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2012 Rookies through Masters...
M38A1
Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
I'm no expert, not a professional, nor have I had a camera around my neck for as many years as some. I've not traveled the world, visited exotic places, served in the military or studied the "masters" more than the links presented (which are appreciated). Yet one thing I do know - Street/PJ is the only sub-forum on Dgrin which is not fun to visit anymore. Every other sub-forum is upbeat, fun, and energetic. This area however has turned into a street fight.
Street/PJ appears to be the only sub-forum which the majority of comments focus on a critique. Where is this printed in the birdseed that every image posted has to have a critique? Can't everyone just accept the fact that some post here because they are proud of their shot within the wide and varying definition of Street/PJ? I think we all have a good idea of who's capable of what, who has learned, who has grown and developed a style, as well as those who are continuing to grow and develop. I think the majority of people understand the differing skill levels, and encourage growth which, in my opinion I can see in many of us. Yet there are some who don't recognize the difference between those just starting out and those with decades or a lifetime of experience.
I don't shoot award winning images, but I try to do what I can at my skill level - which is quite apparent not on the same level as others. Yet the continued pounding as if we are all rookies instead of the "professionals" or "masters" has run a lot of us off. Those who have been here for some time know who's left the party as a result. Some here simply fail to recognize there are differing skill levels and interpretations of Street/PJ.
This corner of the world almost requires a suit of armor to play.
Kudos are good.
Constructive criticism is good.
Application of a single or narrow standard as to what Street/PJ is against a group with a wide range of skill levels? Not good.
My suggestion moving forward into 2012 is simple. If you like an image, say so. Praise can be powerful in motivation. If you don't like an image, think about the person who posted that and take into consideration they put effort into that shot or they wouldn't have posted it. Take into consideration their prior work and where you think they are in their development as a photographer and address accordingly. Take into consideration the positive aspects as well as the ones which in your opinion could be improved. And remember - great teachers understand differing skill levels and abilities, and address comments to that students level.
I surmise with this approach, many who lurk will come back out of the woodwork, this sub-forum will continue to grow, and we will all continue to develop our abilities in this dynamic genre'.
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Street/PJ appears to be the only sub-forum which the majority of comments focus on a critique. Where is this printed in the birdseed that every image posted has to have a critique? Can't everyone just accept the fact that some post here because they are proud of their shot within the wide and varying definition of Street/PJ? I think we all have a good idea of who's capable of what, who has learned, who has grown and developed a style, as well as those who are continuing to grow and develop. I think the majority of people understand the differing skill levels, and encourage growth which, in my opinion I can see in many of us. Yet there are some who don't recognize the difference between those just starting out and those with decades or a lifetime of experience.
I don't shoot award winning images, but I try to do what I can at my skill level - which is quite apparent not on the same level as others. Yet the continued pounding as if we are all rookies instead of the "professionals" or "masters" has run a lot of us off. Those who have been here for some time know who's left the party as a result. Some here simply fail to recognize there are differing skill levels and interpretations of Street/PJ.
This corner of the world almost requires a suit of armor to play.
Kudos are good.
Constructive criticism is good.
Application of a single or narrow standard as to what Street/PJ is against a group with a wide range of skill levels? Not good.
My suggestion moving forward into 2012 is simple. If you like an image, say so. Praise can be powerful in motivation. If you don't like an image, think about the person who posted that and take into consideration they put effort into that shot or they wouldn't have posted it. Take into consideration their prior work and where you think they are in their development as a photographer and address accordingly. Take into consideration the positive aspects as well as the ones which in your opinion could be improved. And remember - great teachers understand differing skill levels and abilities, and address comments to that students level.
I surmise with this approach, many who lurk will come back out of the woodwork, this sub-forum will continue to grow, and we will all continue to develop our abilities in this dynamic genre'.
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Comments
The OP, in the original post, says something like "critiques welcome." Otherwise, it's hands off?
// richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
richardmanphoto on Facebook and Instagram
So what are your opinions of the original post?
// richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
richardmanphoto on Facebook and Instagram
My point is, it takes time to understand the dynamics of this sub-forum and specifically getting to know and understand each other based on studying their body of work. To do so takes time to look, interact and then provide meaningful comment - not just a "wtf?" or "snapshot" comment. New members who come in as if they are God's answer to Street/PJ and name drop worse than a politician haven't taken time to understand the person behind the images here. If they would take time to look at a body of work by that person in order to gauge where they are in a continuum of sorts, then the responses could be so much more valuable. Instead, we are lectured as to everything wrong with an image without saying much about the positives as they relate to the "experts and masters". We're simply all not at that level.
I'm not so thin-skinned as to be unable to stand a critique. But don't critique my work or others with an attitude that we don't know jack about what we are doing. It's annoying, condescending, and doesn't provide anything positive to those who are really trying to make this work.
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I totally agree with Richard's comment that this is a public forum, and I see the point of the forum as a place to post and learn.
However, I agree tht we have reached a point where food is dripping off the walls. And I think one way o clean it up is to stop the "this isn't a street photo" BS that has, unfortunately, become a part of daily life here.
I have long wanted to see the name I the forum changed to "The Real World," but I know that won't happen. But Richard has been pretty loosey goosey about what gets posted, so I suggest we think of this as the real world forum, and drop the damn street pretentions.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
I am in agreement with most, if not all of it. And as a long time forum participant, I have not liked this direction. I receded into the background just as the Occupy shots surfaced. At that point, including those Occupy posts, things got very political and ascerbic. Opinions were rampant, but rarely about the photographs.
Perhaps the most astute observation you present is that it was no longer fun to be a part of this forum. And if it is not fun, people will not participate, and thus not learn.
I want to learn and I want to have fun doing it. That's why photography is my chosen hobby.
I try to suggest some technical aspect that I believe will benefit the poster or defend someone's post that I believe has merit.
If I have insulted someone unintentionally I apologize. That said, if a poster has a thin skin perhaps they shouldn't post.
This forum is pretty tame: try the X10 forum on dpr to see a how far a forum can go
As I mentioned earlier, this is a public forum and we really only have a few basic rules that we ask people to observe. Beyond that, the forum really is what the members make of it. I would like to see less contention and more genuinely constructive criticism. And I would like to have fun as well. I don't see any reason why civilized people can't disagree without being disagreeable. But I can't impose any of that--it needs to come from everyone.
Since I posted some Occupy Boston shots I want to be sure my intent in doing so is very clear. I do not come here for political posturing. I come here and post in this forum and others on this site picutres that I take that I hope will begin to measure up to the generally high quality of shots that are posted in here and for constructive advice on how to IMPROVE them. My political views are fairly refined after 55 years on this earth and those views are NOT trying to be represented by my photos. On the other hand my photo skills are far less refined and thus why I am here to learn and grow.
I take photographs because I love to do so, no other reason.
If my posts caused any of the disagreement that seems to be happening here currently I sincerely apologize. I will not stop posting photos that are what I consider PJ, of political candidates or thought provoking events (such as Occupy), but understand they are posted here for photographic value, (or lack thereof ), nothing more.
Hear, hear! The word "pretentions" sums up the problem. In spite of Richard's avowed lack of interest in taxonomy, the title of the forum establishes taxonomy. It's a fun forum, but as long as it has a name like "Street & PJ" questions about categories are going to come up. From what I've read, I'm not the only one who's raised them, and our moderator was concerned enough about taxonomy to move my pictures of birds, taken from the street, to a different forum.
So, I second BD's motion. How about changing the name and dropping the street pretentions. "The Real World" is pretty broad; those birds were in the real world. But a title that emphasizes the word "documentary" might describe what I see here.
As far as critiques are concerned, the important thing is to avoid criticism that come across as ad hominem. The problem is that to some people their photographs are as precious as their babies, and any criticism of a photograph seems like a personal attack. But as Richard pointed out, if you're that sensitive you have no business posting on a public forum. Beyond that, I'd love to see more critiques from BD and others who've been at this for a long time. I've been at this since 1953 and I learn something new every time I see a serious criticism of one of my pictures. It's called "learning."
www.FineArtSnaps.com
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It's a logical error to assume that because I said I'd like to see more critiques from BD and others with long experience you conclude that I think people with less experience can't produce valid critiques. Evidently you've missed the point that: (1) people with long experience are more likely to have wider and more varied experience; especially true with BD who has a professional background in photojournalism as well as long experience. But, (2) native ability in an artform doesn't depend on age or experience, though effectiveness in an artform usually is enhanced by study and experience. I'm always interested in anyone's opinions regarding my work, though for reasons that should be obvious, I'm usually more interested in opinions that come from those who've demonstrated they know what they're talking about than opinions from those who haven't. On the other hand, I've picked up some really worthwhile ideas from people with no experience. Sometimes not knowing that you can't do something leads you to do it anyway, and shows people with all that experience that it can be done. Evidently you missed the last two sentences in my third paragraph.
You've lost me completely with your second paragraph. Which people's prior work as a body should I learn about before posting? The work of people as a body? Or the body of work of a particular individual? Who would be "the intended audience" to which you refer? Are you talking about critiques or pictures?
As far as your last paragraph is concerned, Scott, I think I've answered it.
www.FineArtSnaps.com
As far as the experience level goes in critiques, I'll agree experience is a good indicator and benchmark. Yet many of your critiques are just flat condescending in tone as if you are the expert and we don't know anything. A significant number of your critiques have been "snapshot" and nothing else, which provides little constructive input as to what might be good, what might be improved, or things to consider next time from your point of view. Maybe it's just your style of writing. "Snapshot" does no one any good. When you take the time to understand where the people in this sub-forum are in their journey, you can provide better comment which is valuable to that person, thus growing their skill level. That is teaching at its best and we all learn from one another.
Certainly there are great masters and experts out there, and you obviously are a student of those individuals. Yet here, and I speak for myself on this, you continually try comparing apples and oranges. These masters spent their entire working career creating these images. Tens of thousands of exposures were probably expended to see the small number of great works by these people in the books referenced. We for the most part are not professional photographers allocating every waking moment to these shots. Is it something to possibly strive to achieve? Sure. But don't drag the submission into a topical diversion into how the image fails to meet your definition of what Street/PJ is supposed to be. Remember - it's wide open here.
Where many have heartburn, myself included, is when you try to pin down your definition of Street/PJ as you think it should be. This sub-forum has done quite well over time with a wide definition of what Street/PJ is. Your continued attempt to pin down specific criteria is basically unrealistic in a forum such as this. That would be akin to saying in the Wildlife sub-forum only mammals are allowed, no fowl, no fish. Or saying Landscape can only be mountain shots, no streams, no lakes. There just isn't a way to pin down what Street/PJ should be constrained to other than general terms. Your posting of the three birds and calling that Street/PJ was a tad bit comical, and I surmise you as well as the rest of us knew it really belongs in Wildlife.
In the past, we have had a considerably larger number of people participating from a submission and comment perspective. Those who have been here for an extended period have taken time to understand each other and provide comment which makes sense and is directed to that user based on the knowledge of where they stand. Comment has been cordial, friendly and upbeat with positives and room for improvement. Smiley's abounded. The boundaries of Street/PJ were generally accepted and the submissions fit in those boundaries.
So I'll suggest you simply take time to understand the people behind the images and their body of work, recognize the differences in skill levels, and take the time to provide meaningful constructive input with your years of experience.
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There was a time when over exposure was a black frame. Now it's a white one. To many of us the world is upside down, digital has helped turn it.
I hear what you're are saying and frankly I don't put stock in the "masters" (even tho' they deserve more than I give). It might be because when I was young, we dissed people with cams around their necks as Japanese tourists (that's just me)
bd is an educator, his books are his stock and trade; Many of us are applicators - but we can benefit from each other and have fun doing it.
We'll have to rehabilitate Russ, an inch at a time. He has improved; his cull baloney has been replaced by ? (BTW I don't disagree with his opinion, but it has softened)...
Regardless of one's skill level, that person doesn't want to hear....without any other clarifying remarks....that most of his work should be summarily culled. Nor can that person be expected to be pleased when a response to his posting is a simple " WTF ' or " Snapshot ". I can't fathom a rational reason for leaving such an insulting response....and having the audacity to deem it a critique.
I've been fairly vocal in the past about one individual who showed up in the last several months that has proven to be a very disruptive influence....for a great many reasons. It's obvious that this person does not respect the structure ( including the name ) of our forum and has little regard for those he considers to be less educated to street photography than he considers himself to be. Unless this person takes a perverse joy in being obnoxious, he should recognize that he will be happier leaving our group. Chances are great that our forum would then return to the harmonious, respectful, and helpful state that we used to enjoy.
Tom
A common suggestion from the best photographers I've spoken to, even to the point of admonition in some cases, is to become "visually literate" by spending large amounts of time studying the best work of others across a wide spectrum of genres, and to also look at the work of classic painters (Goya cited most often). This above all else, except actually putting in the time taking pictures, has improved my skills and my eye as a photographer. At least that's been my personal experience.
First, I always go to a poster's web site or home page, if he's listed one, to try to understand his background before I post a critique. You suggest I should roll back through pages in Street & PJ to get a feel for the poster's background when he has no web, but there simply isn't time for something like that.
You say, "Most of us have been here quite a while, and through seeing the work of others, we have come to learn and understand where each other is in their journey to become better photographers in Street/PJ." I hate to say it, but that sounds pretty cliquish to me. If Street & PJ is intended to be a restricted clique then it ought to be passworded and membership ought to require an application form and acceptance by a board of review. I don't think that's the intent. Regarding, jaw-dropping images, you're right, it happens, and David just posted one of those that got faint praise from several experienced people.
With regard to your second paragraph, I'll have to say, "mea culpa." Yes, too many of my critiques have been snapshots. I could give you some reasons for that, but instead I'll try to avoid snapshots in the future. On the other hand, some pictures are so bad that there's simply no way to explain why they're bad.
Regarding your take on the masters, yes, the published output from most of the masters is tiny compared with the number of pictures they actually shot. I suspect that's one reason BD has starting using Magnum Contact Sheets in his course. If you look at any master's contact sheets you'll see that he was a master at culling. People like Elliott Erwitt don't put their failures on display. I've said it before and I'll say it again: painters need to learn when to stop and photographers need to learn when to cull. It's something beginners need to start to learn from the very beginning. I see people on here who are excellent, experienced photographers who don't know when to cull. I do the same thing sometimes, but I kick myself when I realize I've done it.
As far as being "wide open here" is concerned, we've already had that discussion in a couple earlier posts on this thread. BD has the right idea. If it's wide open, let's reflect that in the name of the forum. At the moment, the name doesn't imply that it's wide open. Changing the name would eliminate the argument.
Your paragraph that starts out "In the past..." goes back to the clique thing. "If you haven't been here for an extended period you're an outsider." I was mayor of a fairly small town for eight years Scott, and I'm familiar with that idea in spades, but it doesn't hold up for a web forum. Old members drop out. New members join. Time doesn't let you back up.
I'll try to be less abrupt in critiques, but there still will be those for whom any criticism of their work is a personal attack.
www.FineArtSnaps.com
If my postings came across as this sub-forum being click-ish, I suppose I'm not a very good writer as well. Yes, there are a variety of personalities here, and I'll be the first to admit I was horribly intimidated for some time. Yet after a period, I began to understand the diverse group of people behind the images through both their images and postings. I'm not sure how many of the others feel, and I may be in left field, but I'm of the opinion I could call up any member here if I were in their town and meet for a beer and have a wonderful chat, or go shoot something with them. And yes, that includes you.
On a somewhat related note, I've always likened the ideal atmosphere for an on-line forum as if we are walking into the site owners or Moderators living room virtually and that's how one should conduct themselves. Before I post, I try - not always successfully - to ask myself "...would I have this conversation in person in the owners living room"? That has been a great guiding measure which seems to work well.
I'm looking forward to 2012 with everyone here and I know there is a tremendous amount of experience to draw on and share. I just have to believe we can all get along and make this work if everyone works at it.
Now - where are those invitations for that beer...
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Now, I hope that's over. Is there an internet way for a group hug?