Feedback on Feedback?
johnloguk
Registered Users Posts: 137 Major grins
I'm not a regular commenter generally on Dgrin, although I have been doing the Challenges for a couple of years now. One burning question that I keep meaning to ask is "how valuable do people find feedback on their pics before Challenges"?
I see a lot of people posting ideas and experiments for feedback before they decide on an entry, but I've never done it myself. My reasoning is that much of the advice and feedback is contradictory, and I think I'd be left more confused rather than set on a particular image. That isn't a criticism of the feedback by the way, just an observation of how we all see things differently and have pet likes/dislikes.
It is maybe easier to be objective with technical criticism, there are after all lots of "rules" about photography. But most of those rules are regularly broken very successfully, and we'd be restricting ourselves horribly if we only stuck to rule books. Photography is an art not a science.
Unless an image is badly flawed technically, big smudge across the middle or painful composition for example, I tend to judge photos purely on the WOW factor. How does a shot move me, is it boring, cliched, does it leap off the screen/page at me? What affects me in these ways may well not do the same to someone else, which is what makes photography so difficult to judge. An image judged by one person alone is bound to be subject to their personal prejudices, so a wider spectrum of criticism/feedback should be useful. So after all this rambling I come full circle, how useful do people find the pre-competition feedback?
I see a lot of people posting ideas and experiments for feedback before they decide on an entry, but I've never done it myself. My reasoning is that much of the advice and feedback is contradictory, and I think I'd be left more confused rather than set on a particular image. That isn't a criticism of the feedback by the way, just an observation of how we all see things differently and have pet likes/dislikes.
It is maybe easier to be objective with technical criticism, there are after all lots of "rules" about photography. But most of those rules are regularly broken very successfully, and we'd be restricting ourselves horribly if we only stuck to rule books. Photography is an art not a science.
Unless an image is badly flawed technically, big smudge across the middle or painful composition for example, I tend to judge photos purely on the WOW factor. How does a shot move me, is it boring, cliched, does it leap off the screen/page at me? What affects me in these ways may well not do the same to someone else, which is what makes photography so difficult to judge. An image judged by one person alone is bound to be subject to their personal prejudices, so a wider spectrum of criticism/feedback should be useful. So after all this rambling I come full circle, how useful do people find the pre-competition feedback?
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Two problems here, however. 1) Since the challenges are submitted as something of a contest. It's hard (for me) to give negative criticism when I am entering my own photograph. I am trying more and more to help with photos that I think could be improved. And 2) learning how to critique a photograph is likely as hard, if not harder, than taking a good photograph. I participate in this local photography club where most of the other members are professional and trained. We do critique sessions. I was much more intimidated to critique than to be critiqued. But this is how we learn.
What makes a photograph a great photograph? Consensus. Period.
ackdoc.com
I find it hugely helpful. Many times there are things about an image that I just flat didn't notice, that stick out like a huge thumb when someone mentions it. I appreciate the chance to fix it before I notice during voting.
There will always be a difference of opinion. I try to look at all of it, try the different suggestions and then go with what I LIKE. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't When it comes down to it, it is my photo, no one else's. Some are great, some are duds... some that I thought were duds did great, some I love got were failures votes wise. But critiques have taught me way too much for me not to take advantage of the expertise in this forum and ask for help.
Sure rules are meant to be broken, but it better be amazingly broken usually. The WOW factor usually comes from the fact that the rules that make a photo so appealing were followed. When I first learned about the "Rule of Thirds" I looked back through the things I had been shooting before that. My favorites were ones that fell into the rule without me knowing. They generally are more pleasant... but no, not always. Sometimes you want the dead center composition for the impact, but again, it better be amazing.
So, yes, in the end, it all comes down to what you like, but I have learned too much here to not post before entering a challenge.
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It has sometimes been confusing receiving contradictory feedback. That was part of the learning process, too. It has helped me to develop my internal compass.
As far as the competitive part of the challenge, every one of us will have different opportunities during the challenge period. Some of us will have more time available or amazing light and weather. The theme will inspire some of us and leave others flat. If I help someone else improve their entry, I may lose the challenge (or maybe not). But what I get from giving feedback outweighs that risk.
The feedback is what keeps me coming back.
The last couple of challenges were a test for myself having only placed between 7-20 after voting in previous challenges. I created an image for the 'people'. The standard challenge was won with my "Old Memories" entry, which was a strong image itself, but posted it anyway as a bit of a 'tutorial' to gain interest. Now being eligible for the Mega "Album Cover SP" I chose a country theme because it is what most of our generation would be interested in listening to. Posted it to get reactions, and added some humor from the shoot to keep interest in its creation. I won both of these back to back. It was the only challenges I posted images for before the entry which further helped my understanding of 'what people want'. It is not always what you want. (originally I was thinking a "Quiet Riot" theme with a straight jacket, until I considered other people... get my point?)
My shooting has now changed to "What people would want", but I do keep it within my realm of interest.
Not everyone will like any given photograph, but there is a way to win the majority, and I now understand how.
How do I vote? The WOW factor is part of it, but I also look at the time spent in preparation, traveling, long hours waiting for the perfect time, attention to detail and actually pulling it off well. Creativeness in post processing... and one of the most important things... Does it tell a story? (is there meaning or is it just a picture)
What I don't like is a standard snapshot that only took a few minutes of thought.
If I see something that can be improved I will comment on it in a positive way and make suggestions. If I believe it has no potential I may suggest something completely different, but do it in a positive way.
Troy
I've really appreciated the different individuals who took the time to help me privately on occasion, too, because I got to ask questions that I thought would probably sound too dumb to ask in public!
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Some legacy OM lenses and an OM-10
As far as conflicting advice... I just sort through and see what makes sense to me.
The side benefit is the conversation and getting to know my fellow dgrinners.
www.lisaspeakmanphotography.com
The consensus seems to be that it does pay to ask for feedback, maybe I'm just talking to the converted
My take is probably a little different than most others who have posted so far. I was entering contests for a while, with a tiny bit of success but not a whole lot. I was often surprised at which photos did well -- they usually weren't the ones I voted for. I thought maybe it was just my own bias towards my own shots, so I sat out some challenges, so I wouldn't have a dog in the fight. Again, I found that many of the photos I thought were really good, did poorly; while the ones that won I often found to be some of the weaker entries.
I thought Troy's response was interesting, in that it is kind of the opposite of how I'm feeling. I don't mean that as a criticism -- I actually did vote for Troy's MC entry. But I'm not trying to do what other people would like. I'm trying to do what I think is good, but do it better. Both require criticism from others, but it's a different kind of criticism. And while I've definitely gotten some really useful criticism on some of my stuff, I'd have to say that a lot of it has been in the direction of "here's what to do to make more people like it" rather than "here's what to do to make it more effective at what it's trying to do." I have the luxury of doing this as a hobby, so I don't have to sell anything. I'm grateful for that, and certainly don't begrudge anyone trying to make their work more saleable.
And ghinson is spot on in saying that giving a really good critique is hard to do. Getting good at critiquing helps you understand what you are trying to do, also.
So, I'm actually a bit frustrated. While I love how the folks on dgrin are so supportive and encouraging, I've had trouble finding "kindred souls" who value similar things that I do in a photo.
Hope that didn't sound too whiny.
www.photographyjones.com
I'm with you on seeing things a bit different than the masses. I'm often suprised at what finishes well and what finishes down the rung. I have one photo friend not on this board and he often reminds me that as a hobbyist your photo only has to please you.
But I still value the input of others and the different view of any of the photos. Learning tons thanks to those that take the time to comment. It's up to any of us on how we choose to use that new info.
In the Challenges my work seems to polarise opinion quite a lot. I've had a lot of top 5 places, a 2nd on a Mega, and lots of my entries have also bombed badly. I don't get many mid-place results
I also often find myself disagreeing with the voting, so I assume my tastes aren't always "populist", but this is neither a good a bad thing, it just is what it is. I couldn't imagine myself producing work just to please other people, unless they are paying me of course, which probably isn't the right attitude for competitions. I am my own worst critic, and am always trying to improve my skills, so I do welcome constructive criticism, even if I disagree with it sometimes.
Competition critiques are very different to a general critique of an image, because you have to take into account a theme as well as the individual merits of the image. I know I've bombed on at least one competition because my image title completely threw people, I found that out through feedback, and it was something I'd never previously thought about. I'm slowly working out that there are people who are on a similar wavelength to me re. photography, and others who are on a different planet entirely, but this is life in general too.
Time is a huge issue for me. Time to critique the work of others, time to comment generally on Dgrin, time to get to know other Dgrinners, etc etc. But thanks again to everyone who has taken part in this thread. Whatever our differences we all share a passion for photography, and that is a very good thing
2 thoughts here.
1. Maybe your participation has helped you come to the realization that what you're trying to do is a bit different than what others make popular. That would be a good thing to know and one value of your participation here. In our local arts community, I have a friend that shows at the same gallery that I do. She is an excellent fine arts photographer, is technically very sound, produces nearly perfect prints, is well-trained and even lectures on photography. Then there's me. I have no training. Have a very populist style. Produce landscapes that are almost hyper-realistic, nostalgic, and have a little more of a wow factor. In the gallery, I outsell her (not that there are many photography sales anyway). But her work was chosen for a solo show at a well-known museum of photography in Boston last year. What this means is, do what you do. Find your style. If it results in personal satisfaction, a few gallery sales, or a museum show, it's worth it. And it is all good when it is just a hobby!
2. I've noticed that the challenges are a little bit of a popularity contest. If there are two images that you are equally drawn to, and one of them is from someone you know, who has participated for a while, and hasn't had a win, and was submitted after you helped form the image via pre-challenge criticism, you vote for that image. So submitting something for critique, participating in the community, helps with votes. Is that bad? No. Who cares. It's not like there are cash prizes. It's all about the learning. About the interaction and participation.
ackdoc.com
This is also what I consider while voting, forgot to mention it above.
I would also like to comment on how honest this group is here, I have personally witnessed other 'contests' getting out of hand with member voting used for judging. Not once in the last several years that I have participated here have I seen it happen. Great group of people!
I just have a small rinky dink of a camera, but I'm learning how to make the most of it. Some day when I grow up
I just want to say a deep and heartfelt thank you to everyone here.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
In my humble opinion we are placed here on earth to help each other. And to learn from each other. To me it is more enjoyable to be able share what knowledge I have and learn from others to add to my knowledge base. When I as a newbie to photography get different or conflicting input I really enjoy trying both inputs to see what works for me. Sometime the conflicts just means that what works for one dose not work for the next. I have also found that I might take a little from this idea a little from that one and a little from my idea and come up with one heck of a finished product.
So, I find all input as valuable.
Thank you so much for this thought provoking thread.
Love & Prayers
Darryl
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I think right/wrong is best thought of in terms of, "Is this more, or less, like what I'm striving to do?" If we can't ever say we did something wrong, we never learn how to do better. You can't have a better without a worse. In art, however, we don't have to insist that our "better" has to be everyone's "better."
That's a great point, Greg. It certainly has. However, don't sell yourself short as a "populist photographer."
www.photographyjones.com
And then there's the comment that makes you realize how much your personal life shows through in your photos. Billseye, part of your comment on my entry this time ("evoking a dark and mellow mood") made me realize what a funk I've been in lately - very busy with year end & taxes (should be working now), my lost kitty (still missing) & other personal stresses have been weighing on me. Definitely a dark & mellow period in my life! I'm sure that is why I chose to enter the darker moody shot over other shots I took with different & brighter lighting, but would not have realized it without your comment.
A photograph is an artistic expression of life, captured one moment at a time . . .
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