Welcome to my albatross

Moving Pictures

Share with me a journey, would you?

Let me start in 1996, with a hand-wound camera shooting hockey with Ilford 400 black and white, pushed two stops, using a hand-focused lens of no great aperture. That's how I started shooting hockey for sheckels.

I'm a newspaper guy, but sports is my thing.

In what is now 16 years of covering sports, I have shot just about every sport you care to name ... I'm the guy you send when you want a good photo and a good story.

Naturally, as a Canadian sports geek I've chronicled everything from novice D to pro hockey. I've had hockey action shots run in all sorts of papers, sold stuff, you name it.

But there's one barn that I can't seem to get a half-decent picture out of.

Meet my albatross. And here, I shall chronicle my attempt to capture what I consider a functional photo out of this place.

Moving Pictures

That's Border Area Community Arena in St. Stephen, New Brunswick. The above is a generic, grabbed-at-random image from when hometowner Don Sweeney, assistant GM of the Bruins brought the Stanley Cup to town. (For you Canadians, this is BEFORE the Cup was shipped to Newfoundland, whereupon it was dented. Don't blame us.)

Every image, unless noted, is OOC. No post-processing, other than cropping and re-sizing.

So. Where shall I start?

Howabout this picture. Now, every single one of you who has ever worked a picture desk, tweaked an image or otherwise captured a half-decent photo knows the image below sucks. I know it too. That's why this damned rink is my albatross ... because it's darker than the tonsils of Satan. The EXIF on this puppy reads a miserable tale ... ISO 3,200, f2.8, 1/500. It's a good half-stop underexposed. Totally crappy shot. (Oh, once the curves are mangled, and the mid-range salvaged, it's OK for black-and-white print, but that's not what I want.)

Moving Pictures

My lens has been with me forever. It's a Sigma 70-200 f2.8, and I've had it for 10 years. It's been to the shop twice, once to repair a leaf spring, and once for a total rebuild and cleaning. It's put top-quality pics on the front pages of dozens of papers across Canada, put solid hockey shots on the CP wire from WJC games ... it ain't the lens.

Solution No. 1: get in the stands and use fill flash.

1/320, f 2.8, iso 3,200. Motion blur, and don't even get me talking about the colours. (I usually do a manual white balance on the ice.)

Moving Pictures

Well, that was crap-tacular, wasn't it?

OK. How about shooting RAW. Let's try shooting ISO 1,600 and see what RAW does for us, shall we?

First - the original unprocessed .jpg - f 2.8, ISO 3,200, 1/320. Still underexposed, even though I generally shoot 2/3 stop over metering.

Moving Pictures

Here is the converted RAW pic. I almost never use RAW (that's the nature of PJ/newspapers, after all) ... better, but nasty grain ... and still not sharp. Eewg.

Moving Pictures

Now, I know what you're thinking. "This guy can't shoot sports worth beans."

Yeah, I know that's what it looks like ... did I mention this barn was my albatross?

So, here's a relatively at-random image from earlier this year, in a barn with real light - 1/800, f 2.8, 1,600 ISO. I pulled the curves slightly. It's not my best, by far, but more indicative of what I'd consider "publishable" for newsprint. And again, I didn't pull my best. I pulled what I considered indicative.

Moving Pictures

There's a game today at The Pit. I shall try a few more tricks and report back.

johng

I have to admit - what are you after here? Are you looking for advice on how to do better? Are you looking for critique?

Moving Pictures

johng wrote: »

I have to admit - what are you after here? Are you looking for advice on how to do better? Are you looking for critique?

To be honest, I'm going to throw out thoughts and tricks until something works ... suggestions on how to handle damned dark barns would help, though.

I might try a remote strobe tonight.

DoctorIt

Moving Pictures wrote: »

... because it's darker than the tonsils of Satan.

My old friend winger, sadly hasn't posted here in years (if you dig, you'll find a wealth of really nice hockey from her), went through all these trials and frustrations at UMass. The proper Mullins Center was lit OK, but the practice rink was a pit. The only solution she ever found, if I recall correctly, was to get friendly with the staff and place really F-off powerful strobes up in the roof rafters and trigger them remotely.

Moving Pictures

Ok, let's get up to date on this thread, shall we?

I threw some new toys at this blasted rink - a flash cable to move the 580EX flash off-camera. Mounted it on a tripod.

General result? Fail.

Moving Pictures

So I went back the next day with a different plan: move the flash higher. I mounted it above the shooting plane, to avoid reflections.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Moving Pictures

Next up, I await a little present from Amazon, and try playing (as suggested) with some remote strobes ...

Qarik

what body are you using? if money is not an issue..D3s? you can shoot 6400 no problem. Even a D700 might get you what you need at 6400 if you don't blow it up

W.W. Webster

Moving Pictures wrote: »

... sports is my thing

Moving Pictures wrote: »

Now, I know what you're thinking. "This guy can't shoot sports worth beans."

Moving Pictures wrote: »

I didn't pull my best. I pulled what I considered indicative.

Why not "pull your best"? Are you up for it? Or do you seriously expect people to invest their time commenting on images you know to be poor?

Moving Pictures

Qarik wrote: »

what body are you using? if money is not an issue..D3s? you can shoot 6400 no problem. Even a D700 might get you what you need at 6400 if you don't blow it up

I recently upgraded to a 7d, from a 20d. It does 6,400 reasonably well, and I obtain "reasonable" material, but....

W.W. Webster wrote: »

Why not "pull your best"? Are you up for it? Or do you seriously expect people to invest their time commenting on images you know to be poor?

Apples to apples comparison, I guess. Everybody who shoots sports knows that there's "functional" pics, and then there's the "oooOooO" pics. Since I'm not looking to obtain "oOOoOo" pics from this particular rink, just images I consider "to my standards of publishable." So that's what I posted, at quasi-random, for comparison.

The other part of the equation, too, is that I'm hoping that maybe this process is one that might help others. I will find a solution, but I don't know what it is, yet.
I played with remote-triggered strobes today. I haven't taken a good look at 'em yet.

W.W. Webster

Moving Pictures wrote: »

Apples to apples comparison, I guess.

So the answer's no?

Moving Pictures

W.W. Webster wrote: »

So the answer's no?

Put me in a real rink, one that has CHL teams or ECHL teams or even some junior A teams, and I'll turn out wire-worthy images all night long. I'm not asking for help in turning out good images in suitably lit barns. I know how to turn out good images in suitably-lit barns, and have produced images have landed on the sports pages of papers everywhere across Canada, a land where hockey is a religion. Throw me in the old Nanaimo multiplex and I can pull 1/500 at f5 with 800 ISO all night long, for example.

But dude, this thread - since you seem a little incapable of catching its drift - isn't about me showing those kind of pics. This thread is about shooting hockey played in a dingy small-town pit with just enough candlepower to figure out if the person you're sitting next to in the bleachers is the one you came with, and how a 15-year vet might be able to pull something he figures is decent out of it, in hopes he (a) finds a solution and (b) that someone might pull some knowledge out of the process.

That said, I've looked at every strobe-assisted image I took tonight- using a radio trigger - and they're all crap, because 1/250 ain't enough to stop motion. So the best I can do is an off-camera speedlight at shutter speeds greater than 1/250, and likely at ISOs north of 3,200.

Which means this thread can quietly die.

BradfordBenn

Nice to see the Whale represented, even if it is Danbury and not Hartford.

I can understand your pain, I am not sure I know how to fix it other then offer encouragement. I am curious if you have seen if you can put a flash on top of the goal judge's cage or top of the glass, on the audience side of the net.

I personally have found I get better results shooting RAW as I can adjust the exposure with less artifacts than JPG. I am shooting with an XTi, so I can't go higher than ISO1600 so the extended processing time tradeoff is acceptable. I also am not shooting for a deadline.



I am curious if you are going for print, are they doing photostrobes in the catwalk for press you might be able to get access to? Or is the barn in need of a Kraft Hockeyville make over?

austinado16

A few questions.

Have you thought about renting a nicer body with better high ISO? (Maybe you can't afford a $4,500 IDmkIV, but I've seen the unprocessed images from one, in a very poorly lit gymnastics gym and they blew my mind.)
Why not shoot in RAW at all times, process, and then save as jpeg?
I know a zoom is probably handy, but have you tried some primes just for kicks?
Do you process with any noise reduction software (noiseware professional, noise ninja, etc.)?

I'm no pro and I don't know what I'm talking about......I shoot girls gymnastics and most of the gyms are probably lit worse than your ice houses. f2.8 is typically a joke, at least on my 50D. Images are much better with my primes, even though they are just standard primes and not $1,500ea L glass.

Snowgirl

I often shoot in the Princess Louise Park Show Centre in Sussex - primarily horse shows. It's darker than the hubs of hell and badly lit with halogen lights mounted in the rafters (to allow for horse jumping and heavy horse wagons so no one hits the lights). To further complicate matters, the whole place is back-lit by garage doors that may, or may not, be open depending on the prevailing winds, temperature and weather conditions. In other words, it's a lighting nightmare and I'd cheerfully trade you!

I recently got the famed 1DMKIV and it does have phenomenal low light capabilities when shooting raw. The downside of shooting raw is the file size - take a bucket load of memory cards.

A fellow shooter I know from Montreal came down to shoot one event and I worked as his assistant for the week-end. He climbed the rafters and installed several strobes, fired by Pocket Wizards, down the length (200') of the arena. When those puppies went off it was like the first of July fireworks. Surprisngly, the horses that were competing paid NO attention to it. The photos were phenomenal and blew my shots right out of the water. Shows what good lighting - and a fortune in lighting gear - can do.

For those of us with more lowly lighting gear - we make do. I find the higher ISOs really do help a lot. And, I use at least one off-camera flash - either placed on the side or up on a tall tripod.

Moving Pictures

BradfordBenn wrote: »

I can understand your pain, I am not sure I know how to fix it other then offer encouragement. I am curious if you have seen if you can put a flash on top of the goal judge's cage or top of the glass, on the audience side of the net.

This ain't no high-end rink. No goal-judges. A few hundred fans in the barn, so Friday I could poke about and place my (new-to-me) remote strobe just about anywhere.

My issue was the fact the remote strobe (at least, the setup I have) welded me to 1/250. I detest motion blur in hockey shots.

I personally have found I get better results shooting RAW as I can adjust the exposure with less artifacts than JPG. I am shooting with an XTi, so I can't go higher than ISO1600 so the extended processing time tradeoff is acceptable. I also am not shooting for a deadline.

I've left the daily biz behind - for the moment - so my deadlines aren't as ugly. That said, I tried raw off a 30D and didn't see much benefit.

Or is the barn in need of a Kraft Hockeyville make over?

Bingo. There's a new barn coming here in a couple years ...

austinado16 wrote: »

Have you thought about renting a nicer body with better high ISO?

I just upgraded to a 7d for that very reason. It gives me a bit better image, but the problem is that the light is so meagre that unless I'm printing black-and-white, the image isn't up to snuff.

Why not shoot in RAW at all times, process, and then save as jpeg?
I know a zoom is probably handy, but have you tried some primes just for kicks?
Do you process with any noise reduction software (noiseware professional, noise ninja, etc.)?

I may have to try raw to see what the 7D can do.
No suitable primes in the focal length I need - but I'm eyeing some.
Photoshop CS5 at work, Gimp 2.6 at home. The issue isn't noise, so much as just pallid colours and a touch of grain.

Surprisngly, the horses that were competing paid NO attention to it. The photos were phenomenal and blew my shots right out of the water. Shows what good lighting - and a fortune in lighting gear - can do.
For those of us with more lowly lighting gear - we make do. I find the higher ISOs really do help a lot. And, I use at least one off-camera flash - either placed on the side or up on a tall tripod.

And that's why I'm working through this publicly. Figure I can fart around until I find something that works reasonably well, and others can maybe learn from my trial-and-swearing.

pipster

I will try to help with your albatross which in reality is not a dimly lit arena but a lack of knowledge in making strobes/flashes work for you.

If using strobes/flash ambient light should only be used for focusing. If you can get the camera to focus you are at least half way to an acceptable photo.

To stop motion blur and or ghosting as it is sometimes called you have to get the strobe/flash to be the primary light source.

You want the flash duration to stop the action not the shutter speed.

Use manual mode and set your camera so that if you were not to use the strobes/flash the photo would be at 'least' two stops underexposed

Once you have that done you can experiment using ETTL or set the strobes/flash manually to get enough light for the picture.

When setting the strobes/flash the histogram is your friend. Not the photo on the LCD screen.

This should get you started on the path to using strobes/flash for dimly lit arenas.

Moving Pictures

pipster wrote: »

I will try to help with your albatross which in reality is not a dimly lit arena but a lack of knowledge in making strobes/flashes work for you.

OK ...

If using strobes/flash ambient light should only be used for focusing. If you can get the camera to focus you are at least half way to an acceptable photo.

Which is what I was doing.

To stop motion blur and or ghosting as it is sometimes called you have to get the strobe/flash to be the primary light source.

Which is what I had ...

You want the flash duration to stop the action not the shutter speed.

But ... and maybe this is where I go astray - 1/250s can't stop motion sufficiently.

Use manual mode and set your camera so that if you were not to use the strobes/flash the photo would be at 'least' two stops underexposed

OK ... I was working about a stop under, maybe a stop and a third. Note this was the first time I've used remote strobes for sports. (Done it for weddings/studio stuff back in the day I did such things on the side of the news biz.)

When setting the strobes/flash the histogram is your friend. Not the photo on the LCD screen

That's pretty much a given ...

So my question - unless I park my ETTL 580 EX off-camera using a cord, how can I beat that 1/250 sec limit?

I've got a peewee game (way slower) tonight, and I'm willing to play/experiment after I get my "safety" shots.

pipster

Moving Pictures wrote: »

But ... and maybe this is where I go astray - 1/250s can't stop motion sufficiently.

So my question - unless I park my ETTL 580 EX off-camera using a cord, how can I beat that 1/250 sec limit?

I agree that 1/250 second cannot stop motion blur sufficiently. That is the reason you set your exposure at least two stops underexposed so that the strobe/flash duration can stop the motion blur.

The question is. Do you want the shutter speed to stop the action or are you willing to let the flash duration stop the action?

You can go the HSS route and raise your shutter speed with a cord or even Pocket Wizards but that method is very inefficient in getting enough light from the flash to have very much range.

If you are willing to let the flash duration stop the motion then you can beat the 1/250 sec limit.

The duration of a strobe/flash is not set by the shutter speed of the camera.

The duration of the strobe/flash is considerably faster than 1/250 sec.

The reason you are seeing motion blur when using a strobe/flash at a shutter speed of 1/250 or slower is because the sensor is seeing to much ambient light.

Underexpose for the ambient and let the strobe/flash be the primary light source.

ian408

Did you say you were using one light source and it was a 580? If so, I think you'd do a lot better with at least two. Also, how are lighting? Direct flash? Bounce?

I would not rely on ETTL in this situation. I think you'll be disappointed in the result at least some of the time. Go manual. Also, if you're mounting lights where you won't have control over them, please use safety cables to keep them from falling on someone or something.

Good luck with the 7D. Post some results.

aktse

There are albatrosses all over the world. If you think the rink/court in your area is horrible, there are plenty worse (think school gyms and local neighborhood rinks). These rinks/gyms even turn off lights to save on the electricity bills. In order to shoot sports in a place with horrible light, you have two options. 1) camera with amazing low light capabilities (high ISO and fast accurate AF) and/or fast prime lenses + noise reduction if necessary. 2) add light

If option #1 doesn’t cut it for you, move to option #2. However, I would never add lights without rink/gym permission in writing, clearing it with the refs/league in advance in writing too and plenty of liability insurance including combing through the fine print that saying it’s okay to strap on lights over people’s heads.

From reading this thread, I think you need study up on the basics of flash photography. You have tons of photography/sports experience, but you lack knowledge in lighting. You need understand the synch speed of your camera and perhaps high speed synch if you go that path. Also, you need to know how the physics of how to stop action with flash or how to create motion blur with light, etc.

For lights, you have two main options to the light entire rink. You require good triggers like PWs and 1) four speedlites 2) strobes like a set of ranger quadras or some ABs

For speedlites, I seen people use brewer bracket with a 1/8" mono jumper that triggers both flashes. I would avoid TTL/HSS and stick with manual mode with lights for each end (four at a minimum) with battery packs. Actually, I would also go with a two sets of rangers too or four bees too.

For lit hockey photos, I personally like the work of dgrinner tjk60: example

This is a thread on lighting indoor sports lighting that you might find useful.

I personally pick option #1 and use noise reduction when necessary for my caves.

Moving Pictures

OK - I think the run of the trend here is accurate: my skills with remote-triggered flashes isn't up to snuff, which is fair, since I've never done anything more than run with the ETTL on-camera or marginally removed.

Couple things to note, both gear-related.

One: I've bought a simple remote radio-trigger strobe, and won't be able to obtain much more than, say, a second trigger for a cheap-ass flash I might find in a second-hand store.

Second The max synch speed of the D7 is 1/250, btw: so with anything other than ETTL flashes, I'm stuck to 1/250. There's too much distance to run with the optical trigger system built into the Canon 580Ex system ( have access to a second 580EX: it's a company gizmo.)

Tonight, I tried the suggestion of shooting manual and setting for two stops under... tweaked the single remote flash for a reasonable histogram. I didn't shoot a mass of pics with that setting, but did obtain the one attached here. I cropped it and tweaked the curves a bit, but it was underexposed and the puck was off-frame (I shot single-shot only, as the flash can't recycle at the pace of the multi-shot drive.) I only shot, maybe a half-dozen pics as I still needed to get a publishable-ish image and the action was in the end opposite where I set the strobe (wouldncha figure.)

My guess is the person who suggested "more flashes" is bang on. Also, as I learned from this shoot: do not put one's flash on the other side of a net ... Ooops.

Questions: Until I shell out for a second radio receiver ($20 plus shipping) and find a spare flash, is there merit in using the radio trigger to trigger my 580EX, and set the second on optical trigger? I'd not be able to separate 'em by much. I have a basketball game to shoot in a fairly reasonable venue Tuesday evening, and will dedicate a half to shooting strobe-assisted - so I'd welcome tips/suggestions.

Moving Pictures

PS: flash was shot direct, power was 1/2, from a distance of circa 35 metres from the net.

I could set up an umbrella stand right next to the glass near ice-level (this ain't a populated rink) - worth a shot?

ian408

I would not shoot with an optical trigger. All it takes is someone in the stands and you miss the game winning goal.

Spend time learning about flash photography. Especially with small flash. If you need more, look into Lumopro. It's a functionally equivalent flash that's inexpensive and works with Canon or Nikon.

I noticed your shots are mighty blue too. Might want to look into fixing that.

Here's an example fix.

Moving Pictures

I'm pretty OK with flash in studio and PJ settings. It's this remote-strobe thing that's new terrain.

Will try something tonight. Basketball, different barn. See what shapes.