Tere - First Winter Shoot -- Let the Beatings Begin

Bilsen · February 6, 2012

These are from my first winter shoot experimenting indoors with my seppelights (Canon 580EX and 430 EX). I KNOW I have a ways to go but I'll gladly listen to suggestions.

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VayCayMom · February 7, 2012

I don't know enough about indoor lighting, but what stands out to me are the out dated props. That piano with the wood trim which I think my mother called early American, is the polar opposite of her sexy pose. Maybe a white sheet over the couch and forget the rest might have less distracting. She has some great assets , too much other stuff competing for the viewers attention, but I am sure some will say, what piano? lol

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Thanks Trudy. I'd love to have had a grand piano for those poses but it just wasn't in the room.

I also think a sheet on that couch would look worse (wrinkles and such).

My next shoot will have the benefit of white and/or gray seamless paper (that just got here) so there will be other things for me to screw up

in this, the winter of my experimental discontent.

Thanks also for helping me avoid a shutout.

novicesnapper · February 7, 2012

Lol, no beatings from this guy, only suggestions, don't worry my time is coming lol I'm sure.
I think if you dodge the shadows on some (backdrop/walls), to even them or blend them, where the flash created them. A lovely model and they seem to detract from her imo.

You might also clean up the face of the couch, it's rather distracting to me.

I actually liked the one one the piano, quite sultry. :whipok, end of beating lol

On the other hand, the dark smokey looks of the model with the black corset and teddy, splashed with red is quite nice, the eyes go straight to her uh assets lol. Lovely eyes also. Lol, couldn't resist the smilies by the way. Make sure you save this gals number, looking forward to see more of you're work with her. Thanks John

divamum · February 7, 2012

+1 to what Trudy said.

Also, what modifiers are you using on the flashes? Notice how hard the shadows are on her face and under her chin (as well as sometimes on the bgs) - it almost looks like you used bare flash, or very small modifiers (or the lights were far away?)

Btw, those big wicker chairs can make great backgrounds for shots if you go in close - I know you were doing full body poses so that wasn't quite what you had in mind, but they can really be interesting for head & 3/4 looks

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Thanks Novice.

Theresa is a multi-shoot model (I think this was our 5th) so she's not going away. You can see her full set of outdoor galleries at http://bilsen.zenfolio.com/Tere

My next goal (on the 19th with Vanessa) will be to kill those darn shadows.

By the way, DIvaMum here's a BTS shot of the chair setup. Obviously, I have some adjustments to make next time. I just ordered a 46" Photek Softlighter and a couple of grids so I'll have more (and possibly better) options next shoot.

novicesnapper · February 7, 2012

Uh wow John, thanks. The bokeh and the hair, DOF, her expression, just wow. I think I really like the fact you're trying new stuff, and you're sharing them with us and some of us are learning along with you. Thank you sir.

divamum · February 7, 2012

Thoughts....

- move further away from the bg. You're always going to get nasty shadows lighting that close to the background.

- my other suggestion in that scenario would be to raise the key up higher - shining down on your model from above- and then fill the shadows that creates from underneath with reflectors or another flash. Basically, a clamshell setup (either straight ahead or from the side - modified clamshell from the side can be really pretty if it's done well). I would possibly also in that space try bouncing off the wall or ceiling + reflectors and/or fill from another direction - that's what I sometimes have to do in my similarly tight-quarters. It's harder to control when the light is bouncing around everywhere, but the beauty is that flash bounced off a wall or ceiling becomes a HUGE, beautiful, free softbox

- One final thing Nik once mentioned to me for small quarters: light the background, but then use SMALLER modifiers on the subject. Sounds counterintuitive, but the bg light increases the sense of space, and the more controlled light on the face becomes more predictable. Kind of the exact opposite of what I say above, but I've found both can work depending on the effect you want

ETA: My latest find. Sadly, even though I ordered it in hope, shipping from China across the Chinese New Year meant it arrived to late to use for the two shoots I had recently, but I think I'm gonna love it. $30 on eBay

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Novice, I never mind being the sacraficial guines pig on here because the C&C is always dead on AND I always figure there are 5 other people learning from watching me get torched. That frame of Vanessa is a DIRECT result of some very critical C&C from the group on here at the beginning of last summer. By the end of the season, I was shooting Vanessa like that.

Diva, thanks for the ideas. Such a simple thing like moving the chair away from the wall would have made a huge difference.:bash That small modiifier on the subject does sound exactly backwards but I'll give it a shot. Next shoot I'm planning to go with dark gray seamless, lighting the BKG with a gelled 430EX and a 1/8 Grid, then lighting Vanessa with the Softlighter. We'll see how badly I can screw that up.

One other wrinkle, this room has a florescent overhead light that I can't turn off so I have to meter the flashes to exclude all ambient light. Luckily, my L-358 tells me when I've gotten rid of all ambient so I can stay as low power as I can get away with once the % hits 100.

divamum · February 7, 2012

You need to keep the smaller light source very CLOSE to the subject to make it work - from too far back you just get the same harsh shadows and the same lack of control. It's all fairly case-by-case, as you can imagine....

novicesnapper · February 7, 2012

Well I certainly appreciate learning with you.

Hackbone · February 7, 2012

I think your shadows are brutal for the feminine form that you are trying to depict as sultry and soft. Part of it I think is your choice of lighting. I have a feeling the light might be softer with the umbrella flash turned around as reflective light rather than shoot thru. The reason being I think it would cause a larger light source which generally is softer. Also get it as close to the subject as possible, just out of frame. I'm assuming the 430 is your fill and generally it should be on the same side as the main but closer to you. You might be able to get enough fill by bouncing it off the ceiling as Zeltsman use to do. Again these are just general statements. The indoor posing is campy for my taste. Too harsh and doesn't show off the S curve of the female form. You seem to be struggling with her in the posing.

The outside shot of the lady is just super. Your shadow edges are soft and not as harsh as the ones indoor. Body parts need to have a purpose when you put them somewhere and her hand in her hair just adds to the mood.

In the first indoor one she seems to be tuning her ears or not now dear I have a headache.

The second one just looks painful and the back of the hand is a no no especially with the claw grip.

Three seems awkard and the hand at her waist seems to be coping a feel.

Four doesn't give me a femine feeling. The legs seem awkard.

Five is a great start for the female S curve. Bring that knee over more and touch the couch more to show off the booty. Watch the back of that hand.

Six seems scrunched up and arm pits are not my favorite part. Off subject I think the sexist part of a woman is the area under her chin down to her neck with her head raised.......that triangle area under the chin.......drives me crazy.

Hope this wasn't too harsh.

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Hack -- Shall I mark you down as undecided then?

rofl

Seriously, you KNOW better than to think you're being harsh and you also know I'll listen (most courteously of course) and then disagree where I feel it appropriate. For example, we have a total disagreement on the feel of # 1 which I see as fairly soft and a bit "come hither".

That said, if you recall I started off last May or so with similar C&C from you, Diva, Bryce and a few others and I like to think the shot of Vanessa was the culmination of those little tiffs.

Anyway, I've got 5 more winter shoots lined up through March and this experimental time is when I need all of you to be as brutal as necessary. I'm trying to stretch here and that doesn't happen without a muscle spasm or two.

Hackbone · February 7, 2012

OK!! Hey, where was the session? If in a home why not use the bedroom?

Qarik · February 7, 2012

for starters..you need a WAAAY bigger unbrellas to soften that light..try something in the 45 in range. 2nd..get rid that bare flash. The shadows are teh 1st thing that kill these images

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

My winter quarters are in the bridal suite of a friends' catering establishment. There is one large room, one smaller (dressing) room and, if no parties are going on, a natural light ballroom with large floor to ceiling windows.

In the room are the couch, piano and white chair you saw. I will be putting up a seamless support and white or gray seamless paper that just arrived. Other than some mirrors, that's the "studio".
You can see a bit of it in the BTS frame upthread.

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Hi Qarik. Was hoping you'd drop by.

We agree about the shadows. A large point of my winter exercise is for me learn how to get rid of them with my speedlights. I have a 46" Photek Softlighter on it's way, hopefully arriving before the 19th. By the way, that's not a bare flash but the diffuser on it is really small.

Thanks for commenting and please stay with me over the next 2 months (and next summer of course).

divamum · February 7, 2012

In #1 I didn't even really think about her expression because of the humungoid shadow of her left arm (camera right) on her face dominating. Content/emotion can of course trump technique, but sometimes it's the other way round too..

Btw, why DO you use such a small umbrella? 45" and 60" shoothrus aren't expensive and will give way softer light. The Photek can be used as a shoothru OR bounce brolly as well as a quasi-softbox, btw - you are going to LOVE that thing. I use mine more than any other modifier I have, because it's just so versatile.

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Diva,

First, a question. How best would I relight # 1 to get that image without the facial shadow??

As for my gear, remember, I'm an outdoor shooter and those umbrellas are all I needed outside where I shoot through them for fill with Old Sol as my main and falloff isn't that large not rhe BKG that close.

This indoor stuff is all brand new to me and I can't/won't spend the money on true strobes this year so I'm working on becoming the speedlight master. I have heard so many good things about the Softlighter that I already think I might add another one next fall. I'll definitely take it when I go back outside in the spring but I need to get 10lbs worth of ankle weights when that happens.

With that said, I enjoyed playing around in Teres' shoot and I have Vanessa, Cindy and Brooke all lined up. Since they are all multi repeat models who know me from outdoors, they are willing to help me out with no pressure TF shoots. I migt have more trepidations if I was trying this with a new model where I feel much more obligated to give them port ready images.

I'm looking forward to frustrating myself half to death in the next 8 weeks.

Hackbone · February 7, 2012

On #1 bring you light more on a butterfly pattern. You came in over her left arm then the shadow.

John if you want a bigger light make a 4x6 frame out of PVC with a white shower curtain stretched over it then put your umbrella behind that and shoot thru the PVC/shower curtain. Dean Collins, the master of lighting, used to do that with staggering results.

zoomer · February 7, 2012

Simplify things to start with.
Inside the fundamentals are the same as outside. Non distracting backgrounds....outside it is trees and garbage cans....inside it is shadows...stray hairs etc.
Natural relaxed poses from the model.
Start with one nice soft light and grow from there (from above and the side)......move your subject far enough away from the background so no shadows show up on your background.
If you are going to use a background light put it on the opposite side of your main so there is some light on both sides....this can either be a light on the background or a light from behind on the model to give her some rim light and some on her hair....not a strong light if you use it for backlight....can be strong if you use it to light the background.
Get that working for you....then add another light if you feel you need one. Try bouncing your lights off the walls in the room, instead of pointing them at her, if you only have hard lights.

I am not a studio guy but one light is usually all I use.....I don't have the energy to wrestle shadows.

Put your energy into where you are going to shoot her....and interacting with the model to get a nice natural look....keep the light simple....make sure she is the subject in the frame...no distractions.

Bilsen · February 7, 2012

Thanks again for the tips Zoomer.

If I have a specific talent at all it's that I usually have a good rapport with my models. that's why you see some of them so often. Of course, it could be that I'm too old and ugly to be a threat to a 20 something.

As I said, my plans for the next shoot are the Photek Softlighter as the key and either a snooted or gridded 430EX on the BKG, maybe gelled to change the colors. You'll know how it went in about two weeks. Actually, you'll probably tell ME how it went.

zoomer · February 7, 2012

remember to leave some space between your model and the background.....like in your chair shot....if you were 15 feet from the wall at F4....that has a chance of working...

divamum · February 7, 2012

Hackbone wrote: »

On #1 bring you light more on a butterfly pattern. You came in over her left arm then the shadow.

Exactly as I suggested above

Get the main higher, then fill the shadows (which are being cast downward) with reflectors and/or another light.

Suggestion:

Do your next shoot with ONE flash. In the softlighter. Positioned as close to the model as is possible without it actually being in shot. Go get a big piece of foamboard to use as a reflector if you don't already have an actual reflector (it'll set you back all of $5

Or one of those foldable car windshield thingies (another whopping $5).

Try one set with that light at 45* to the model, reflector on the opposite side.

Try one set with that single light behind you, way up high, with the reflector on the floor (you might have to stick to 3/4 to make that work)

Try one set with the light up high but the models side, using the reflector to get the most pleasing fill.

THEN try adding the second light. Once you really start to "see" where the light is falling, this all gets much easier....

Bilsen · February 8, 2012

Thanks again Diva.

My next shoot is on the 19th so I have some time to play IF the softlighter gets here soon. I'll have some more frames for another beating after that.

Ed911 · February 8, 2012

JohnGalt_ny wrote: »

Thanks again Diva. My next shoot is on the 19th so I have some time to play IF the soft-lighter gets here soon. I'll have some more frames for another beating after that.

John,

One tip from me. You have your umbrella too close to the flash. Move the umbrella out to the end of the shaft, that way the flash will fill the umbrella and create a larger, softer light. It will also create softer shadows. As you have it there, you have created about the smallest light possible from the combo.

Love your outdoor model shot. If she had sharp eyes, the wow factor would be doubled. She is beautiful, and you have a very nice image of her. One thing that you might try...and I'm not saying you did this, but don't compose your shot...focusing on the eyes and then recompose for the body shot. Doing this, when using a very fine focal plane, like you have here, will shift the focal plane so that instead of being parallel to the point of intended focus, it winds up bisecting the image in the center of the subject, or there abouts, leaving the eyes a bit soft.

Also, and this is just because I can't tell from your picture, make sure that your umbrella is properly mounted, in that it should be point upward when the flash is vertical. It appears that you have it that way...but, I know when I first tried umbrellas...I had them upside down.

...

I won't go into what others have already advised you on...lol...

Hope this helps. Nice work...keep trying...let us see some more of your model friends.

Bilsen · February 8, 2012

Thanks Ed.

I appreciate the added tips and I'm keeping little cards with all of them.

For the record, i do use the umbrellas correctly but 'twas not always thus.

BTW, you can see ALL my model friends at my Zenfolio site. They're all there when you have the time and ennui together.

rofl

Bilsen · February 9, 2012

OKAYYYYYYYYY !!!!!

The new Softlighter and grids came in yesterday so I have a week to figure out how best to use them.

I also have gotten some suggestions on another board that indoors I should use the umbrellas in bounce mode rather than shoot through. Also, from looking at the BTS image, (as Ed pointed out) I need to do a better job of getting the flash to fill the umbrella by changing the distance from the flash to the umbrella.

Your thoughts on this anyone??

Bryce Wilson · February 9, 2012

Yup on the "bounce" indoor, unless you are going for a real low key lighting look with dark surroundings.

Not sure if the lights you're using indoors have a modeling light, but as a rule of thumb I adjust the umbrella so the modeling light fills the entire umbrella.

HTH

Bilsen · February 9, 2012

Thanks Bryce.

No on the modeling lights. That's one real downside of using speedlights but that's the hand I have to play for now.

divamum · February 9, 2012

JohnGalt_ny wrote: »

OKAYYYYYYYYY !!!!!

The new Softlighter and grids came in yesterday so I have a week to figure out how best to use them.

I also have gotten some suggestions on another board that indoors I should use the umbrellas in bounce mode rather than shoot through. Also, from looking at the BTS image, (as Ed pointed out) I need to do a better job of getting the flash to fill the umbrella by changing the distance from the flash to the umbrella.

Your thoughts on this anyone??

I use my Softliter mostly as a softbox (flash facing the back to bounce into it, with diffuser over the front).

I have found I have greater control when I use my brollies indoors as bounce, but I prefer the softer look of shoothrough when I'm trying to create faux natural light. So, which way round I use them depends on the look I'm going for. However, the Softliter with its diffuser front provides the best of both worlds - light spill out the back is controlled, but it still keeps a large light coming out the front.

Tere - First Winter Shoot -- Let the Beatings Begin

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