Printing

cybercrypt13

I've signed up for a professional account and have started uploading some images but I'm worried about something. I am well aware that images do not look the same between the different sizes due to paper sizes and cropping. I have a professional print house that I have been using that I love and would like to continue using them.

However, I like being able to upload my images and setup my galleries on your site.

So my question is: Can I use your site and allow people to order through your site, but not have you print them. Have it setup so that I can take their order, process the images here with whatever they wanted and then send to my current print house for the prints?

Thanks,

glenn

jfriend

No self fullfillment

cybercrypt13 wrote:

I've signed up for a professional account and have started uploading some images but I'm worried about something. I am well aware that images do not look the same between the different sizes due to paper sizes and cropping. I have a professional print house that I have been using that I love and would like to continue using them.

However, I like being able to upload my images and setup my galleries on your site.

So my question is: Can I use your site and allow people to order through your site, but not have you print them. Have it setup so that I can take their order, process the images here with whatever they wanted and then send to my current print house for the prints?

Thanks,

glenn

This has been requested several times before by other pros and the conclusion then was that it is not currently possible to use Smumug's shopping cart and ordering system and payment system, but fullfill the order yourself.

When it was discussed previously, it was not clear whether this was something that smugmug thought was important and was likely to do or not. There are other services (primarily the ones that only cater to pros) that can do this. The range of desirable features for active pros range from being able to do final prep on the prints that were ordered before they are actually printed (including optimizing the image itself or the crop for a particular size) to fully handling the printing yourself.

There are some folks on smugmug who are fullfilling orders themselves, but all I've seen is people hacking together some combination of email and paypal (outside of smugmug's order system), to make this work.

I'd love to hear from smugmug folks whether this is a direction they are interested in or not.

cybercrypt13

Well, I have a couple issues that will lead to me not using your services.

1) I have never found a print service such as Shutterfly, Wolf Camera and a few others that comes close to the quality prints I get from my printer.

2) I would like my signature on my images when they print and it would be quite impossible with people ordering different size prints.

3) Depending on the photo, there are other things that I sometimes do such as frames and other effects. When printing, most printers expand the image slightly in order to insure it meets the edges of the paper. This requires things to move around a little to look right and must be done in the pre-processing before the print is submitted. Each size requires different techniques and processes depending on its size.

I am very interested in finding a nice professional interface that will allow me to post session photos and other stuff and would allow people to order online instead of having to email me image names and sizes. But at the moment I will not be able to use your services due to your printing practices.

If there is anyway to have my orders not printed then I'd stay. Do you happen to know any names of other websites that allow these features that I could checkout?

Thanks,

glenn

jfriend

See this previous thread

cybercrypt13 wrote:

Well, I have a couple issues that will lead to me not using your services.

1) I have never found a print service such as Shutterfly, Wolf Camera and a few others that comes close to the quality prints I get from my printer.

2) I would like my signature on my images when they print and it would be quite impossible with people ordering different size prints.

3) Depending on the photo, there are other things that I sometimes do such as frames and other effects. When printing, most printers expand the image slightly in order to insure it meets the edges of the paper. This requires things to move around a little to look right and must be done in the pre-processing before the print is submitted. Each size requires different techniques and processes depending on its size.

I am very interested in finding a nice professional interface that will allow me to post session photos and other stuff and would allow people to order online instead of having to email me image names and sizes. But at the moment I will not be able to use your services due to your printing practices.

If there is anyway to have my orders not printed then I'd stay. Do you happen to know any names of other websites that allow these features that I could checkout?

Thanks,

glenn

There was a previous thread on this subject here. One that I thought was particularly interesting in this regard was Exposure Manager.

cybercrypt13

Thanks for the info. It is disappointing to me that your services seem to be far greater than what they offer but not allowing me to handle print processing is going to be a deal breaker. I can't trust your technicians with what my customers get in the end.

If you have any further ideas about how I might be able utilize your services I"m all ears. I love your processes and functions but that just can't be worked around...

thanks,

glenn

Baldy

There was a really great post maybe a month ago where a photographer described her desire to do her own fulfillment. I remember thanking her for such a clear explanation of what she wanted. I couldn't say whether it's something we would do or when, but I did promise we'd give it the consideration it deserved.

I can definitely see why many photographers would want it and under many circumstances I personally would too.

Among the things we have to decide at smugmug is how we'd handle customer support and unsatisfied customers. Today, we know how to track their packages, explain delays, quality issues, etc. We know that under almost any condition we can correct a problem and get a great print in the customer's hand quickly, whether we can contact the photographer or not.

I'm not saying we won't do this, only that there are several things on our list ahead of it and we want to make sure that we can do it well and not end up charging customers credit cards and then having no answer for them if their order is delayed or they don't like their prints.

Thanks,
Baldy

cybercrypt13

I can respect that decision, but in my opinion you should not have a professional purchase price on your services as you do not allow a professional photographer to use your site. Most of them would not be printing their prints over a service that prints 10 cent prints. I'm sure that you do a good job of printing, however, I would be willing to bet you money that you do not do as good a job as my print house.

I have compared places like shutterfly and wolf and a couple other places on the net that I don't remember the names of at the moment and none came back even close. From colors being off to the quality of the paper the prints arrive on. As a result I would never really consider another printer.

Also, I have to make sure prints look good and are cropped properly, you are not giving me that option. I would almost consider testing your print services to see how well they compare for some of my lower end work, however, you would have to at the very least allow me to provide the actual images to you to print.

For example: You receive an order from a customer and you ask me to provide the actual prints for the order. You wouldn't use what I had uploaded but would instead wait for me to upload images for each request that were already sized and cropped the way I wanted them. That would at least be a good first step.

However, again, I would have to see your quality of prints and they'd have to be at least close to what I get done. My printer doesn't print 10 cent prints. You kill them on the cost, however, my customers when handed a print from them and from a cheaper 10cent service would immidately see the difference.

Please keep in mind that the only reason I'm still talking to you here is that I like your services and your templates and overall workings of your site. I hate the fact that I haven't found anything better dispite the fact that others do what I want in respect to the other comments.

glenn

Baldy

Hi Glenn,

Great feedback, thanks. The lab we use is EZ Prints in Atlanta, a pro lab that we believe is one of the best 3 on the Internet (the other two being whcc and MPIX). We've sent nearly 1.5 million prints through them — many bound for museums and photographic exhibits — and except for a brief flirtation they had with Agfa printers on their 11x14s, the results we've received have been excellent. I think if you were to search the forums on www.dpreview.com for smugmug print quality or ez prints, mostly you'd read raves.

Our original print fulfillment partner was Shutterfly, but we switched prior to offering our pro services. PrintRoom also uses EZ Prints and when Photoreflect only offered one printing option, it was EZ Prints as well.

I'm happy to make test prints for you if you'd like. You have full control of cropping online.

Thanks,
Chris

Techman1

Glenn,

I would like to also fulfill my orders via the Smugmug service and use my existing lab, but my main purpose as a pro is to have Smugmug fill the void where people only want one or two prints from my sports or events photography. If you were to have a few prints printed at EZPrints via Smugmug, I think you would be pleasently surprised at the quality. Prior to turning on my site to any clients, I ran a series of prints using each of the papers offered through Smugmug. While the quality isn't exactly that of my perferred lab, it is very high quality.

I still use my other lab for portrait work where I want my prints to be the absolute best they can be. But, for Sports and Event photography this is a very good service and I don't have to spend a lot of time preparing everything for printing one or two small prints.

I hope you find the service you are looking for. There are several out there, but the cost is fairly high and you still have to do the work.

Good luck in your search!

Fred

behr655

cybercrypt13 wrote:

I would be willing to bet you money that you do not do as good a job as my print house.



glenn

Have you ordered a print from smugmug? It seems you are forming your judgements on assumptions. I'm not saying that smugmug is as good or better than the service you now use. I don't know because I have not used the service that you use. Why don't you spend a couple of bucks and find out.

Bear

cybercrypt13

behr655 wrote:

Have you ordered a print from smugmug? It seems you are forming your judgements on assumptions. I'm not saying that smugmug is as good or better than the service you now use. I don't know because I have not used the service that you use. Why don't you spend a couple of bucks and find out.

Bear

You would be absolutely correct. I am forming them on opinions, however, as I stated, that is not the main point of my concern. The final output to be sent to the customer is the concern. It is impossible to take a picture and have that picture printed as a 4x6 a 5x7 and an 8x10 and have the picture identical. It requires cropping and other concerns.

That is the sole site of my concern with the service. There is nothing else. As I stated earlier, I would print through them and give it a try, but the lack of me being able to fill the actual orders is of great concern for me. I have taken beautiful shots before to have a person in a lab crop it badly or the colors turn out wrong. I'd like to be able to control what my customers are receiving.

Doing what I suggested would also allow smugmug to service professionals and still maintain their level of customer service they desire. The reason I say this is because it would allow them to see what was going on at all times and there could even be an agreement that if an order is not filled within a day or so that they handle the printing with the existing photographs. And perhaps there are some photographs that we could just tag as autoprint that we don't even want passed to us.

I've about decided that I'm going to give your service a try. I had cancelled my account thinking I had found another service already and while they do have a really nice user interface that you use to manage and set things up, I don't like their charges and their image resolutions are very bad.

So now to figure out how to turn my account back on... :

glenn

Baldy

Hi Glenn,

On the cropping issue, which used to be really nasty for us, there is a cropping interface in the shopping cart that empowers customers to adjust their own cropping. Intuitively it was very hard for me and I'm sure other photographers to put cropping in the hands of your customers, but actually our returns for cropping are near zero. Sometimes consumers crop differently than I would (they seem to be allergic to cutting off tops of heads) but they get the crop they want.

And on color, we have a true color option you can set so that what you measure in Photoshop's eyedropper tool is what you get. That's actually a double-edged sword because even some very good photographers use their eyes to guage color on a calibrated monitor, which is a shakey proposition because you can calibrate your monitor but not your eyes. The photoshop eyedropper tool, however, doesn't lie.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Chris

cybercrypt13

Thanks Chris, but one more question. What about placing your signature on the images? And is there any control over what might be printed on the backs such as name or contact information in case they wanted to find us years later...

And without placing a small signature / copyright on the front of the picture then they would be free to copy the image as much as they liked. I realize in today's time there isn't really much you can do about that, but every little bit helps...

thanks,

glenn

Andy

cybercrypt13 wrote:

Thanks Chris, but one more question. What about placing your signature on the images? And is there any control over what might be printed on the backs such as name or contact information in case they wanted to find us years later...

And without placing a small signature / copyright on the front of the picture then they would be free to copy the image as much as they liked. I realize in today's time there isn't really much you can do about that, but every little bit helps...

thanks,

glenn

hi glenn - you may place your signature on your print yourself, in photoshop (that's the way i'd do it if i were to include sigs on my pic). i've been using the smugmug service as a pro for nearly three years. regarding backprinting - it's something that's been asked for and the smugmug engineers know about it, but it's not available yet.

i hope this helps, holler if i can answer any other questions for you...

cybercrypt13

Thanks,

I have noticed that if I choose different themes for my galleries that I end up with no option to purchase the pictures. Does this mean that you can use themes if you want a shopping cart?

I'm also trying to figure out how to get certain things to show up on the front page but not all. Like show me a list of catagories on the front page but not the actual galleries. Otherwise I'll have a front page that has too much stuff on it.

I'm still looking and may figure it out on my own, if so I'll post back...

glenn

Andy

cybercrypt13 wrote:

Thanks,

I have noticed that if I choose different themes for my galleries that I end up with no option to purchase the pictures. Does this mean that you can use themes if you want a shopping cart?

I'm also trying to figure out how to get certain things to show up on the front page but not all. Like show me a list of catagories on the front page but not the actual galleries. Otherwise I'll have a front page that has too much stuff on it.

I'm still looking and may figure it out on my own, if so I'll post back...

glenn

themes do not affect prints being allowed for purchase or not - that's in "customize gallery" printing=yes/no

front page: choose: display galleries or categories. on my site, i have categories showing, so that only those four show. anything you don't want to show on the front page, you make "private" and it wont show.

hope this helps,

cybercrypt13

ok, figured out what I did on the ordering thing but still a little confused at why my main galleries are showing on the front tab instead of the catagories they are in...

For example: I have a reunion inside of Events. But the main reunion gallery shows on the front page, not a link to events...

thanks

glenn

Barb

cybercrypt13 wrote:

ok, figured out what I did on the ordering thing but still a little confused at why my main galleries are showing on the front tab instead of the catagories they are in...

For example: I have a reunion inside of Events. But the main reunion gallery shows on the front page, not a link to events...

thanks

glenn

Hi Glenn

When you are logged in, you can choose to show Galleries or Categories. Pick Categories and you'll be good I think

Andy

DigitalDaze wrote:

Hi Glenn

When you are logged in, you can choose to show Galleries or Categories. Pick Categories and you'll be good I think

gosh barb your new smugmug site is looking beautiful!!!!!!

Barb

andy wrote:

gosh barb your new smugmug site is looking beautiful!!!!!!

Thx Andy! Mike's magic. I think he'll be thrilled when he's done with me -

Techman1

Glenn / Smugmug Support,

I've asked also about the back print issue, but haven't seen any responses as to when this might be considered. I wish the back print at least had a © Professsional Photographer - Do Not Copy statement. At least this would discourage some from copying them and would certainly deter the WalMart's or other photo labs from helping customers make copies. As it is currently, the prints only have "smugmug.com" along with printing information on the backs. No © copyright symbol at all.

I hope Smugmug will take this on soon as I don't believe it would be a difficult task to implement as a standard on the backs of each print. Long term, it would be great if we could place our own copyright information on the back. Maybe someday!!!! :

Fred

Andy

Techman1 wrote:

Glenn / Smugmug Support,

I've asked also about the back print issue, but haven't seen any responses as to when this might be considered.

hiya fred - this has come up before, and the engineering team is well aware of the request - and in fact has even said that "it's on the todo list" but with no promised date of delivery. the dgrin search tool is your friend, there's a few threads where this has been discussed.

thanks for the valuable input!

cybercrypt13

Andy,

Thanks a lot, is your website done using smugmug? How do you get the domain and pages to look like your own instead of them showing the smugmug address?

Thanks,


P.S. Thanks for the info as well, going to try that now...

glenn

Techman1

Andy,

Thanks for the reply. Actually I did do a search some time back and started another thread on this subject at that time. I was just commenting on this subject since Glenn brought it up again. It's been said in the past that it only comes up every once in a while and I'm hoping to comment each time I see it so that it gets higher on the "to do" list.

Thanks for all of your help and advice on this forum. I really appreciate you always stepping up to assist new and old members. Keep up the good work!

Fred

Mike Lane

cybercrypt13 wrote:

Andy,

Thanks a lot, is your website done using smugmug? How do you get the domain and pages to look like your own instead of them showing the smugmug address?

Thanks,


P.S. Thanks for the info as well, going to try that now...

glenn

If you are a professional Smugmug account holder you can do what is called a CNAME record with your host provider. Go to http://smugmug.com/help/professional-accounts for more information.

Matthew Saville

Baldy wrote:

Hi Glenn,

Great feedback, thanks. The lab we use is EZ Prints in Atlanta, a pro lab that we believe is one of the best 3 on the Internet (the other two being whcc and MPIX). We've sent nearly 1.5 million prints through them — many bound for museums and photographic exhibits — and except for a brief flirtation they had with Agfa printers on their 11x14s, the results we've received have been excellent. I think if you were to search the forums on www.dpreview.com for smugmug print quality or ez prints, mostly you'd read raves.

Our original print fulfillment partner was Shutterfly, but we switched prior to offering our pro services. PrintRoom also uses EZ Prints and when Photoreflect only offered one printing option, it was EZ Prints as well.

I'm happy to make test prints for you if you'd like. You have full control of cropping online.

Thanks,
Chris

Hi Chris. I'd just like to take a minute to ask, has smugmug ever considered attempting to get on board with WHCC instead of EZ prints? I'm starting to like EZ prints less and less.

It seems that even though each "tubed" print comes with a confidence-building square of paper that has an "inspection" stamp on it, they still can't roll a print for the life of them. It is a small minority of prints that don't have creases in them. (in the category of prints larger than 10x15") Mostly these won't show if I mount and frame the photo, but just recently I got a 16x24 that had a flat out rimple thingy in it, like you do to the corner of a page in a good, suspenseful novel. I would definitely have fired whoever was checking my print and stamping that QC stamp... I really couldn't accept that print. Smugmug of course has always handled print complaints very professionally and replaces prints without question, but it's still a loose-loose situation because I have to wait double the time and someobody has to pay for the new print. And it always seems that on the occasions when a print goes bad, I'm a week or two before a deadline etc. etc.

I have started to order from WHCC a lot, and their print quality is superb in both aspects. (Great color/tone, no physical damage) ...Their prints even cost less, for the most part! If smugmug could rig up some way to FTP orders over to them in a manner they'll accept, I would be in heaven. I abhor having to use FTP to upload and then order prints.

Please consider. Their prices are cheaper, and their quality is higher. And I won't be ordering anything bigger than 10x15" through EZ prints again... :-\

Other "large print"-ers can confirm or refute my case.

-Matt-

PS- WHCC "proofs" for 4x6's and 5x7's do come with text on the back. Maybe you could work with that as well?

cybercrypt13

Matthew Saville wrote:

Hi Chris. I'd just like to take a minute to ask, has smugmug ever considered attempting to get on board with WHCC instead of EZ prints? I'm starting to like EZ prints less and less.

I SECOND THIS AND THIRD AND FOURTH!!!

WHCC is who I've been using and its who I said I would find it hard for anyone to beat. Its the main hang up I have with this service. I know you have told me that the company you use is great and I'm going to try them just because I like your service and your site, but I have to tell you that I"m not too comfortable putting my clients in the hands of your print company and leaving me no options if things don't work out. I"m spending a lot of time trying to get your site setup to work for me and it would be ashame to waste all that time to find out your printer can't do the quality work I demand...

Thanks,

glenn

Andy

Matthew Saville wrote:

It seems that even though each "tubed" print comes with a confidence-building square of paper that has an "inspection" stamp on it, they still can't roll a print for the life of them. It is a small minority of prints that don't have creases in them. (in the category of prints larger than 10x15") Mostly these won't show if I mount and frame the photo, but just recently I got a 16x24 that had a flat out rimple thingy in it, like you do to the corner of a page in a good, suspenseful novel. I would definitely have fired whoever was checking my print and stamping that QC stamp... I really couldn't accept that print. Smugmug of course has always handled print complaints very professionally and replaces prints without question, but it's still a loose-loose situation because I have to wait double the time and someobody has to pay for the new print. And it always seems that on the occasions when a print goes bad, I'm a week or two before a deadline etc. etc.

hiya matthew, thanks for the feedback and suggestions .. - and sorry you've been having troubles - i'm passing this info directly to the source.

Matthew Saville

cybercrypt13 wrote:

I SECOND THIS AND THIRD AND FOURTH!!!

WHCC is who I've been using and its who I said I would find it hard for anyone to beat. Its the main hang up I have with this service. I know you have told me that the company you use is great and I'm going to try them just because I like your service and your site, but I have to tell you that I"m not too comfortable putting my clients in the hands of your print company and leaving me no options if things don't work out. I"m spending a lot of time trying to get your site setup to work for me and it would be ashame to waste all that time to find out your printer can't do the quality work I demand...

Thanks,

glenn

Glenn, let me add a little to what I've said:

For printing photos of for example a wedding, I love the current smugmug setup. EZ Prints does great color work, the 4x6's, 5x7's, etc. etc. all the way up to 11x14's (they all ship in a FLAT package) are awesome. High quality, great color, and Fuji Crystal Archive paper. I have never gotten a "flat package" print order messed up other than when I tried to sample all the different paper styles from the same image. I'm not sure if I can blame them for that one, it was a doozie...

(It's oh-so-nice that WHCC sends you a packet sampling all their papers though!)

However, DO TESTS before you order B&W from smugmug's current setup. The EZ Prints printers add a little warm cast to photos, and the fact that they're not "true B&W" prints anyway is always evident to the perceptive eye...


Andy, thanks for the attention. I of course already got a confirmation that they'll re-do it for me. But letting the "big guys" know about the broader situation, and how the experience has led me to cease printing larger than 10x15, is definitely a help.

To be honest though, I bet it will NOT be as easy as "oh, let's hop on board with WHCC".

Their FTP style of uploading and ordering is rather unorthodox, and I'm sure it's what helps them keep their costs down and leaves them money to concentrate on being as professional as they are.

There are little quirks and things with their system that smugmug would have to adapt to or work around, such as "thrifty output" 4x6's costing 70 cents whereas their "proof" system (of equal quality) charges just 24 cents. And the whole thing about how they only print one photo for each image file you send, not multiple photos of the same file. Smugmug would have to either convince them to accept a whole new system or somehow manage to duplicate photos, and categorize them in folders labeled by print size, etc. etc. It would be quite an under taking, but I'm sure Don would please ALL if he asked WHCC if they were up to that task. Maybe they're too small a company to handle smugmug, or maybe smugmug is too cheesy for WHCC. I really have no idea. But I know it would be a heck of a lot of work.

Take care,
-Matt-