Do I "need" a 580ex/II? Help me decide....

divamum

Current flash setup: 420ex + 430ex triggered via ste2 or 7d.

I usually shoot ETTL - it's convenient, it's accurate and, so far, has never let me down. Yes, it's sometimes finicky out of doors, but so far, so good - it's one less thing to think about during a session. At some point I'll get radio triggers and go manual (thus any future flashes must also include manual, unlike the 420ex), but for the time being, this works well for me.

Indoors, I've managed to date with a 2-light setup, although now I have two strip boxes would love to be able to do a 3-light rig from time to time (eg 1 light+reflector as clamshell in the front, using two lights at low power in the strips as kickers/hair/rim)

I basically want a 3rd flash. I checked out one of the Yongnuo models and for all-manual it would have been perfect (they're surprisingly nice pieces of gear!), but it wouldn't work on optical slaves with my wireless setup, and I'm not quite ready to go all-manual yet. HOWEVER... do I really "need" to pony up for one of the 5xx's? It seems the advantages are its ability to act as a master (meaning it would give me a third IR way of triggering the other flashes), and its increased power. Or am I missing something, and another 430ex/II would be sufficient?

Ziggy, I know you're a fan of the Sigmas, but the prices new are comparable to what I'm seeing for a used 430ex, 550ex, or 580ex, so not sure if there's an advantage there or not.

Thoughts?

ziggy53

divamum wrote: »

... Ziggy, I know you're a fan of the Sigmas, but the prices new are comparable to what I'm seeing for a used 430ex, 550ex, or 580ex, so not sure if there's an advantage there or not.

Thoughts?

I doubt that you can find a used, but in good condition, 580EX for the price of a new Sigma DG Super flash. If you can, buy it. (The ones that I find are typically in the $350USD range, depending on condition.)

The Canon 550EX flashes are still very good flashes and they allow using an external high-voltage power supply so that you can speed up recycling "and" extend the time between battery changes. It should be capable of driving another Canon wireless compatible flash with full flash automation. (The 550EX would be master/commander.)

Both the Canon 580EX and the Sigma DG Super series flashes have a bit better output-power/battery life than the 550EX when they are used on a Canon crop camera. The reason is that the 550EX does not recognize when it's used on a crop body and it doesn't adjust the beam width accordingly. (For instance a 50mm lens used on a crop body does not need as much flash beam width as a 50mm lens used on a FF body. The extra flash coverage of the 550EX on a crop body is just wasted output.)

cmason

You really only need a 580EX if you want 1) a camera mounted flash in addition to your two off camera flashes, or 2) ability to manage 3 groups. (ST-E2 will only manage 2 groups).

Yes, 580EX is a superior flash, so consider its features as a flash, but if you want 3 flashes, you don't necessarily have to buy the 580EX. If you want all 3 flashes to be set separately, then a 580EX is mandatory, though, one of those flashes is the 580EX and is camera mounted. Otherwise, consider a 270EX, which is cheaper than a 430EXII, but like the 420 EX, has no manual controls.

If you want manual, get another 430EX and use it as a third, setting it to manual and triggered via one of the existing groups.

Matthew Saville

Unless you're ready to "go all manual", then I would say that your only option is in fact the 580. I wouldn't bother with the original 580, it is a plastick-shoed joke compared to the mk2...

Personally though, gimme a bunch of "dummy" manual flashes any day. When I compare the price of a YN560 against a 580 mk2, versus the advantage of TTL, ...I'd choose to work manually. The only time I really need TTL is for on-camera bouncing, for which purpose I only really need one flash. Of course I prefer the most powerful flash possible for my on-camera bounce, in which case I'd rather have one 580 mk2 than two other 4-series TTL flashes. But, minor details...


=Matt=

divamum

Thanks all. Matt, I'll have to disagree with you about the 580ex/II - like the 430ex/II, the change from a switch slave-->manual vs menu command, is a compelling incentive to go with the earlier model! Metal foot of the newer ones would be nice, though.

I'm ready to go manual - and if I increase outdoor work will need to, since line of sight in bright sun can be a real pain with the built-in IR commanders - but ETTL works great for me, and it's one less thing to think about! Can't deny it's one place I like letting the camera's chips help me out - it just plain *works* (and, of course, with the 430 I still have the option of using it manually should I choose, which I occasionally do )

Still haven't decided what to do at this point :. I'm just sorry I missed out when Andrew sold his 580ex last week - somebody beat me to it!!

ziggy53

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Unless you're ready to "go all manual", then I would say that your only option is in fact the 580. I wouldn't bother with the original 580, it is a plastick-shoed joke compared to the mk2...

Personally though, gimme a bunch of "dummy" manual flashes any day. When I compare the price of a YN560 against a 580 mk2, versus the advantage of TTL, ...I'd choose to work manually. The only time I really need TTL is for on-camera bouncing, for which purpose I only really need one flash. Of course I prefer the most powerful flash possible for my on-camera bounce, in which case I'd rather have one 580 mk2 than two other 4-series TTL flashes. But, minor details...


=Matt=

I rather prefer the Canon 580EX to the 580EX II. The primary reason is the user controls. On the 580EX everything is pretty straightforward, with slides, buttons and a control wheel. With the 580EX II you're working more with a menu on the LCD display.

I suppose that as I upgrade my cameras I would appreciate the 580EX II more, because you can set the flash through the camera's controls. Right now all I have that's capable of that is the 5D MKII.

I do agree about using older manual flashes. My preference there is the Sunpak 383 Super flashes. Relatively small for their output, they are usable as both a manual flash and an auto flash, and easily triggered from either a radio slave or an optical slave.

The Vivitar 285HV is also nice and I have a bunch of them, but they lack the finer output control that the Sunpak offers. Still, a Wein Peanut optical slave just pops onto the Vivitar and that combination can be great for a background light.

Dan7312

Just for a complete information set. The PocketWizard mini/flex/AC3 units can control the 420ex in both manual and eTTL. The PocketWizard site lists full feature set support for the 420ex. The AC3 uses the eTTL signal to "trick" the flash into the manual setting you specify on the AC3.

divamum wrote: »

Current flash setup: 420ex + 430ex triggered via ste2 or 7d.

I usually shoot ETTL - it's convenient, it's accurate and, so far, has never let me down. Yes, it's sometimes finicky out of doors, but so far, so good - it's one less thing to think about during a session. At some point I'll get radio triggers and go manual (thus any future flashes must also include manual, unlike the 420ex), but for the time being, this works well for me.

Thoughts?

divamum

Dan7312 wrote: »

Just for a complete information set. The PocketWizard mini/flex/AC3 units can control the 420ex in both manual and eTTL. The PocketWizard site lists full feature set support for the 420ex. The AC3 uses the eTTL signal to "trick" the flash into the manual setting you specify on the AC3.

Very interesting piece of info - thanks!

cmason

Of course, if you decide to go manual, you can't beat a set of Cactus Triggers, at least to get you started. And it looks like they have a new version:

http://www.gadgetinfinity.com/cactus-wireless-flash-transceiver-v5-duo.html

divamum

Yeah, Cactus has always been on my radar for when the time comes. That said, reading the specs - do they do HSS (do any of the radio triggers?) However, that's a peripheral question.

In the meantime, flashes. Still thinking ....

Dan7312

PocketWizard mini/flex and Radio Poppers do HSS and second curtain sync.

mini/flez also claim to get more light output for HSS than Canon sync does (infrared remote or on camera), about 1 1/2 stops worth.

Dan

divamum wrote: »

Yeah, Cactus has always been on my radar for when the time comes. That said, reading the specs - do they do HSS (do any of the radio triggers?) However, that's a peripheral question.

In the meantime, flashes. Still thinking ....

divamum

Thanks Dan!

ziggy53

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, I will mention that the Canon 580EX flashes do retain the HSS setting even if you chose a shutter speed below the need for HSS, which overrides the need for HSS, and then later chose a setting back into HSS territory. In other words the flash overrides the HSS setting when it's not needed, but reverts to HSS when the flash's HSS program/mode indicates that it should use HSS.

The Sigma approach is to cancel HSS mode when the shutter speed dips to the camera's flash sync speed or below. This means if you want HSS again you need to push 2 buttons (which I never found that big of a deal.)

While I wouldn't call this a singular compelling reason to chose the Canon 580EX, it is handy when you're in a hurry or if you plan to switch a lot between indoor and outdoor shooting (or a similar scenario).

Dan7312

The default config of the PW mini/flex turns on HSS when you go over a threashold for shutter speed. You can set this threshold, or prevent HSS if you want, but the factory setting is adapted to the camera model. So the mini/flex seems to sort mimic the Canon behavior, except that you can change the threashold and you don't turn on HSS on the flash itself.

I think that ability to change the threashold is related to the PW hypersync capability which allows you to sync at shutter speed that would normally require HSS by tightening up timing that turns the flash on and off. The net of this is that you get to use the full output the flash is capable of without going into the "blinky" mode that HSS uses. You do have to go though some calibration steps to get this to work though but I haven't yet taken, really had, the time to try this feature out.



Dan

ziggy53 wrote: »

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, I will mention that the Canon 580EX flashes do retain the HSS setting even if you chose a shutter speed below the need for HSS, which overrides the need for HSS, and then later chose a setting back into HSS territory. In other words the flash overrides the HSS setting when it's not needed, but reverts to HSS when the flash's HSS program/mode indicates that it should use HSS.

The Sigma approach is to cancel HSS mode when the shutter speed dips to the camera's flash sync speed or below. This means if you want HSS again you need to push 2 buttons (which I never found that big of a deal.)

While I wouldn't call this a singular compelling reason to chose the Canon 580EX, it is handy when you're in a hurry or if you plan to switch a lot between indoor and outdoor shooting (or a similar scenario).

divamum

More great info - thanks!

JimKarczewski

If you are going to go all manual... Then.. My choice would be, the cheap one. Canon 540EZ from somewhere like KEH.com. $100 average price, same power output as the 550EX, 580EX, 580EXII (was the top of the line at some point in Canon history so maintains that same power level.) I use 2 of them on manual all the time during basketball season for lighting the games. Never let me down yet... and as I said, CHEAP. I considered the Yongnou, etc... and ended up deciding on the Canons due to the fact if something did go wrong I might be able to get them to CPS for a repair if it wasn't cheaper to just buy another used one. There is no short supply of them either.. I might buy more this year so I can light both sides of the court instead of one. We'll see!

Matthew Saville

High speed sync is not really an absolute necessity, since you can just use a ND filter for the same effect. Using HSS cuts into your flash power, and although the new PW system does claim to be able to save you a stop or so at 1/8000 sec, you're still losing a lot of power and from the bug reports I'd rather just stick with the "dumb" simple systems, and an ND filter when I need shallow depth.

=Matt=

aktse

Here's another tidbit for your brain. I picked up a 580EX because of the master/slave switch, but I didn't realize that unlike the 580EXII, the 580EX does not accept a pc jack. I learned this the hard way when I loaned out my 580EXII', attempted a shoot and realize that I could not trigger it with a PW. Lesson learned.

My 580EXI has now been modified to accept the pc cord (requires a drill and a soldering).

Off the top of my head, I don't know how the PW mini/flex, RP, Yongnuo, Cactus connect to the falsh (cord, foot, cable etc), but it's a little something to remember.

Dan7312

Flex/mini has a hot shoe to connect to the flash. RP's do an optical connection, they have a LED that you arrange to be in front of the IR receiver on the flash.

Flex/mini also has a shutter output too that can be used to trigger the shutter on camera.

Dan

aktse wrote: »

Here's another tidbit for your brain. I picked up a 580EX because of the master/slave switch, but I didn't realize that unlike the 580EXII, the 580EX does not accept a pc jack. I learned this the hard way when I loaned out my 580EXII', attempted a shoot and realize that I could not trigger it with a PW. Lesson learned.

My 580EXI has now been modified to accept the pc cord (requires a drill and a soldering).

Off the top of my head, I don't know how the PW mini/flex, RP, Yongnuo, Cactus connect to the falsh (cord, foot, cable etc), but it's a little something to remember.

aktse

Dan7312 wrote: »

Flex/mini has a hot shoe to connect to the flash. RP's do an optical connection, they have a LED that you arrange to be in front of the IR receiver on the flash.

Flex/mini also has a shutter output too that can be used to trigger the shutter on camera.

Dan

Good info!

angevin1

Thought I might throw this out there. Beware the Sigma: FOR CANON flashes. DG, DG SUper, etc. They will not fire with a remote single terminal Wireless device. SO if you go Sigma, Just remember in order to use them off cam and radio fired, they'll have to be the pricier triggers not the cactus and so forth. I just went thru this about two weeks ago. I now have the Yonguo's and find them just peachy!

divamum

So Cactus don't work with Sigma, but the even cheaper Yongnuo do? Just making sure I understand you right, Tom

Still vacillating over this. I can pick up a 430ex in decent condition used for well under $200, so - since I can control 3-groups in ETTL via the 7d, and don't necessarily need the power the 580ex/II can offer - that may be my best option yet. I like the idea of having a more powerful flash like the 5xx series in case I ever need to do any serious outside shooting (ie where I need to overpower the sun, or spread the light over a very large area), but generally that's not the case; the 430ex may not pump out as much light, but it also weighs a great deal less and the larger form factor of the 580s looks a bit of a brute!

So, still thinking. THanks for all the very helpful input on flashes and triggers - hopefully this thread will be useful to other folks too!

BradfordBenn

Allow me to soften the shadows even more (muddy the waters); I am not as experienced as others in the thread but from what I have learned in audio I think will apply here as well. You can always turn down the output level from full; however once you are at full you are done. If I had it to do over again, I would have gotten the 580EX II instead of the 430EX II. The main reason is the external battery pack option for faster recycle.

Now in terms of shooting ETTL or manual, I have found that I like doing manual better than ETTL as it allows me more artistic control, but how much control can one really have with one flash. I think with a little practice you will be all over manual.

divamum

Well... my thinking is that if I have ETTL AND manual at my disposal, I can choose which to use whenever I like. If I buy a used 430ex now (<$200), when I get triggers, I could also add a YN all-manual ($70) for a more powerful flash that would then mean I had 3-units in ETTL (420+430+430), and 3-units in manual (430+430+YN). OR... I get a 580 for $300+. Not much to choose financially over the longer term, I suppose.

Still just thinking out loud... (seriously, should one sub-$500 purchase take this much brain-power?! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >)

Dan7312

If you are talking about a studio setup where you can use a cable, check out what Syl Arena has to say about a long cable and multiple flashes at http://ocfgear.com He does amazing stuff with one cable and who knows how many flashes.

Dan

divamum wrote: »

Well... my thinking is that if I have ETTL AND manual at my disposal, I can choose which to use whenever I like. If I buy a used 430ex now (<$200), when I get triggers, I could also add a YN all-manual ($70) for a more powerful flash that would then mean I had 3-units in ETTL (420+430+430), and 3-units in manual (430+430+YN). OR... I get a 580 for $300+. Not much to choose financially over the longer term, I suppose.

Still just thinking out loud... (seriously, should one sub-$500 purchase take this much brain-power?! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif&quot; border="0" alt="" >)

divamum

I really need to get his Speedlighting book at some point. In general I avoid cables, if only because my indoor shooting space is tiny and it would be one more thing to trip over.... Wireless gets rid of at least one bit of clutter (and indoors the STE2 rocks it - pretty close to 100% reliable, IME).

BradfordBenn

divamum wrote: »

seriously, should one sub-$500 purchase take this much brain-power?!

By thinking about these things, you end up having enough money to make the purchase - so yes it should take this much brain power to verify a US$500 purchase

Dan7312

BTW his speedlighting book is not focused on his cables, it literally covers everthing. He is a good writer and really knows his stuff.

For cables think gaffer tape when the cables don't have to move... but Arena has dumped and lost equipment at the end of a cable.

Dan

divamum wrote: »

I really need to get his Speedlighting book at some point. In general I avoid cables, if only because my indoor shooting space is tiny and it would be one more thing to trip over.... Wireless gets rid of at least one bit of clutter (and indoors the STE2 rocks it - pretty close to 100% reliable, IME).

cmason

FWIW, I have never had problems with my 430EX, 420EX and ST-E2 outdoors:

angevin1

divamum wrote: »

So Cactus don't work with Sigma, but the even cheaper Yongnuo do? Just making sure I understand you right, Tom

To be certain I am saying the Sigma-for-Canon will not fire with ANY single post wireless trigger set, not just cactus. I understand this to be because the Canon flashes do not use the center post to trigger the Flash. In other words your camera, the 7D will not trigger a Sigma DG Super wirelessly unless you have the eTTL style trigger set.

Which begs me to ask if anyone knows if a Canon branded flash will trigger with a center post trigger?

Dan7312

Another feature... the 580EX II has a pc connector to sync in, so you could use a non-hot shoe receiver with it. Of course that won't give you eTTL if that is what are looking for. The 580EX doesn't have this feature.

You better decide soon before the number of varibles becomes unmanagable:D

divamum wrote: »

Thoughts?