need some advice

edited October 26, 2011 in Mind Your Own Business
Recently I attend a local SCCA sanctioned solo event (aka Autocross). I received an email from a participant asking me to send him a high res image that he liked. I was wondering what is the most polite and professional way of asking him to purchase the download instead of me giving him it for free. Thanks for you help.

-Michael

Comments

  • dbvetodbveto Registered Users Posts: 660 Major grins
    edited October 11, 2011
    I would just say "Thank you for your interest, that shot is available for purchase at (web address)" it has worked for me. I would give it to him if it would open doors for me
    Dennis
    http://www.realphotoman.com/
    Work in progress
    http://www.realphotoman.net/ Zenfolio 10% off Referral Code: 1KH-5HX-5HU
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 11, 2011
    That's what I was wondering. Would it be beneficial to give him the shot for free or not? How can I know it would open doors or just be a waste of time?
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited October 11, 2011
    imprtslyer wrote: »
    That's what I was wondering. Would it be beneficial to give him the shot for free or not? How can I know it would open doors or just be a waste of time?

    Depends on a few things I guess, not the least of what you make out of the opportunity.

    What doors would you like to open?

    Track access, mention on the organisation website, rights to set up a stand at the track free of charge???
    First you have to know what you would like.

    2ndly, talk to the guy. You can sound him out and then suggest something like " Normally I charge $xx for a pic for that kind of usage but I am happy to sponsor your site/ organisation with pics from the events for your promo/ website/ whatever in return for track access/ official shooter status/ mention over the PA i'm there/ mention on future event programs" ...... whatever.

    I do this at virtually every event I cover. I have never paid an organiser to cover an event yet. I always donate some prints and images to the organisers for their promotion.
    I make it a point to ask if there is anything in particular they want other than I might do ( organising committe / staff shots are a popular and easy one) and that goes a real long way.

    -IF- you think there is potential with these events, get in on the ground floor, market yourself and milk the opporunity for ongoing benifit in the long term. As far as i know motorsports is Tough, but you would know the potential market.

    It seems to me you don't have a lot to loose if your interested in persuing this. The value of the sale of the image is neither here nor there and not going to break you if you give it to the guy and things don't pan out. OTOH, if your smart, the lifetime value of the opportunities you create from this one image by not selling it could very easily be worth many thousands and what's more, worth something you may not be able to buy as far as getting your foot in the door.

    You can sell it to the guy and make $X or you can SPONSOR them with the image and make many times more -IF- there are things you'd like to persue in this feild.
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 11, 2011
    Nicely put. I agree with everything you said. I don't think he is an event organizer but he is a regular in a few different clubs so hopefully he'll be able to get me in as the "official shooter". Thanks for the help!
  • jarboedoggartjarboedoggart Registered Users Posts: 270 Major grins
    edited October 12, 2011
    imprtslyer wrote: »
    Nicely put. I agree with everything you said. I don't think he is an event organizer but he is a regular in a few different clubs so hopefully he'll be able to get me in as the "official shooter". Thanks for the help!

    I have seen this situation a lot. Not me as the photographer, but with a group of friends that participate in SCCA events. Most of the time a smaller resolution picture with a REDICULOUS watermark will be supplied for free...then a larger watermark-free picture can be purchased.
    -Nate
    Jarboe Doggart Photography - jarboedoggart.com
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 13, 2011
    Thats a good idea but how do you tell smugmug to let certain downloads be free?
  • jarboedoggartjarboedoggart Registered Users Posts: 270 Major grins
    edited October 13, 2011
    imprtslyer wrote: »
    Thats a good idea but how do you tell smugmug to let certain downloads be free?

    just limit the size to be pretty small, then do not "right click protect". this will allow someone to right click and save the small watermarked version...or go through your cart to purchase the full size un-watermarked version.
    -Nate
    Jarboe Doggart Photography - jarboedoggart.com
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 13, 2011
    That works but it would be nice to see the amount that are downloaded. I'll give it a try
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited October 14, 2011
    Just tell the person to have a look thee and then email you the numbers which you can send to them. Might stop them getting too carried away with how many images they download if they are so inclined.
  • jwwjww Registered Users Posts: 449 Major grins
    edited October 14, 2011
    If you show up with a spotter, most SCCA regions will let you shoot once you sign the waiver, especially if you know what you are doing. (i.e not running out and getting in the way of competitors or workers, staying safe.. not letting cars come up behind you.. especially your spotter!!!).

    If you join (usually like $85 a year) and get to know them, they will let you shoot anytime you want and possibly if enough workers available, supply you with a spotter. Spotters are a necessary evil at SCCA autoX events, even if you shoot from the sidelines. Just part of their rules. You might make your shots available to the webmaster and newsletter editor of that particular region which helps cement the deal. The reason I know this is I've shot both regional and national SCCA autoX, club racing, and pro events for quite some time. I'm now a contributing photographer for SportsCar magazine with several covers to my credit and had quite a few shots land in Racer magazine among several others. I've also sold tons of pics along the way to drivers, teams, etc..

    So I wouldn't give it to them the shot for free. Your time and experience is worth something unless you are just starting out and feel you're not that great at it yet.

    Hope this helps! Lemme know if you have any questions.
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 16, 2011
    I have heard that the you can get a spotter, I'm just getting into autox as a driver and a photographer so I need to become more of a regular to be able to have it as a work assignment only problem is its winter here now so there is no more events. My pictures are't all superb but I think some are worthy for sale. Hopefully with some more experience and better shots I'll be able to get better. Thanks for your help everybody!
  • jwwjww Registered Users Posts: 449 Major grins
    edited October 16, 2011
    Ahh... well it is a ton of fun for sure (as in driving) and hard to perfect both in driving and shooting!

    AutoX to me is harder to shoot over racing in the essense of making a great looking autoX shot over a great racing shot. They both require skill obviously, but in autoX, they don't go that fast and in a huge lot that can have lots of distracting background issues. The more you can get closeups, showing the car leaning, the look of the driver through the side window, with a cone or two in shot to denote some sort of interest, the less they look like a car sitting still in a parking lot. Plus the rapid acceleration deaceleration, brake stabbing and changes of direction can make it hard to snag cool shots and have them in focus as well as the shot framed well. So picking your shots in advance is a huge plus. I generally walk the course and figure out the lines and depending on the sun, figure out where my best shots will be on the course for the morning and afternoon. Having a bit of reach is also a plus as you can get in close, without getting actually on the course or worse, within the course as I never want a car to come up behind me while shooting my desired shot. (ack!) Also keep in mind wacky angles of your camera can help quite a bit making cars look more dynamic in the slower turns, bus stops and boxes.
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 17, 2011
    I agree it is pretty tricky to get good shots that show the action well. I haven't had the chance to do much shooting at the events I've attended. I've been having my girlfriend shoot and the editing the good ones. But I'd rather take the shots of myself without having to be super far away. I have a decent 70-210 lens that I got for free but its not very sharp at long distance and it takes days to focus. I'd like a better lens but I can't afford to spend 800+ I'm hoping to attend some rally or rallycross this winter to get some more practice shooting in but its hard to find them in this frozen tundra thats NY.
  • toddh39toddh39 Registered Users Posts: 14 Big grins
    edited October 20, 2011
    what you could do is that person that wants the photo make a deal with him, Photo for you website on his car. sponsor him.
    Get your Website address out there for the other drivers to see. Even spectators to see your website name.
    Nikon D7000, D80,D200
    SB-700 SB-600
    AF-S DX 18-135/3.5-5.6G IF-ED
    AF-S VR 70-300/4.5.6G IF-ED,Tamron 70-300Di Cannon Powershot Pro1 GreatLakesexposure.com
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 24, 2011
    I might just sponsor myself! good idea
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited October 24, 2011
    imprtslyer,

    Do you have a website? If so why not include it in your signature? Also can we see the image in question?

    I am of several thoughts here. Are you a professional? Do you want to be a professional? Are the images professional quality? Are you just trying to make a few extra $$?

    If the lens your using can't produce sharp images why would someone be interested in buying an unsharp print? If your going to sell images I believe one must be able to use adequate gear, and produce good quality images. This will take gear, and practice.

    If your just starting and the images are so so I might be inclined to provide a smaller image for web and email use at no charge.

    I tend to think in terms of quality first..............I will put in the time to learn and practice. Then I will go into business more and look at marketing etc.

    Not the other way around.

    Just me thoughts.

    Sam
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 24, 2011
    I do have a website and I added it to my signature. I am not a professional and I'm not planning on majoring in photography, however, my goal is to take pictures as a hobby with professional skill and quality. I'm more than willing to admit I need practice and better equipment. Unfortunately for me I don't have the time or money to invest at the moment because I'm a full time mechanical engineering student. The picture that was in question was already emailed to the guy. The deal was for him to post my pictures in the club forum (which for some reason I couldn't get into). Which he did and another person bought a nice 8x10. I got a T2i as a gift last year and have been getting use to that. My zoom lens (which was free) was off a old slr and it's not very sharp. My goal for the autocross pictures have changed since I started this post for the exact reason you mention. The professional quality of the pictures isn't there. I think I will use it more as advertisement like I did, but still keep them for sale because that helps keep the website up and running. However, I am usually the only one at my events with a camera that is capable of nice pictures so I have the advantage of having the only pictures of people racing their cars. So in a way the image does not have to be absolutely perfect for people to by it. Even though my goal is to take perfect shots. With large batches during the school year I don't have the time to edit them to perfection I'll do a preset and make some changes upon request or before it goes to the print lab. These last few events I only took a small fraction of the shots, I was driving and working the course so I gave my girlfriend a chance to practice. Thanks for you help everyone and I'm always open for advice! So keep it coming! Check out my site to see some of my better shots :-P.

    Here's the shot in question:

    IMG1702-Edit-L.jpg

    Not perfect I know, but its something that he was proud of and nobody else caught him in the air :-P



    Here's the shot that was purchased a few days ago:

    IMG1289-L.jpg
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited October 25, 2011
    Never realised you had Mini (coopers) in the states. I take it there are not to many around.
    Is the open wheeler a Lola?

    You touched on something that I have read here a lot with racing photography and that is that people don't have the money to buy prints OR, would rather buy car parts. I have argued that myself but this seems to be the consensus of those that have done a lot of it so maybe something you should keep in mind.

    The other thing is there always seems to be a stack of people wanting to take racing pics and happy to give them away so they can get themself track passes etc. They are happy to trade pics for access and involve themselves in ways that allow them to be close to what they can't afford otherwise.
    When I was up at Bathurst the other week there was a bunch of guys with 1d'S and a variety of white lenses all taking pics very seriously. My mate went and had a chat with them and asked if they were shooting for a site or publication and they looked surprised and said no, they just liked to get good shots of the cars because they were into the sport.

    They may not have the skills in the actual shooting but if they have spent that sort of money on gear you can bet they have had plenty of practice and are probably on forums reading how to do it right and therefore would have a very decent standard at least. Now if they are friendly with the drivers or know someone, you are going to have to get something pretty good to compete.

    Maybe autocross is different but the first thing that would come to my mind is if there is no one doing already, why not? I think it would be Naieve to assume that no one has Discovered the sport yet. I'd be more thinking they tried and it wasn't worth their while.
    That said, you don't know what they did, what they offered, pricing etc.

    If your camera does Video, perhaps this may be worthwhile for you to look at? I am just going into it myself atm and am seeing the possibilities in event work. It would be good for the drivers to be able to see their drive and any mistakes they made and it may work better than stills for you.
    With a decent laptop or desktop, you could produce the DVD's in the car park from under a pop up shelter and have the finished product ready for the drivers to take home. I am offering it on a pre-booked/ paid basis so I only have to cover the people that want it.

    If your only going to do stills, I'd still go the prepaid only route and go for mass sales. Maybe $20 or less for a disk of all the pics you take on a run. Might sound too cheap and i'll bet all the people that are big on theroy but never actually sold event work will carry on about your rights and useage and all that good in theroy, not so smart in practice stuff but the aim of the game is to put $$ in your pocket. A whole bunch of your precious artwork is worth Zip when all it's doing is sitting on the HDD of your computer.

    If you think outside the square with Vid or bulk images on a Disk, you may have something that the drivers will part with their cash for.
    I'd suggest do your homework first and just go ask people what they want and like. I do it every opportunity i get and you always learn stuff that you would have never thought of in a million years or discover that what you were thinking the benifits or advantages of are at odds to what the clients do and are irrelevant to them even if they are important to you.

    You might find that when you show them the shots taken with the lens you have now and run through PS, they thinit's excellent and you can use that to earn some money to put toward something better.
  • kitkoskitkos Registered Users Posts: 63 Big grins
    edited October 25, 2011
    I believe in the "give away" method and it has brought me a lot of paying business but I recently had a little surprise.
    I am trying to tap into the youth soccer business and was over shooting a friends child recently. I ran into a co-worker and told her I would shoot her child also.
    I gave pictures to both families.
    The original family has brought me a ton of business. I had not heard anything from the co-worker or from anyone on her team so I asked her if she liked her pictures. She said “yes, we loved them. The ones you took that had other kids in them I GAVE to the other families. So I shot myself in the foot.
    In the future, I will make myself very clear that the pictures I “give” away are not to be given away to potential customers.
  • SystemSystem Registered Users Posts: 8,186 moderator
    edited October 26, 2011
    @Glort Yeah we have a ton of the new minis in the states but not very many old ones. Besides a friend owning one the only other time I see them is at Watkins Glen International for special events. I think you hit on a lot of good points. I like the idea of giving the pictures as a bartering item. It makes sense that people would rather trade things instead of money when it comes to things like pictures ect. I have all winter to talk with the guys in my region to find out what they want and negotiate some kind of deal. I love the idea of selling the pictures in bulk for cheap it seems like it would get more attention and attract more people to the website and might even lead to print sales. My plan for the money I make is to upgrade my gear so the littlest bit would be better than nothing. The video idea is great to. Yes my camera does video but I do have a gopro which would be cool to use that on more than just my car. I could maybe work on a scheme for that such as $5 for all your runs and I'll edit them send you the video and I could use it on my youtube for an advertisement (and get some google ad sense out of it). Thanks or your help! Being new at this and getting pointers saves me alot of time. Hopefully with the shots I got from this year I can talk to the regions and work something cool out!

    @Kitkos I guess you just chalk that down as a learning experiance :-P But it might come back around if they are not all on the same team for next year! I was thinking of shooting my little cousins softball games next year so I'm interested in your other learnings. Thanks for your help!
Sign In or Register to comment.