MS Soccer Feedback Request

adbsgicom

Still very much learning, but would greatly appreciate some feedback on these. The ones that have a little room, too much? Do you generally crop to random sizes or stick to 4x6/5x7/4x5 ratios? This is tiny private school MS soccer... I think most of the teams are all-play (no try-outs)....

1. Very sunny day trying out using a 1.4x extender on the 70-200 on my D700 (Full Frame)


2. I like the motion in the F/G but is it a keeper? Can't crop tighter at 4x6 but could do 4x5...


3.Still with the 1.4x extender


4.Now w/o the extender....


5.


6.Would you just crop this down to 1x1 and lose the defender, or just tighten it up a bit?
[Edit: Based on CCoop's feedback (and presumably one of the ones jhefti thought could use cropping), I cropped this down from what I had originally posted]


Thanks for your insights... We only have two more games in a very short season, though I suspect what I learn here will be mostly applicable to the flag football season that will gear up shortly...

jhefti

Hey Andrew--I'm always a sucker for the soccer shots (my favorite team sport) so I'll chime in.

First off, each shot has some unique action or quality about it, so your eye is naturally drawn to interesting parts of the game. This is good, as it is much harder to help someone who doesn't even know when to snap the shutter or what shots to delete. Overall, you've captured some great action, and your timing is good--half the battle in soccer!


It looks like the lighting was rather challenging in some of the shots, as the shadows look sharp. Bright direct sun is always hard to get good exposures in. One trick is to meter off the highlights (i.e. stop down a bit) then bring up the midtones and shadows in the post processing. It smooths things out a bit, but at the risk of adding some noise in the shadows. That said, you've done a pretty good job with the exposures.

Regarding crops, this is a highly personal matter. I try to stick with simple aspect ratios:2:3 or 3:4, though very occasionally will use a more unusual crop. But that's just me... I might also suggest a tighter crop in some of the shots, if you can.

It also looks like your shutter speed was on the slow side in some of the shots, dropping below 1/500 by the amount of motion blur in the feet. Although motion blur can sometimes be a desirable feature of a photo, it can degrade the overall crispness of a shot. I'd suggest keeping SS above 800, even for kids this young.

What is the widest aperture of your lens? Generally it is a good idea to keep the aperture wide open, to isolate the player(s) from distracting background (like the white car behind the goal in #5). It also helps if you can choose a simple background without clutter, but sometimes this is just not possible. When setting up to shoot at the pitch, the first thing I look for is the direction of the light, but the very next thing is the background.

What program mode were you using? It looks like one of the semi-auto or auto modes, judging by the variability in exposure, depth of field, and shutter speed. If the light is even and consistent, be bold and put the camera in manual mode. Then, open the aperture as wide as you can, set the SS to 1000, then trim the ISO to give you the correct exposure. (Again, I try to make sure that the faces don't blow out.) Make sure you are in Servo AF mode (which I suspect you were in these shots), and start shooting! I think you'll find the fixed settings will give you more consistent results than letting the camera determine the settings (assuming the light is uniform and constant; if it is not, then it takes a little practice and a lot of vigilance to shoot in manual mode.)

hope this helps!

adbsgicom

Thanks! The lens is the 70-200 f/2.8 which is f/4 with the extender on it. Since I'm usually doing more portrait work, my body is a D700 so no extra gain on the sensor. The first couple with the hard light were shot on a day with just a couple of clouds that kept the light changing often. Those I shot in S mode 1/500 ISO 400 which kept the aperture to f4 or 4.5 when the clouds blocked the sun but f/7 when not. Some of the other ones were wonderfully overcast days where I shot manual.

Which ones would you crop tighter? Is it considered bad form to lose body parts on the defender when pulling in the crop?

If you shoot Nikon, do you use the auto-ISO in M mode if the light is bouncing around so you keep control of the DOF and SS, or are you just really fast on reacting to the meter during the changing light?

CCoop

No 5 really captures the action as both players are up in the air, and you can feel the intensity right in front of the goal. No 6 if the best of the bunch for me: the subject, the ball. I would crop tighter here, trimming a little from the bottom, and from the right without chopping the blonde hair. Thanks for posting your shots!!!


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adbsgicom

Re-cropped #6 and replaced... The gallery kept the same link and clobbered the prior version, so apologies for losing the before/after aspect.
I have no idea what I was thinking prior. The crop is much-improved. Thanks!

jhefti

Hey Andrew, I am a Canon shooter, but the basics are the same. Also, I have never used an extender, so don't really have any idea how much degradation you get with one. However, I routinely use a 70-200/2.8 at the field--sometimes with a full frame body--and get some great shots. Of course, I need to be close to the action, such as kneeling near the goal and facing out towards the field. This also has the advantage of putting the players in the background, rather than some parked car or a garbage can.

Regarding the crops, you already did the main one. In general it is bad form to cut off body parts on the main subject(s). However, there are exceptions. Take your #2. You might be able to crop much tighter on the player with the ball, at the risk of cutting out part of player #36. You'll still get the sense that the kid with the ball faces a defender, but the emphasis will be on him and not the kid behind who is not doing much. Just play around and see what you get.

Regarding timing, #1 and #6 capture one of my favorite motifs in soccer: an arching body and a foot on the ball, ready to change direction. There is a real sense of motion in these shots, as you know that the stance you've captured is not stable (i.e., the person isn't just standing there). In general, I like to find the 'unstable' poses that suggest motion: changing directions, headers, long strides, etc... In #4, if you had released the shutter a moment sooner, when the leg of the player kicking the ball was wound up behind him, it gives more sense of imminent movement. This also takes practice to get right, but worth it. Here's an example from a recent MLS game: http://johnhefti.com/p499972154/hb79c438#h1be19e41


Regarding the shooting mode, it has been my experience that letting the camera take charge results in fewer properly exposed shots. Even when the light is uneven, I just keep an eye on the meter. One trick that helps with changing cloud cover, where things can vary quite a bit, is to get the exposure right at the beginning of the game--which for me means getting the faces and uniforms properly exposed. Once this is done, I pan the camera over the grass to see where it stands on the meter, and I remember this. During the game, I routinely go back to the grass so see how the overall light has changed, and adjust accordingly. The grass works well for this, as it is fairly uniform and homogeneous, and thus is a good indicator of overall light levels. I often use uniforms for this purpose as well, but more to make sure I am not blowing the highlights on really light and brightly colored uniforms. I guess it is almost unconscious now, but I check the meter just about every small break in the game.

Lastly, I might suggest leaving the extender off, setting the aperture to f2.8, and going near the goal. This should give you some great action shots, and that nice bokeh that isolates the main subject and really makes the action pop. I usually shoot with two bodies: one with a 400 f/2.8 and the other with a 70-200 f/2.8. I'll bet that at least half of my keepers are from the latter.

adbsgicom

Thanks, John. I'll have to play some with the positioning. This school has an insanely short season (7 games) so not much chance to get it all set, though I suspect the carry-over to Football to be decent. It will be another sunny day today... Next to last game...

adbsgicom

jhefti wrote: »

Here's an example from a recent MLS game: http://johnhefti.com/p499972154/hb79c438#h1be19e41

Yowza!!!

61/62 are unearthly.... Lots of really amazing captures in there.
Great timing on 91 with the ball still deforming the net....

jhefti

adbsgicom wrote: »

Thanks, John. I'll have to play some with the positioning. This school has an insanely short season (7 games) so not much chance to get it all set, though I suspect the carry-over to Football to be decent. It will be another sunny day today... Next to last game...

That is a short season! Soccer is one of the harder team games to shoot, as the action is fast and often unpredictable. One thing I forgot to say is that your angle in these shots is good; either you are rather short, or you were kneeling/sitting at the players' level. So many times photographers end up shooting down on the players, which for some reason makes the impact much less.

Anyway, good luck!

John

jhefti

Hey Andrew, just checked out your site--lovely portrait work!! I especially like some of the high key B&W and the shots from the Bat Mitzvah. You'll have no trouble picking up sports shooting really quickly.

BTW, in your pic on the home page, it looks like you have Canon glass on that body. Am I mistaken?

adbsgicom

jhefti wrote: »

Hey Andrew, just checked out your site--lovely portrait work!! I especially like some of the high key B&W and the shots from the Bat Mitzvah. You'll have no trouble picking up sports shooting really quickly.

BTW, in your pic on the home page, it looks like you have Canon glass on that body. Am I mistaken?

Yes. I just changed over for ergonomic reasons. I have some muscular issues and the positioning of the thumb wheel was killing me. Doing much better with the Nikon grip. Several little differences to figure out in how some of the metering behaves, but other than that, very happy.

jonh68

adbsgicom wrote: »

Thanks! The lens is the 70-200 f/2.8 which is f/4 with the extender on it. Since I'm usually doing more portrait work, my body is a D700 so no extra gain on the sensor. The first couple with the hard light were shot on a day with just a couple of clouds that kept the light changing often. Those I shot in S mode 1/500 ISO 400 which kept the aperture to f4 or 4.5 when the clouds blocked the sun but f/7 when not. Some of the other ones were wonderfully overcast days where I shot manual.

Which ones would you crop tighter? Is it considered bad form to lose body parts on the defender when pulling in the crop?

If you shoot Nikon, do you use the auto-ISO in M mode if the light is bouncing around so you keep control of the DOF and SS, or are you just really fast on reacting to the meter during the changing light?

In daylight, I tend to use auto ISO for my d700 and D3s, if there are shadows. What really throws you off are white and dark jerseys which will throw off your exposure. You have to experiment with spot and matrix metering to get best results.

For sports, it is better IMHO to be in manual mode rather than S mode because there is more to sports than just freezing action. It is also about trying to melt away the backgrounds. You give the camera too much control over aperture when in ss mode. On a sunny day, I would rather be in A mode to control aperture and DOF.

When in doubt, manual mode with auto ISO is the way to go. Then, you can tweak it. Ideally, you don't want auto anything, but you can use the auto settings to get an idea of where to start with your settings.

adbsgicom

jonh68 wrote: »

In daylight, I tend to use auto ISO for my d700 and D3s, if there are shadows. What really throws you off are white and dark jerseys which will throw off your exposure. You have to experiment with spot and matrix metering to get best results.

For sports, it is better IMHO to be in manual mode rather than S mode because there is more to sports than just freezing action. It is also about trying to melt away the backgrounds. You give the camera too much control over aperture when in ss mode. On a sunny day, I would rather be in A mode to control aperture and DOF.

When in doubt, manual mode with auto ISO is the way to go. Then, you can tweak it. Ideally, you don't want auto anything, but you can use the auto settings to get an idea of where to start with your settings.

Thanks. Learning the tool. Canon didn't have auto-ISO so it wasn't an option. Biggest hassle is unlearning 10 years of the zoom ring going in the other direction!!! Today was cloudless, and shot the whole game in manual only needing to tweak a little occassionally. Thanks for the feedback and pointers. Really bright day: f/2.8, ISO200, 1/2500.... much more crispness in the images

jhefti

jonh68 wrote: »

For sports, it is better IMHO to be in manual mode rather than S mode because there is more to sports than just freezing action. It is also about trying to melt away the backgrounds. You give the camera too much control over aperture when in ss mode. On a sunny day, I would rather be in A mode to control aperture and DOF.

Couldn't agree more! Aperture has a profound effect on the shot, so I want to make sure it is set correctly all the time. For me and soccer, that usually means wide open, but occasionally (e.g. corner kicks where I want to capture all the players in front of goal) I use a small aperture. I have the latter as a pre-set to I can switch to it quickly.

On the very rare occasion that I use a semi-auto mode, it is aperture priority.

adbsgicom

Getting there. I think overall things worked out better. Shooting from the end meant getting shots of the defenders' faces was limited (since I'm doing this for my kid's school I walk the line between getting good general shots and trying to get shots of all the kids).

1a. Nice Rembrandt Lighting on his face


2a.


3a.


4a. This kid ended up leaving the game after heading this corner kick.... He was okay, just a bit shaken... At this point, the game was still 1-1...

jhefti

Getting there, indeed! These are really well composed and timed. Can't comment on the color/exposure because I am looking at them on a lousy monitor. Nothing about the latter jumps out at me as being too far off, though.

Nice work! I knew you'd pick this up quickly!

John

adbsgicom

Thanks. Color probably could use a light bump in vibrance and maybe a push on the greens to make the grass seem a little less dead now that I look at them for the n-th time...