Pkt Wzrds vs Rdio Popprz

Icebear

I know, I know. Been asked, etc. Notably in this thread. But since that thread was born and died, I think there have been improvements, advancements and developments. Recently, I've been really going round and round about lighting. I'm very familiar with the Nikon CLS. I've read about Poppers and Wizards 'till I've thoroughly confused myself. So before Ziggy asks "for what application?" let me say "all applications.

Here's the question: If I want a simple, reliable (non-IR) way to control four Nikon speedlights (SB-600s & 800s) indoors, outdoors, daytime, nighttime, iTTL, manual, whatever, what advice would y'all offer.

A few things I've thought of:
1. Poppers don't inject their own "brains" into the CLS, just convert it to a radio signal. More reliable?? :dunno
2. Poppers seem kinda kludgy, having to line up just right with the IR ports.
3. You still generate a pre-flash with the Poppers. I've had "blinking" issues with that.
4. Wizards seem to be more versatile across other kinds of lighting systems. (Ooohh, Einsteins!)
5. Unless I'm bolloxing the math, a PW system for the four speedlights would cost about the same as a Popper Px system.

I'm all ears.:ear

ziggy53

Icebear wrote: »

... before Ziggy asks "for what application?" let me say "all applications.

...

I love when people pay attention.

If you're serious about wanting to cover all bases, I don't think that you'll find a single system to do "everything" that you might want to do.

I suggest starting with a simple radio system and learning how to integrate that with manual exposure and ambient light. Once you take everything to manual, it actually gets easier to set up, because "you" are in control. Learn how to use Guide Numbers to set the f-stop, and how to adjust the flash power output to match the situation.

You can also apply what you learn to use studio strobes if necessary, and most of those systems are still totally manual.

Icebear

ziggy53 wrote: »

I love when people pay attention.

I suggest starting with a simple radio system and learning how to integrate that with manual exposure and ambient light.

Already have that Zig (Phottix Strato) and I'm pretty adept at balancing ambient and electronic. I have to be to do interior architectural work. In a fluid situation though (like sports or wildlife) manual flash has its limitations. That's why iTTL capability is a priority for me. The camera can do those calculations for me a lot faster and more reliably than I.

ziggy53

Icebear wrote: »

Already have that Zig (Phottix Strato) and I'm pretty adept at balancing ambient and electronic. I have to be to do interior architectural work. In a fluid situation though (like sports or wildlife) manual flash has its limitations. That's why iTTL capability is a priority for me. The camera can do those calculations for me a lot faster and more reliably than I.

That's great.

For sports/action/wildlife-in-motion, if it's rapid motion or motion close to the camera and with a rapid closing rate, Nikon i-TTL and CLS may not be the best choice.

As you already mentioned, you can get "eye blink" with a TTL system. A multi-flash i-TTL setup can send/receive a fairly long preflash string of pulses, and that's what allows some folks to blink before the contributing flash pulse. That same delay can cause miscalculation of the flash levels in a rapid-subject-motion situation.

(Here is a link to an image that shows the measured delay in a Nikon i-TTL preflash communication:
http://dptnt.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/PreFlash.png)

A simple radio trigger plus an "auto" flash is often preferable. The reason is that an "auto" flash is autonomous in measuring the flash pulse. The flash uses its own sensor and thyristor to clamp the flash output when the sensor detects a suitable exposure, and it all happens "during" the contributing flash output pulse. Since there is no pre-flash communication, it's extremely fast. Accuracy depends upon the flash's sensor and the angle of measure, as well as subject reflectance and background reflectance.

Dan7312

I use PW mini/flex, but not professionly so I doubt I pushing them as hard as you might. Also I use them with Canon. Using them along with the AC-3 controller let's me switch between manual/eTTL and do settings over 3 groups of remote flashes independently from the camera and it is incredibly useful. I've had the mini/flex since before the AC3 was available but now that I have it I would call the AC3 a required addon.

The AC3 is a really neat hack in that the flash is always left in eTTL mode but AC3 mucks around with the control signal to make the flash do what you want when using manual mode. When in manual mode the AC3 just sends a signal to the flash to set it output level according to level you set on the AC3, just like the camera does for eTTL, except there is no test flash.

Canon 580EX flashes have a problem with noise when more than about 30ft from mini but the AC7 shield seems to solve that problem and give me more way to attach the remotes to whatever.

There HSS gets more light out of the flashes than the Canon remotes do... I think because the radio signal is more precise than using light to control the flashes as the Canon remotes do.

They also have something called hyper sync that gives you, in effect, a higher sync speed, but I haven't gotten around to doing the configs to make that work.

There is learning curve with them... but I like to just try all the different things they can do.

I found PW support to be good.

Icebear wrote: »

I know, I know. Been asked, etc. Notably in this thread. But since that thread was born and died, I think there have been improvements, advancements and developments. Recently, I've been really going round and round about lighting. I'm very familiar with the Nikon CLS. I've read about Poppers and Wizards 'till I've thoroughly confused myself. So before Ziggy asks "for what application?" let me say "all applications.

Here's the question: If I want a simple, reliable (non-IR) way to control four Nikon speedlights (SB-600s & 800s) indoors, outdoors, daytime, nighttime, iTTL, manual, whatever, what advice would y'all offer.

A few things I've thought of:
1. Poppers don't inject their own "brains" into the CLS, just convert it to a radio signal. More reliable??
2. Poppers seem kinda kludgy, having to line up just right with the IR ports.
3. You still generate a pre-flash with the Poppers. I've had "blinking" issues with that.
4. Wizards seem to be more versatile across other kinds of lighting systems. (Ooohh, Einsteins!)
5. Unless I'm bolloxing the math, a PW system for the four speedlights would cost about the same as a Popper Px system.

I'm all ears.

Dan7312

One other thing is that I the PW can up the power of the test flash, in fact I think it does by default. That would be make the issue making the subject blink worse. However it is something you can configure.

Icebear wrote: »

I know, I know. Been asked, etc. Notably in this thread. But since that thread was born and died, I think there have been improvements, advancements and developments. Recently, I've been really going round and round about lighting. I'm very familiar with the Nikon CLS. I've read about Poppers and Wizards 'till I've thoroughly confused myself. So before Ziggy asks "for what application?" let me say "all applications.

Here's the question: If I want a simple, reliable (non-IR) way to control four Nikon speedlights (SB-600s & 800s) indoors, outdoors, daytime, nighttime, iTTL, manual, whatever, what advice would y'all offer.

A few things I've thought of:
1. Poppers don't inject their own "brains" into the CLS, just convert it to a radio signal. More reliable??
2. Poppers seem kinda kludgy, having to line up just right with the IR ports.
3. You still generate a pre-flash with the Poppers. I've had "blinking" issues with that.
4. Wizards seem to be more versatile across other kinds of lighting systems. (Ooohh, Einsteins!)
5. Unless I'm bolloxing the math, a PW system for the four speedlights would cost about the same as a Popper Px system.

I'm all ears.

Icebear

More info
Here's a link to the article from which Ziggy's graph was lifted. It is pretty interesting. Doesn't address my question though. PW or RP?

rwells

Hey John,

I (still) have my PW TT5's for my Canon's, and after getting the AC7 sheilds for the RF issues, they are great. Your using Nikon, as I now am, so you won't (reportedly) have the RF issues the Canon flashes had.

I'm with Dan on the PW's, and I also agree that the AC3 is a must have option for the system. It's very intuitive and effective. If nothing else, the usefulness of the AC3 would sway me to the PW's over the RPoppers. The PW's also allow backward compatibility with standard PW triggers. Poppers don't.

I'll be getting some Nikon PW's for my new system as soon as I can get around to it...

Happy shooting!

Icebear

rwells wrote: »

Hey John,

I (still) have my PW TT5's for my Canon's, and after getting the AC7 sheilds for the RF issues, they are great. Your using Nikon, as I now am, so you won't (reportedly) have the RF issues the Canon flashes had.

I'm with Dan on the PW's, and I also agree that the AC3 is a must have option for the system. It's very intuitive and effective. If nothing else, the usefulness of the AC3 would sway me to the PW's over the RPoppers. The PW's also allow backward compatibility with standard PW triggers. Poppers don't.

I'll be getting some Nikon PW's for my new system as soon as I can get around to it...

Happy shooting!

Howdy, Randy! Thanks for the input. Good to hear from you.

Dan7312

This just my impression on what's going on with eTTL from the different things I've read about it.

The pre-flashes are used for two things, one is communication from the main flash to the remotes, and the other is so the main camera can measure how much reflected light there is from the scene so the camera can figure out what flash level to use, taking into account the amount of flash compensation you have set.

So if you are using an optical remote connection, in one way or another, the main flash has to do a pre-flash to tell the remotes to do a low-light flash, then the remotes do a low-light flash. Then after the camera does its light level calculations it does another low-light flash to set the level in the remote flash and fire it.

When there are groups of flashes I think it gets more complicated because, I think, each group gets preflashed separately... I don't see how a one size fits all can work for all the groups. At least with Canon flashes when you to a test button fire each group gets flashed separately so you can check to see if you've the groups set up the way you think you do.

Radio triggers don't need to use a pre-flash for communication so that might eliminate the communicion pre-flashes.

Have you contacted PW support? I've contacted them in the past and found them very helpful. It's not a big place so I'm sure somebody there can tell you the facts on how PW's handle pre-flash.

Icebear wrote: »

Here's alink to the article from which Ziggy's graph was lifted. It is pretty interesting. Doesn't address my question though. PW or RP?

fjcvisual

Lots of good comments. As for the AC3 it is a great addon. watch the video here:

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/tutorials/nikon_ac3/

Icebear

Dan7312 wrote: »

Radio triggers don't need to use a pre-flash for communication so that might eliminate the communicion pre-flashes.

Exactly, Dan. What I'm gathering from looking at occiliscope graphs, etc, is that by using radio triggers, you eliminate the FIRST preflash that could be detected by the subject (whether human or wild animal) but the remote flashes still have to do their things in order to calculate the TTL values. So while you don't completely eliminate pre-flashes you, in all liklihood, cut down the time between pre-flash and "fire-for-effect" to below human reaction time, thus eliminating the "blink effect."

Non-human animal reactions are often much faster, so they may still "jump the flash" if you are using iTTL with radio triggers.

Icebear

ziggy53 wrote: »

A simple radio trigger plus an "auto" flash is often preferable. The reason is that an "auto" flash is autonomous in measuring the flash pulse. The flash uses its own sensor and thyristor to clamp the flash output when the sensor detects a suitable exposure, and it all happens "during" the contributing flash output pulse. Since there is no pre-flash communication, it's extremely fast. Accuracy depends upon the flash's sensor and the angle of measure, as well as subject reflectance and background reflectance.

Unfortunately Nikon chose not to include a simple Auto mode in the SB-600 of which I have three. M or TTL is your only choice.

ziggy53

Icebear wrote: »

Exactly, Dan. What I'm gathering from looking at occiliscope graphs, etc, is that by using radio triggers, you eliminate the FIRST preflash that could be detected by the subject (whether human or wild animal) but the remote flashes still have to do their things in order to calculate the TTL values. So while you don't completely eliminate pre-flashes you, in all liklihood, cut down the time between pre-flash and "fire-for-effect" to below human reaction time, thus eliminating the "blink effect." ...

For a "simple" radio trigger that may be the case. For radio triggers that duplicate the automation of a multi-strobe setup, or even a single remote wireless flash, I think you will find the same communication delays, plus the addition of a minor additional delay in the additional electronics of the radio transmitter/receiver sets themselves. (The radio transmission itself is, of course, at the speed-of-light. The delay I am mentioning is due mostly to the multiplexing and de-multiplexing of the flash communication data.)

Dan7312

It might be a wash, but this is just a guess. Both optical and radio signals are speed of light, both have to be de-modulated and maybe demultiplexed. And both go through electronics before they are sent out like and ST-E2 or 580EX master/ or mini and received. My guess is that the radio transmitter ends up with higher bandwidth though just because I don't think that the devices used to make light can be switched all that fast and still be able to overcome the noise in the form of ambient light in the scene. Inside a light fiber that's a different story because the signals aren't interfered with by ambient light.

It would be interesting to setup a horse race beween 580ex Master and a PW mini, and see who
really fires the flash first. I can't think of an easy way to do that though

ziggy53 wrote: »

For a "simple" radio trigger that may be the case. For radio triggers that duplicate the automation of a multi-strobe setup, or even a single remote wireless flash, I think you will find the same communication delays, plus the addition of a minor additional delay in the additional electronics of the radio transmitter/receiver sets themselves. (The radio transmission itself is, of course, at the speed-of-light. The delay I am mentioning is due mostly to the multiplexing and de-multiplexing of the flash communication data.)

Icebear

ziggy53 wrote: »

For a "simple" radio trigger that may be the case. For radio triggers that duplicate the automation of a multi-strobe setup, or even a single remote wireless flash, I think you will find the same communication delays, plus the addition of a minor additional delay in the additional electronics of the radio transmitter/receiver sets themselves. (The radio transmission itself is, of course, at the speed-of-light. The delay I am mentioning is due mostly to the multiplexing and de-multiplexing of the flash communication data.)

When I use the "little red thingy" (SG-3IR) that hangs over the pop-up to convert the pre-flashes to IR, I never get the blink. How might that fact factor in to whether eliminating the initial pre-flash with radio triggers might eliminate the blink? BEFORE ANYONE ASKS why not just use the "little red thingy," the subject of this thread is not how to eliminate the blink. Using the "little red thingy" reduces the range of the commander anyway, and I know from experience it does not reliable communicate with a speedlight hidden inside an Apollo SB.

kdlanejr

Icebear wrote: »

Here's alink to the article from which Ziggy's graph was lifted. It is pretty interesting. Doesn't address my question though. PW or RP?

I've had PW FlexTT5's for a few years now. My early hardware/firmware models were replaced by PW well over a year ago. This was primarily due to the hardware hotshoe.

I have had several discussions with the technical guys at PW when I first picked them up. I was unable to get them to perform the same way on a 1DmkIIn, 1DmkIII and 1DsmkII. They took that to heart, did some in house testing based on my feedback and moved forward.

The primary issue that I used to see bandied about the most is related to Radio Frequency Interference. I never had this issue. I had and still have four 550ex's that I use as slaves with the flexTT5's and the 550ex's do not suffer from RFI issues.

For Canon, the more recent anti-FlexTT5 furvor had come from folks that have been burning up their 580exII's while pushing them to the limits. PW did take the time to evaluate their issues and not only discovered why it was happening but has offered to repair those units (canon flashes) so it will not happen again. I never had a 580exII fail on me while using HSS with flexTT5's. Perhaps it's because I usually set the master to not fire and only work with the slaves. :-)

So lets talk about the answer to your question, PW vs RP. I'm surprised that it's even a question. Basically, the Nikon version has been bullet proof thanks to the lessons learned from the Canon release and the engineering differences between Canon and Nikon.

Things you can do with a PW Flex system.
1. Remote slave a camera
2. Remote slave a camera with a studio strobe (flash relay)
3. Act as a receiver for a PW multi-max for all 32 channels (four channels for a PW Plus II)
4. Hypersync a studio strobe up to 1/1250 second or faster depending on the studio strobe.
5. Hypersync a speedlite up to High speed sync speed where it automatically shifts to HSS and continues up to your cameras max shutter speed (1/8000 second for the canon 1 series bodies I use)
6. Remotely adjust power of speedlites in three different groups (a, b and c) via a master flash or via the AC3.
7. PW has added some stuff for PCB AB and einstein users that I simply don't need, but it's there.
8. Enjoy wireless ETTL without worrying about whether or not your flashes can see the masters light signals, sun's too bright, slaves too far away, softbox is shielding the master signal, etc.

I'm sure there are a few more things I could list, but I'm not going to dig through the pocket wizard utility for the Flex system just to post more.

The key to successful wireless ETTL is understanding the electronic handshake that the units go through when they are powered up.

You're other option?

Come on now, is it really an option?

Dreadnote

kdlanejr wrote: »

.

Things you can do with a PW Flex system.
1. Remote slave a camera
2. Remote slave a camera with a studio strobe (flash relay)
3. Act as a receiver for a PW multi-max for all 32 channels (four channels for a PW Plus II)
4. Hypersync a studio strobe up to 1/1250 second or faster depending on the studio strobe.
5. Hypersync a speedlite up to High speed sync speed where it automatically shifts to HSS and continues up to your cameras max shutter speed (1/8000 second for the canon 1 series bodies I use)
6. Remotely adjust power of speedlites in three different groups (a, b and c) via a master flash or via the AC3.
7. PW has added some stuff for PCB AB and einstein users that I simply don't need, but it's there.
8. Enjoy wireless ETTL without worrying about whether or not your flashes can see the masters light signals, sun's too bright, slaves too far away, softbox is shielding the master signal, etc.

I'm sure there are a few more things I could list, but I'm not going to dig through the pocket wizard utility for the Flex system just to post more.

The key to successful wireless ETTL is understanding the electronic handshake that the units go through when they are powered up.

You're other option?

Come on now, is it really an option?

Plus for what it's worth, they can be set up in two configurations at the same time and selected with a switch. This allows for numerous configurations not limited to but including the one I use which is to have all the iTTL magic and other features mentioned above set up on position number one and have basic trigger mode set up on the other one which allows for full FPS triggering (up to 7 I believe on my D300s, and supported up to 9 if I remember correctly by the system) and compatibility with non Nikon flashes and cameras.

Dan7312

I just looked on the Nikon site and the test images it shows implies that the pop up is not only doing a pre-flash, it's doing the main flash too. You can see a shadow that is caused by the lens being in the line of fire of the popup flash when the thingy is not used. So that would tell me that the reason it cuts down on blinks is that popup is firing during the main flash, which is much brighter than the pre-flash, too and the thingy prevents the popup main flash from lighting the subject.

http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13761/~/using-the-sg-3ir

Icebear wrote: »

When I use the "little red thingy" (SG-3IR) that hangs over the pop-up to convert the pre-flashes to IR, I never get the blink. How might that fact factor in to whether eliminating the initial pre-flash with radio triggers might eliminate the blink? BEFORE ANYONE ASKS why not just use the "little red thingy," the subject of this thread is not how to eliminate the blink. Using the "little red thingy" reduces the range of the commander anyway, and I know from experience it does not reliable communicate with a speedlight hidden inside an Apollo SB.

Icebear

Dan7312 wrote: »

I just looked on the Nikon site and the test images it shows implies that the pop up is not only doing a pre-flash, it's doing the main flash too. You can see a shadow that is caused by the lens being in the line of fire of the popup flash when the thingy is not used. So that would tell me that the reason it cuts down on blinks is that popup is firing during the main flash, which is much brighter than the pre-flash, too and the thingy prevents the popup main flash from lighting the subject.

http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13761/~/using-the-sg-3ir

Good eye Dan, and your conclusion is correct - BUT - and it's a huge BUT.
The page you link to (note the date) is for the D70. The D70 did not have the on-board capability to remove the pop-up flash from the equation. Commander Mode with the D70 was pretty basic. The D70 required all flashes to be in the same group, and the pop-up was both the commander and contributor. That was why the "little red thingy" was developed.

Today's cameras (D300, D90, D700, etc) allow you to control multiple groups and to set the pop-up to "--" which means it does not "flash in anger."

Moving Pictures

Icebear wrote: »

When I use the "little red thingy" ...

I believe this phrase is insufficiently technical, and therefore, does not belong in this thead. Please edit accordingly.

ziggy53

Moving Pictures wrote: »

I believe this phrase is insufficiently technical, and therefore, does not belong in this thead. Please edit accordingly.

Icebear wrote: »

... "little red thingy" (SG-3IR) ...

... from post #16 above.

Icebear

Moving Pictures wrote: »

I believe this phrase is insufficiently technical, and therefore, does not belong in this thead. Please edit accordingly.

Geeze! OK, how about "little Pantone 1815 thingy." THAT technical enough for ya?

Blurmore

I've been using the poppers for about 5 weddings now. They are by no means totally foolproof, which means you need to learn not to be a fool. The GUI rewards people who double check everything, but can be slow to navigate under pressure. I use a the jrx with a AB 800 and I find it to be the buggier of the two connections PX/PX (ttl) and PX/JRx (power control). Sometimes I have to change channels without changing venues, and reboot (register) both lights. The range is "as advertised" but falls can fail after repeated ultra long range use. I used Quantum radio slaves as stupid transmitters before and I don't see any range advantage to the RPs and the reliability isn't even close the Quantums only fail for one reason you are too far away, or your battery indicator is blinking. Most of my issue with triggering the AB falls more into the not syncing than not firing at all category. I'm happy to report that the E-TTL to E-TTL transmissions are pretty solid so long as you remember make sure the transmitter is in the firing and not programming mode. I think in future upgrades they should make it that if the trans unit recieves flash signal it should immediately revert to the last good setting/go to firing mode with current settings. The system has a long way to go, but I'm learning to use it as is, because I believe it is the system that best fits my needs/wants.

OH and RP if you are reading this!!!!! 32 channels IS NOT too many to let people "go around the horn" as the pig says in Toy Story, 2 button hold to go power down SUX!

Icebear

OK. Done. I "pulled the trigger" (Bwaaaaa-haaaa. Get it??? Oh, sorry . . .) on Pocket Wizards. Four Flex TT5s, a Mini TT1 and an AC3. Thanks for all the input.

ziggy53

That should be a really nice kit.

Dan7312

I'm sure you will like them And you know that the Flex can be used as a radio shutter trigger for your camera...

Icebear wrote: »

OK. Done. I "pulled the trigger" (Bwaaaaa-haaaa. Get it??? Oh, sorry . . .) on Pocket Wizards. Four Flex TT5s, a Mini TT1 and an AC3. Thanks for all the input.