flash with bouncer

Bountyphotographer

yes, I read a bunch of thread with lots of very interesting info (thanks Ziggy and many other)

First question is:

Do I really need to use a fill flash (I got the canon 580 II) when available light is available?

Second question :


If so why not use a cheap $10 ish plastic box on top of flash?
Ive seen so many diffuser like soft,extra soft box,business card,bouncer (diy)...............
Im looking forward to do more portrait outdoor and when using my 580 often time its too bright.
I just use the go - 2stop compensation on my canon 30 D and eventually -1 stop on my flash and voila............I know it's crazy. I also was told that whatever you put on your flash the camera will try to compensate??Whats the point, then?
What would be best for outdoor portrait without having to spend 5 minutes setting the camera and flash?????????????

Art Scott

If you have read a bunch of threads on the topic then in one of those threads there was a link to a really good flash bounce device that Ziggy 53 shows examples of what he has done with it and to make costs prob less than $10 and can be stored in very little room and it can't be broken because it is made of craft foam...

You should use fill lighting at every possible chance...whether that is a fill flash or a bounce reflector, i do not like harsh light so I use gold reflectors no silver or white...I like the warmth of the gold reflectors and this usually means some sort of assistant has to be with me....... but fill light opens up shadowed areas and makes images much more pleasing...I llike gold reflectors and since I shoot Nikon so I have the i-TTL (intelligent TTL) much like Canons E-TTL, I think..I know with supplied "Stofen" cap it does a great job if it is not totally direct flash...I often shoot with my flash on a light stand shooting thru the "Stofen Cap" diffuser......it came with my flash so I use it, I would not have bought one...

jmho

ziggy53

Yes, flash can be used for both key and/or fill light outdoors. Both of the following are from outdoors and used an external flash with scoop modifier. Conditions were "open shade" for both:





Here are a couple from a reception last year. I used external flash with a scoop modifier, as well as a couple of studio strobes, high and angled up to skim the tent ceiling for some rim lighting:

This particular image has available light plus the rim light to camera right (did not use the external flash):

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This image has the skim light coming from camera left, plus external flash with modifier as key light (plus a white vignette and other stuff):

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This image is just the external flash plus modifier:

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The following pair are both outtakes, for multiple reasons, and SOOC. They demonstrate how much difference the flash makes:





I would greatly prefer the version with the flash, if they were otherwise identical. The version with the flash and scoop is a little "bright", but easily recovered from the RAW file.

Nikolai

In addition to what Ziggy said....

Here in SoCal available light is most often bad. I mean *BAD*. Like, the worst possible, unless you're talking sunrise/sunset or a reliable shade. The latter, unfortunately immediately makes the light very dull, just like a heavy overcast. Flash, if used properly, would turn the sun from your worst enemy into your best friend, providing a free ambient light and a nice (and also free) hair light, leaving you in complete charge of the fill/key.

Bountyphotographer

Great I hear you all flash + accessories are our friends
However what is the difference between the plastic rectangle (stofen I believe) and the ziggy scoop modified?
It seems to me that if there is not a huge difference the stofen would be easier to carry around

Bounty

ziggy53

Bountyphotographer wrote: »

... Second question :


If so why not use a cheap $10 ish plastic box on top of flash?
Ive seen so many diffuser like soft,extra soft box,business card,bouncer (diy)...............
Im looking forward to do more portrait outdoor and when using my 580 often time its too bright.
I just use the go - 2stop compensation on my canon 30 D and eventually -1 stop on my flash and voila............I know it's crazy. ...

Bountyphotographer wrote: »

Great I hear you all flash + accessories are our friends
However what is the difference between the plastic rectangle (stofen I believe) and the ziggy scoop modified?
It seems to me that if there is not a huge difference the stofen would be easier to carry around

Bounty

"Dome" flash diffusors, like the Sto-Fen and LightSphere and similar, turn your flash into an "omni" light source that throws light "everywhere" (or bounce plus omni fill, in the case of the Light Sphere without the inverted dome). In some circumstances, like with the light tucked into the corner of a room or hallway, and where the walls and ceiling are white, you can get very pleasing results.

In most other circumstances it is a poor choice because it:

A) Wastes a lot of light by throwing the light everywhere, costing you in terms of output power, recycle time and battery power.

The resulting light spill gets reflected off any colored walls or ceiling and will light poison the shot.

C) The dome devices tend to be too small for direct diffusion (Sto-Fen) or bulky (LightSphere "classic").

D) Dome devices tend to be designed for a single sized flash head.

A "scoop" modifier:

• A) Catches more of the flash output, redirecting it forward "towards your subject(s)". There is some light spill but it is mostly forward and above, so any coloration from the surroundings will only affect the hair and rim light effect, if applicable.
  
• It's a much more efficient use of the flash power, resulting in reasonable recycle times and batter power.
  
• C) The diffuser size is larger than the above modifiers, resulting in softer shadows and better wrapping of light around the subject.
  
• D) The majority of the redirected light from the flash is redirected from the top of the scoop, creating a larger distance from the lens, resulting in more natural looking light directionality (versus the above modifiers).
  
• E) Cheap and fast to DIY. You can build a scoop modifier with around $3USD of materials and less than 15 minutes of time.
  
• F) The scoop design can fit any flash head. This is vital to me as I use more than a dozen different compact flashes in my work (around 5 different head sizes*).
  
• G) It's very tight and grips the head, holding well in the wind.
  
• H) The scoop is very light, and doesn't put a strain on the flash head or loose head position easily.

Bountyphotographer wrote: »

... I also was told that whatever you put on your flash the camera will try to compensate??Whats the point, then?
What would be best for outdoor portrait without having to spend 5 minutes setting the camera and flash?????????????

If you do use an FEC offset (flash exposure compensation), the offset should hold regardless of modifier. The diffusion qualities of the flash modifier will still improve the quality of the light coming from the flash, but at -2 FEC the visible differences in light quality are pretty much mute.

In other words, for a fill flash, set to -2 FEC or lower, you don't need a diffusion modifier. (That also goes for a manually adjusted flash with a contribution of 2-stops less than the key light.)

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*(Canon 580EX, Sigma EF DG Super 5xx series, Sunpak 383 Super, Vivitar 285, Osram V250 Studio)

Bountyphotographer

clapclap
Thank you
Touche like they say in my former country.
Sometimes I just want to quit smugmug to get my own website, but the knowledge and fast reply that you Ziggy 53 and other are providing is PRICELESS (not sure if one can be with dgrin without being with smugmug)

You made my week.

clapclap

Moving Pictures

As a recent convert to the scoop - buy some craft foam and some peel-and-stick velcro. I made a portable, collapsable gizmo that ran me less than four bucks.

Icebear

Bountyphotographer wrote: »

clapclap
Thank you
Touche like they say in my former country.
Sometimes I just want to quit smugmug to get my own website, but the knowledge and fast reply that you Ziggy 53 and other are providing is PRICELESS (not sure if one can be with dgrin without being with smugmug)

You made my week.

clapclap

For what it's worth, you can certainly enjoy DGrin without using SmugMug, but why would you? SM is awesome and is infinitely (well, that may be a teeny exaggeration) customizable.

Bountyphotographer

I have to do the scoop, for I was shooting with my 580 EX canon flash this week-end inside and ALL the pictures were overexposed.
I had to crank down camera and flash compensation. Its either too much light or barely enough to have a decent picture.
I thought that a camera and flash were smart enoug to adjust the correct lighting, I guess not.

Nikolai

Bountyphotographer wrote: »

I have to do the scoop, for I was shooting with my 580 EX canon flash this week-end inside and ALL the pictures were overexposed.
I had to crank down camera and flash compensation. Its either too much light or barely enough to have a decent picture.
I thought that a camera and flash were smart enoug to adjust the correct lighting, I guess not.

Should be an operator mistake. ETTL doesn't care what modifier you use. It reads whatever it is on the pre-flash and then use it on the 2d (primary) flash. Bouncer, scoop, ceiling, direct... doesn't matter. What does matter though is if you blocked the reader (red glass) part with the velcro, thus limiting amount of incoming light and forcing it to think it is much darker...
Jussayin'...

ziggy53

Bountyphotographer wrote: »

I have to do the scoop, for I was shooting with my 580 EX canon flash this week-end inside and ALL the pictures were overexposed.
I had to crank down camera and flash compensation. Its either too much light or barely enough to have a decent picture.
I thought that a camera and flash were smart enoug to adjust the correct lighting, I guess not.

What camera body and what settings on the camera?

Do you have image samples, with full EXIF, of the problems?

Bountyphotographer

SORRY I meant to say that the first pictures were overexposed so I cranked down the camera and flash compensation. After that it was fine.
My theory was that the flash shouldn t be that bright at all since its ETTL.
Canon 30 D (am getting the 7 D soon) Av priority fully open, not sure about the rest.
Next time Ill write it down.
I usually erase the bad pics.
Next time I'll be more careful

Bountyphotographer

Right you are Nicolai
I shall practice and observe in order to learn and only the strongest will survive, indeed.

Thank you all for your comments

bounty