impact of an image.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    mercphoto wrote: »
    I think most people never think about cropping to begin with, nor realize how much cropping can affect the impact of an image.

    I think you're right. So long as their kid is in the shot and doing something interesting, they're fine with it. Every now and then I check out those shooters who go around soccer tournaments and get a few shots of each team, then sell them online. Most of the pix are terrible: poorly composed and poorly WB/exposure corrected, and probably jpegs SOOC. Yet people seem to buy them--go figure...
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    I've shot up to U12 with this setup. It was a little short for that, I think that's a full size field. But I still got a good amount of keepers. I would imagine trying to follow soccer action at the opposite end of the field with a much longer lens would be difficult. At that magnification players would be moving out of the frame very quickly.

    I shoot with a 70-200 f/2.8 and a 400 f/2.8 prime, and I can say that I don't get many keepers from the far end of the field. It's not so much the magnification as it is all the bodies between the lens and the action; that, and the fact that, the keeper aside, most players have their backs to the camera.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    jhefti wrote: »
    I think you're right. So long as their kid is in the shot and doing something interesting, they're fine with it. Every now and then I check out those shooters who go around soccer tournaments and get a few shots of each team, then sell them online. Most of the pix are terrible: poorly composed and poorly WB/exposure corrected, and probably jpegs SOOC. Yet people seem to buy them--go figure...

    I notice the same thing with the amatuer motorsports I do (well, used to before spinal surgery!). My main competition here shoots with such fast shutters the cars look parked on the track. But people buy them up. I don't always understand why some shots sell either.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 28, 2011
    mercphoto wrote: »
    I notice the same thing with the amatuer motorsports I do (well, used to before spinal surgery!). My main competition here shoots with such fast shutters the cars look parked on the track. But people buy them up. I don't always understand why some shots sell either.

    Often times shooters don't really know the sport they are shooting, so they err on the safe side. I can imagine that getting the right amount of motion artifact, especially while panning, is rather difficult to do and took you a lot of practice to get right. Maybe these other shooters just don't have your skills! My son used to ski competitively, and I spent a lot of time by the side of the course figuring out proper SS and getting a smooth and even pan. Was never really happy with what I got, though...
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited September 29, 2011
    This guy in particular has done practically nothing but motorosports longer than I have, and I started in 2004. I was told once by the motocross crowd that I am too "artistic". But sometimes I wonder if people buy shots that are more like they take themselves. One thing I do know, and have known for a long time, I don't market myself very well, and that is the number one reason why my sales are what they are and not tons better.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited September 29, 2011
    mercphoto wrote: »
    This guy in particular has done practically nothing but motorosports longer than I have, and I started in 2004. I was told once by the motocross crowd that I am too "artistic". But sometimes I wonder if people buy shots that are more like they take themselves.

    I don't think one has to have an artistic eye to appreciate a well-panned motorsports shot with a speed-streaked background. Such shots have mass appeal.
    One thing I do know, and have known for a long time, I don't market myself very well, and that is the number one reason why my sales are what they are and not tons better.

    I think to actually make a living off of sports/events photography you have to print or at least take orders on-site, and provide cost incentives for people who buy on the spot. If you're not doing that, I'd say THAT is your #1 reason. I am simply not set up to do it, but photography is only a side business for me.

    Once a year I ride my motorcycle at a track and there is always the same photographer there. He has 6 view stations and there is always a feeding frenzy around them. That's how it's done, folks. He doesn't even print on-site, but the viewing and ordering closes the deal.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited September 29, 2011
    I think to actually make a living off of sports/events photography you have to print or at least take orders on-site, and provide cost incentives for people who buy on the spot. If you're not doing that, I'd say THAT is your #1 reason.

    I agree with that. In my mind the whole on-site ordering thing is crucial and I consider that part of marketing. Like you this is just a side thing for me and only so much capital investment and energy can go into this. The day job pays too well, and I love it too much, to spend too much time and effort on the photography.

    Back to the soccer photos, if I were to have images like that of my daughter when she starts playing sports in 5-7 years I'd be thrilled by what you captured!
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited September 29, 2011
    mercphoto wrote: »
    I agree with that. In my mind the whole on-site ordering thing is crucial and I consider that part of marketing. Like you this is just a side thing for me and only so much capital investment and energy can go into this. The day job pays too well, and I love it too much, to spend too much time and effort on the photography.

    I'm in a similar position. Although I don't love my day job, it would take too much hustle to make photography pay as well. It would cease to be fun.
    Back to the soccer photos, if I were to have images like that of my daughter when she starts playing sports in 5-7 years I'd be thrilled by what you captured!

    Thanks! 2 and 5 are my boy, it is a thrill to be able to get these shots. When I show pics like these (and of our 6yo daughter dancing on stage) to my wife, she forgives me for buying the toys!
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited September 29, 2011
    Thanks! 2 and 5 are my boy, it is a thrill to be able to get these shots. When I show pics like these (and of our 6yo daughter dancing on stage) to my wife, she forgives me for buying the toys!

    hehe...that's my justification as well!

    And agree about making a living at it...I do love my day job--it's very rewarding--and it is nice to shoot purely for the pleasure of it. When I cover pro sports for media outlets, I feel like I shoot very differently and don't have the luxury of taking my time in post. Still, it's kind of a thrill sport in itself: quick editing, captioning, and FTPing it off in near real time.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited October 1, 2011
    jhefti wrote: »
    hehe...that's my justification as well!

    And agree about making a living at it...I do love my day job--it's very rewarding--and it is nice to shoot purely for the pleasure of it. When I cover pro sports for media outlets, I feel like I shoot very differently and don't have the luxury of taking my time in post. Still, it's kind of a thrill sport in itself: quick editing, captioning, and FTPing it off in near real time.

    That does sound like a thrill and I would love to do that someday. I took a look at your Giants v Padres gallery (great stuff) and I see you're shooting a 5DII. I have a 5DII as well, how do you find the AF for Baseball? Never tried mine for Baseball action. Do you use Servo mode? Center point with expansion points? Any reason you are not using a 7D or 1D? Thanks in advance.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited October 3, 2011
    That does sound like a thrill and I would love to do that someday. I took a look at your Giants v Padres gallery (great stuff) and I see you're shooting a 5DII. I have a 5DII as well, how do you find the AF for Baseball? Never tried mine for Baseball action. Do you use Servo mode? Center point with expansion points? Any reason you are not using a 7D or 1D? Thanks in advance.

    The AF and burst mode are weaknesses of the 5D2, but the images are better than any other Canon except a 1Ds. For most sports I use timing rather than burst mode, and am well dialed into the 5D2. I use Servo with center point only (no expansion) and get great focus. That said, I also shoot with a 1D4 and a 1D3 (as a back-up, which I believe I used in that last Giants game because my 1D4 was in for its annual cleaning). However, my favorite shots are almost always from my 5D2.
  • adbsgicomadbsgicom Registered Users Posts: 3,615 Major grins
    edited October 5, 2011
    Though I'm just figuring this out myself, I really like 3/6/10 of the series, with 4&5 on their heels. The others are nice, but the interaction and emotion in those grab me...
    - Andrew

    Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
    My SmugMug Site
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