D800 vs D800E

T. Bombadil · February 8, 2012

Anybody considering purchasing either of these? Which way are you leaning?

I'm ready to buy a new camera. My primary interest is sports photography (for fun, not pro), but I can not rationalize the cost of a D4 (and would be a little conflicted about the size even if the cost were lower) - though I might rent one from time to time, so what I buy need not be the ultimate sports machine.

I think I need to move to full frame - in part because I need a bigger brighter viewfinder to mitigate failing eyesight (am I correct in thinking the 100% full frame 0.7x D800 viewfinder will be bigger and brighter than the DX (97%?) of D300/400?). In fact, I'm willing to give up frames per second for better viewfinder experience. I realize that I am giving up "reach" in the transition to FX (still wrestling with that. a TC would put upward pressure on my desired ISO capability and reduce viewfinder brightness).

My current camera is a D80, so there is no question that any new camera will be a step up. The aspects I would most like to improve are cleaner images at high ISO and more than 12 megapixels (with my 10MP D80 I have not been happy with anything above ISO 640. When renting D3 and D3s I was happy with ISO as high as 6400 - if I can get to 3200 with a new camera I will be happy).

I shoot almost exclusively in raw, not afraid to spend time on an image (could use some lessons, but that is a different issue). My computer is more than ready to handle increased file size. So no worries there.

So I think the question is whether to buy 800 or 800E. I'm leaning toward the 800E (pre-ordered it, in fact).

Are the potential problems with moire something only a studio pro can mitigate, or can a nerdy enthusiast learn to manage it?

I'm grateful to hear what others are thinking.

catspaw · February 8, 2012

if looking into sports, I'd actually suggest the D700. Still way faster and an amazing camera, presuming you need the fullframe. Else the D400 when it comes out, since the crop factor and better megapixels should lend itself to being a solid fighter.

FearNothing321 · February 8, 2012

I'm pretty sure the D800E is more for studio work more than anything.

I'm also currently researching new camera bodies and I am also giving the D800 strong consideration, unless the D400 fits my needs better. I do shot sport for USF's newspaper but I am willing to give up the FPS for a better image.

T. Bombadil · February 8, 2012

catspaw wrote: »

if looking into sports, I'd actually suggest the D700. Still way faster and an amazing camera, presuming you need the fullframe. Else the D400 when it comes out, since the crop factor and better megapixels should lend itself to being a solid fighter.

I would like "meaningfully" more megapixels (not sure what that number is, but moving from 10 to 12 doesn't seem like enough). I've printed some 16x20 and would like to that more often (and some bigger).

The D400 (if it exists, has more MP than D300, and is designed as the functional successor to the D300) would seem a good fit, except that it is not full frame.

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I suspect full frame would help me see through the viewfinder. D800 has 100% coverage of 861 square millimeter image area shown at 0.7x, for 'Effective Viewfinder Presentation' (EVP, my made up terminology) of 603 square millimeters. The same math for a D300 yields 351 square mm. My D80 is 337.

This suggests to me that a full frame viewfinder is 1.7 times brighter (though I am prepared to be proven a fool). For that reason, I have placed FF as a top priority.

So, while it wouldn't be the first choice of others doing the same mix of photography, I think I end up back at the D800 - but unsure about 800 or 800E.

T. Bombadil · February 8, 2012

FearNothing321 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the D800E is more for studio work more than anything.

I'm also currently researching new camera bodies and I am also giving the D800 strong consideration, unless the D400 fits my needs better. I do shot sport for USF's newspaper but I am willing to give up the FPS for a better image.

So you could live with the FPS of the D800. The 800E doesn't interest you?

What little I have read made me think it (the "E") would also be preferred in landscape photography.

divamum · February 8, 2012

http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d800-vs-d800e?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d800-vs-d800e

T. Bombadil · February 8, 2012

divamum wrote: »

http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d800-vs-d800e?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d800-vs-d800e

That is a good read. Thank you.

In the comments, the author says he would choose the 800E for sports (if choosing between 800 and 800E, not instead of D4).

FearNothing321 · February 8, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

So you could live with the FPS of the D800. The 800E doesn't interest you?

What little I have read made me think it (the "E") would also be preferred in landscape photography.

I could live with the FPS, because I would be using the DX crop mode (I've been shooting sports with my D3100 learning to be more selective when I press the shutter release, the D3100 only has 3 FPS)

I'm going to look into the D800E a little more though

jonh68 · February 8, 2012

If its for sports, a d700 will be a better camera. Getting a d800 for the increase in mp is overkill. Most sports shooters I know shoot jpg and some like me, don't even shoot at the best quality so we can have more shots on one card. Get the d800 if you like the viewfinder, but for getting a sports camera, there are better options.

I don't know what meaningful mp upgrade means. The d700 would be a meaningful upgrade over the d80 you have now. For sports, a d800 over a d700 is not a meaningful upgrade. There is more to a camera than mp.

Icebear · February 8, 2012

Am I missing something in all the excitement about the D800? If you're looking for a major step-up from your D80 (for sports) why don't you look at the D7000? I've shot with a friend's, and quite frankly didn't even think whether the viewfinder was darker or smaller than my D300/D700. It's a helluva camera for less than half the cost of the D800, and gives you a better frame rate at 16MP than the D800 in DX mode, unless you grip the D800 for another $250-300 or so. So now we're talking about a smaller, lighter body, with equivalent low light performance and similar "chops" for sports, for closer to A THIRD the price.

The fact that the D7000 production line is still a problem due to the flooding in Thailand means I will probably wait 'till the D400 is announced to make a decision. In the meanwhile, the D300 & D700 will serve quite nicely, thank you.

T. Bombadil · February 9, 2012

jonh68 wrote: »

If its for sports, a d700 will be a better camera. Getting a d800 for the increase in mp is overkill. Most sports shooters I know shoot jpg and some like me, don't even shoot at the best quality so we can have more shots on one card. Get the d800 if you like the viewfinder, but for getting a sports camera, there are better options.

hmm. I shoot raw, and plan to continue doing so. I agree that a D800 brings more MP to the party than I need/want/whatever. With a battery grip it will reach 6 fps, still less than D700's 8 but probably enough for me (or maybe more to the point, I will just continue to try to time the shot and get no benefit from continuous firing because the D800 is still too slow).

jonh68 wrote: »

I don't know what meaningful mp upgrade means. The d700 would be a meaningful upgrade over the d80 you have now. For sports, a d800 over a d700 is not a meaningful upgrade. There is more to a camera than mp.

A meaningful MP upgrade is, in my view, more than the 10% linear improvement a D700 gets me from D80. Totally agree that there is more to a camera than MP, and in most/all other ways a D700 would be a huge step up. If I could have a D4 in a smaller package, I would likely buy it (definitely would if price were a little lower), but just trying to sort out what compromises I will make and which I will not.

So I am at peace that a D800 will be good enough at sports to keep me happy even though there are other cameras that most photographers would prefer for sports. The real question is whether to go 800 or 800E. I think I've decided on the "E".

T. Bombadil · February 9, 2012

Icebear wrote: »

Am I missing something in all the excitement about the D800? If you're looking for a major step-up from your D80 (for sports) why don't you look at the D7000? I've shot with a friend's, and quite frankly didn't even think whether the viewfinder was darker or smaller than my D300/D700. It's a helluva camera for less than half the cost of the D800, and gives you a better frame rate at 16MP than the D800 in DX mode, unless you grip the D800 for another $250-300 or so. So now we're talking about a smaller, lighter body, with equivalent low light performance and similar "chops" for sports, for closer to A THIRD the price.

I've explained myself badly. My objectives are not just a step up from my D80, but substantial improvements in some specific characteristics. I have settled on the D800 as meeting my needs, but am trying to determine whether to get the 800 or 800E version. That is my real question. Whether moire in sports photography will be an issue.

I don't doubt that the D7000 is a great camera (it certainly has many fans). It has enough MP to satisfy me. It has sufficient fps (not sure I care about fps). It is not a "pro body", in that its control layout includes scene modes, etc. - which is something I plan to avoid in my next purchase. So my short list is D4, D800, D400 (if/when), etc. I've continued to use and enjoy a D80 all this time because I was interested in learning to get the most out of a camera, and to avoid chasing the latest gear all the time. So my move to a D800 or D4 or whatever is certainly to a different price point - but I'm fine with that. In fact, I don't really have any hesitation about the D4 beyond ostentation - it is just too conspicuous where I would be using it.

Icebear wrote: »

The fact that the D7000 production line is still a problem due to the flooding in Thailand means I will probably wait 'till the D400 is announced to make a decision. In the meanwhile, the D300 & D700 will serve quite nicely, thank you.

Have you ever noticed that your D300 viewfinder is darker and smaller than your D700? I suspect that it is, and that the difference would be enough for it to be a problem for me (I have eyesight issues that are worsening). I could be wrong, or perhaps this is just not something that is on your radar because your eyes work better than mine - and I'm glad your 300 and 700 serve you well.

ziggy53 · February 9, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

... I have settled on the D800 as meeting my needs, but am trying to determine whether to get the 800 or 800E version. That is my real question. Whether moire in sports photography will be an issue. ...

The simple truth is that we don't have enough information from any practical experience regarding the Nikon D800E.

Remembering that sports photography involves sports uniforms, and some of those have patterns but all are made of cloth, moiré will almost certainly occur occasionally using the Nikon D800E for sports photography. The questions are, 'How bad will it be?' and, 'How effective are the software solutions?'.

I have not seen any demonstration that addresses either of those issues in any solid and conclusive fashion.

I did use a camera body in the past that did not have an AA/low-pass filter in front of the sensor; the Kodak DCS 460. This was a $16,000USD camera body, that my employer really did pay $16,000 for in 1995 from Calumet, and it did not come standard with a filter to prevent moiré. For product photography it was not so much an issue, but for general photography it was a persistent occasional problem.

The good news is that while the Kodak DCS 460 had only 6 megapixels, the Nikon D800E has 36 megapixels. This will greatly reduce the practical problematic effects of moiré for many uses. Whether that means that the camera is problematic for sports applications is yet to be seen.

Edit: I should add that we did decide to add an AA filter to the Kodak DCS 460 just so it would be better for general photography, and the AA filter stayed on until the camera was retired in 2004.

T. Bombadil · February 9, 2012

ziggy53 wrote: »

The simple truth is that we don't have enough information from any practical experience regarding the Nikon D800E.

Remembering that sports photography involves sports uniforms, and some of those have patterns but all are made of cloth, moiré will almost certainly occur occasionally using the Nikon D800E for sports photography. The questions are, 'How bad will it be?' and, 'How effective are the software solutions?'.

I have not seen any demonstration that addresses either of those issues in any solid and conclusive fashion.

So I guess we wait. Here's hoping that someone does the analysis soon (recognizing there aren't any in the wild yet).

ziggy53 wrote: »

I did use a camera body in the past that did not have an AA/low-pass filter in front of the sensor; the Kodak DCS 460. This was a $16,000USD camera body, that my employer really did pay $16,000 for in 1995 from Calumet, and it did not come standard with a filter to prevent moiré. For product photography it was not so much an issue, but for general photography it was a persistent occasional problem.

The good news is that while the Kodak DCS 460 had only 6 megapixels, the Nikon D800E has 36 megapixels. This will greatly reduce the practical problematic effects of moiré for many uses. Whether that means that the camera is problematic for sports applications is yet to be seen.

Edit: I should add that we did decide to add an AA filter to the Kodak DCS 460 just so it would be better for general photography, and the AA filter stayed on until the camera was retired in 2004.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing this experience.

jonh68 · February 9, 2012

Ziggy, that is a good point about uniforms, especially ones like football,lacrosse, which will have tiny holes. For sports, I would not get one without a AA filter. It wouldn't be an issue for full body shots, but when you get the close up shots, it could be.

ThatCanonGuy · February 9, 2012

Check out example shots from the Fuji X100, X-Pro 1, or Leica M9. They don't have AA filters. Here's a post with some good info and links: http://nikonrumors.com/2012/02/04/why-remove-the-anti-aliasing-aa-filter-in-the-nikon-d800e.aspx/

chasgroh · February 11, 2012

...I'm looking at the D800 also, and as a D700 *and* D300 owner my reasoning is still a little fragmented, but becoming more coalesced by the day . I do alot of sports-like shooting (marching bands and such)and love the reach the crop-sensor gives me, but when day turns to night my D700 rules, reach or no reach. I've solved the dilemma somewhat by renting a 200-400 F4 (that is a GREAT lens) that allows me reach *and* the ISO advantages of the D700, so my D300 sits alot (although, during daylight, it's wickedly cool to hook that huge lens up to it and get 300-600...gawd!). In the D800 I see better resolution on the full-frame end, and full use of all of my DX lenses *with* resolution all in one body. VERY tempting. Not-to-mention the addition of video...I think that might just do it for me...the cost of the camera, considering all these improvements/advantages, is absolutely dirt cheap!

cg

rwells · February 12, 2012

What about sensor dust on the D800E? (Sports shooting has a lot of dust)

No AA filter over the sensor, so your going to be cleaning the sensor itself

Icebear · February 13, 2012

rwells wrote: »

What about sensor dust on the D800E? (Sports shooting has a lot of dust)

No AA filter over the sensor, so your going to be cleaning the sensor itself

Can't find the link right now, but I've seen a diagram, and I think there IS an IR filter over the sensor. Scary if not!

T. Bombadil · February 13, 2012

There is a filter, it is just configured differently - in such a way as to provide no AA effect.
Thom Hogan has a note about it.
www.bythom.com

Wayupthere · February 13, 2012

So I guess we wait. Here's hoping that someone does the analysis soon (recognizing there aren't any in the wild yet).

mmm..that is a little weird. There are plenty of people that had the D4 and gave their glowing reviews. But no one had/ has the 800

Also with all of the software experts on here I am a little surprised about the lack of knowledge for "fixing" the moiré. Which tells me that it might be a real problem.
With that said it would be pretty risky ordering the E right now.
Gary

T. Bombadil · February 13, 2012

Wayupthere wrote: »

. . . with all of the software experts on here I am a little surprised about the lack of knowledge for "fixing" the moiré. Which tells me that it might be a real problem.

Well that's what has me wondering. The problem of moire is quite well understood (by photographers in general, not by me), I would think.

On the one hand, moire is not easily mitigated in post. On the other hand, there are other cameras without AA filtering (M9, etc.) and some of their owners have said it isn't a big problem (it happens, but they still enjoy their camera).

The size of the 'offensive' pattern that gives rise to moire in relation to the size of the pixels is the issue (as i understand it). So I guess it is just difficult to predict what materials/structures will be a problem - we can only be sure that it will be different situations than what creates moire in an M9 (for example). Diffraction, lack of lens acuity, focus issues, all would mitigate moire (and obviate any high megapixel advantage).

zoomer · February 13, 2012

I don't know all the technical reasons..
One article I read said that because of the high megapixels the moire tends to be less of a problem.

lifeinfocus · February 13, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

There is a filter, it is just configured differently - in such a way as to provide no AA effect.
Thom Hogan has a note about it.
www.bythom.com

I read his article on the D800 and he mentions "CPM" as a feature request for the future. What is CPM?

T. Bombadil · February 13, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

I read his article on the D800 and he mentions "CPM" as a feature request for the future. What is CPM?

CPM stands for "Communicating, Programable, Modular" - which refers to Thom Hogan's wishes for camera capabilities (Communicate in ways similar to cellphone cameras, Programmable such that the physical camera is not the interface limit, and Modular to permit expanded configuration and upgrade possibilities - at least, those are my thoughts on what he means by it).

lifeinfocus · February 13, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

CPM stands for "Communicating, Programmable, Modular" - which refers to Thom Hogan's wishes for camera capabilities (Communicate in ways similar to cellphone cameras, Programmable such that the physical camera is not the interface limit, and Modular to permit expanded configuration and upgrade possibilities - at least, those are my thoughts on what he means by it).

Sounds a little like the PC I just finished building, only in a much small configuration, and oh yeah the camera can take photos and video. I am sure that will happen someday.

Regarding the D800, can it function both as a FX and DX camera so that when I want to get more reach with my zoom lenses I can do so?

The ideal camera for me would have the above capability, native 12,800 and be priced like a D800 instead of the D4.

Good luck in shopping. I look forward to what you select in the future and your thoughts.

Phil

jonh68 · February 13, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

Sounds a little like the PC I just finished building, only in a much small configuration, and oh yeah the camera can take photos and video. I am sure that will happen someday.

Regarding the D800, can it function both as a FX and DX camera so that when I want to get more reach with my zoom lenses I can do so?

The ideal camera for me would have the above capability, native 12,800 and be priced like a D800 instead of the D4.

Good luck in shopping. I look forward to what you select in the future and your thoughts.

Phil

D800 does have a DX mode, and you can also just manually crop the pictures too.

Wayupthere · February 13, 2012

Here is a little nugget about Moire removal I found tonight.
http://scottkelby.com/

b) The bad thing is, all the methods for Moire removal that I’ve seen over the years all involve the slight or moderate blurring of the affected area, and I’ve yet to see any of them that do a really brilliant job of it, (including the new one in Lightroom 4, which is actually pretty decent). They reduce it to some extent, but they don’t fully remove it. The last case of Moire I had was so bad I asked our own Pete Collins to help me out, and it took him literally hours to remove it, and it included a lot of Photoshop magic, cloning, copying, and sweat.So, in short, in the race between a few percent of extra sharpness and fear of moiré; fear won! ;-)

Gary

Icebear · February 13, 2012

Moire
And if you've never run into ugly moire in your real world, have a look at the chair across the table. Fix that in post. I couldn't.

Edit: Sorry. For some reason there's no Exif in the image. Anyway, this was shot about six years ago with a D70.

T. Bombadil · February 13, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

. . . Regarding the D800, can it function both as a FX and DX camera so that when I want to get more reach with my zoom lenses I can do so?

Yes. In DX crop mode you use the center 15MP of the sensor.

lifeinfocus wrote: »

The ideal camera for me would have the above capability, native 12,800 and be priced like a D800 instead of the D4.

That _would_ be a nice tool :-)

lifeinfocus wrote: »

Good luck in shopping. I look forward to what you select in the future and your thoughts.

Thanks!

T. Bombadil · February 13, 2012

Icebear wrote: »

And if you've never run into ugly moire in your real world, have a look at the chair across the table. Fix that in post. I couldn't.

Edit: Sorry. For some reason there's no Exif in the image. Anyway, this was shot about six years ago with a D70.

Blech. You're right, it is very noticeable.

Is it impossible to do a convincing clone from another chair? (I ask, as someone who has done no work in Photoshop, only Aperture and LR).

D800 vs D800E

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