An entry level FF from Canon this year? Just when I was ready to buy the 5DmkIII...

eoren1

Just saw this posted on Canonrumors.com: http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/

He states it is a CR2 and comes from his most reliable source. I just don't see what could be coming. The 5DmkII is already in the $1800-2000 range. Doesn't seem smart to replace a camera with such a strong following that is selling well.

Also likely means the 5DmkIII's price can't/won't be lowered as they have to leave room for this "entry level" model..

I know you can go crazy waiting for the next thing in electronics but coming on the heels of the just released 5DmkIII at a fairly high price point, this is a very interesting/curious development...

eoren1

Posted this right after reading through the forum discussion there. The price point was not part of the cr2 level rumor - just talk of it being entry level. Fixed my title but it did not change on the forums main page. Sorry for the presumption in the title.

Sam

I was talking to CPS the other day and they said the 5D II would continue to be supported and offered for sale.

Ether they look at the 5D II to be a less expensive / now entry level FF, or they have a lot of 5D II inventory.

Sam

eoren1

I guess the possibility is that they want to consolidate sensor use so they will use the 5DmkIII's new sensor, cheapen the body to be more plastic, use a xxD caliber autofocus (or keep the 5DmkII's).

I do wonder if it'll inherit any of what the mkIII introduced - AEB with 7 brackets, electronic level, etc

My problem now is that I would be probably be quite happy with an entry level FF camera. I don't need pro-level AF but wanted a number of the other features in the mkIII that may well trickle down to the next model. Now the decision is whether it is worth waiting 6 months or until the next rumors pop up and flush this thing out some more.

DavidTO

eoren1 wrote: »

Posted this right after reading through the forum discussion there. The price point was not part of the cr2 level rumor - just talk of it being entry level. Fixed my title but it did not change on the forums main page. Sorry for the presumption in the title.

Mods have to make that change, which I did for you.

Matthew Saville

I think that since they've merged the 1-series lineup, Canon definitely has room for one more. Either they go for a "60D w/ full-frame sensor", or they go for a D800-killer, a 5D mk2 body with 35-40 megapixels.

Same thing with Nikon. The D4 and D800 are just two; Nikon is *able* (especially thanks to Sony) ...to have three FF bodies in production at once. So Nikon is probably also <12 months away from a lower-megapixel, D7000-FX type body.

The only thing is, I don't know how Canon could charge $2K for a 35-40 megapixel D800 killer. Probably more like the 5D mk2's MSRP of $2700.

Canon's best bet at hitting $2K is the 5D mk2 already in production. Crappy AF and other specs, gorgeous sensor and images. It's a Canon tradition! We already have a FF 7D, and it's $3500.

=Matt=

Matthew Saville

eoren1 wrote: »

I guess the possibility is that they want to consolidate sensor use so they will use the 5DmkIII's new sensor, cheapen the body to be more plastic, use a xxD caliber autofocus (or keep the 5DmkII's).

I do wonder if it'll inherit any of what the mkIII introduced - AEB with 7 brackets, electronic level, etc

My problem now is that I would be probably be quite happy with an entry level FF camera. I don't need pro-level AF but wanted a number of the other features in the mkIII that may well trickle down to the next model. Now the decision is whether it is worth waiting 6 months or until the next rumors pop up and flush this thing out some more.

That does sound possible, actually. 60D AF, or 7D maybe, and half 5D mk2, half mk3. (5D3 sensor, dual card slots, and other gimmicks, but 5D mk2 or worse body build / sealing etc.)

I think they're going to continue to try and recycle as many parts as possible, though.

ziggy53

Sam wrote: »

I was talking to CPS the other day and they said the 5D II would continue to be supported and offered for sale.

Ether they look at the 5D II to be a less expensive / now entry level FF, or they have a lot of 5D II inventory.

Sam

That's my understanding, that Canon has a fair number of 5D MKII bodies to sell. It would not make sense for Canon to come up with a self-competing FF model until the 5D MKII cycles out.

divamum

There's also been a rumour (a while back, however) that there would be no 7d MkII. I honestly can't imagine them bringing on a THIRD FF if they expect to continue production of the 5dII, but perhaps there are plans to bring in a FF to run alongside the 7dII if there is one?

Who knows, at this point. The only thing stopping me from jumping on a 5dIII pretty fast is the flippin' price point - if it were $2500-2800, I'd be planning one by early summer; as it is, I need to save a bit longer and/or go the stepping-stone route. Still musing on all of this, although the early reports from 5dIII folks are enough to make just about anybody salivate - it looks like an absolutely incredible camera!!

eoren1

I really doubt we'll see a 7D mk II - I think Canon will consolidate the line with the 70D and bring in some/most of the 7D's improvements to the xxD line.

I'm with you on the price point. $3500 for the 5DmkIII is not a terrible price judging by the early reports. That being said, it may well be more camera than I need. I would be perfectly happy with the 1Dx or 5Diii sensor in a lighter/cheaper body with 4 fps and a better than 5Dii but less robust than 5Diii AF module. Could also do without the SD slot but would want some of the other benefits of the new Digic 5 which presumably is responsible for things like AEB (finally more than 3 shot sequences!)

Trouble is, now that I know I want a FF camera and have shot with one, it's really hard to pick up that 50D... Plus I already have the 17-40 heading my way...

divamum

Actually going 7>70 would make sense even with the moniker - I could imagine that at both technological and marketing level.

In the meantime, we're still "stuck" waiting! I'm not sorry I'm not part of this first wave/shipment because there are always - ALWAYS - "first run model" issues (I had a first year model car once - NEVER AGAIN ), but the III is looking beyond promising.

Internaut

It would be interesting to see if Canon can put a model on the market that gives full frame the critical mass to move prices down. Rather than demographically cripple it, I'd expect Canon to produce a plastic model, no weather sealing, inferior viewfinder but with essentially the same imaging as the 5DIII. If they can manage this, and put the new camera out at a price point where they sell enough to drive down the cost of full frame sensor manufacturing, then Canon would be onto a winner.

jmphotocraft

I think waiting would be a big gamble. A few points to that... If they indeed have stock of 5DIIs to sell off, you will be waiting a while. If they feel they need to respond to the D800, you will be waiting a while. How could Canon make a $1800 - $2000 FF body that is any better than the 5DII? Seems doubtful they would give it the 5D3 or 1DX sensor. I suppose it could have the 60D's AF and articulating LCD. The latter is of little use to me, and the former is not a huge improvement (assuming 60D AF = 40D AF). Or I suppose it could have the 7D AF, but that would cannibalize 5D3 sales unless they made it <4fps.

I dunno. Seems the megapixel war is back on, so a D800 competitor seems like a safer bet. And that will be at least $3k. I think maybe the 5DII is the "affordable" FF Canon camera now.

Besides, what interest does Canon have in making FF really affordable? They are "all in" with their APS-C lens lineup.

Matthew Saville

jmphotocraft wrote: »

I think waiting would be a big gamble. A few points to that... If they indeed have stock of 5DIIs to sell off, you will be waiting a while. If they feel they need to respond to the D800, you will be waiting a while. How could Canon make a $1800 - $2000 FF body that is any better than the 5DII? Seems doubtful they would give it the 5D3 or 1DX sensor. I suppose it could have the 60D's AF and articulating LCD. The latter is of little use to me, and the former is not a huge improvement (assuming 60D AF = 40D AF). Or I suppose it could have the 7D AF, but that would cannibalize 5D3 sales unless they made it <4fps.

I dunno. Seems the megapixel war is back on, so a D800 competitor seems like a safer bet. And that will be at least $3k. I think maybe the 5DII is the "affordable" FF Canon camera now.

Besides, what interest does Canon have in making FF really affordable? They are "all in" with their APS-C lens lineup.

Yep, there is no way Canon can make either an 18 / 22 MP camera for $2K, or a 35-40 MP camera for $2K, without seriously pissing off many 5D mk3 buyers.

=Matt=

chrisjohnson

Classic marketing ploy would be 15-20% between models to fill the shelf. So when Canon like to maintain the Mk3 price, and why would they not, they might like a poorer man's FF. There is a big gap between the 5D and 7D, maybe even enough for 2 new cameras. My expectation is that 60D and 7D as-is will drift down in price, leaving a nice market for FF pro-am segment for which more choice is required. I suspect the price of the Mk2 has eroded to the point at which it is not really profitable - especially given the $-Yen changes - so when stocks are gone it will disappear. They will not want to maintain old technology while volumes decrease.

I would not be surprised to see 7D getting a face-lift AND a cost-optimized FF. They might even decide to give the low-cost FF a big megapixel boost which would give the public even more to thnk about - still I suspect for volume/cost reasons they would prefer to optimize around the same sensor as the Mk3 and cut corners elsewhere. Perhaps they are waiting to see how the market reacts in the next few months. The howls of protest on the DPreview site reinforce my belief that they are leaving a major price point unaddressed. The Mk3 for a Canon person is a dream machine, but wow, I wish it was cheaper.

jmphotocraft

chrisjohnson wrote: »

Classic marketing ploy would be 15-20% between models to fill the shelf. So when Canon like to maintain the Mk3 price, and why would they not, they might like a poorer man's FF. There is a big gap between the 5D and 7D, maybe even enough for 2 new cameras. My expectation is that 60D and 7D as-is will drift down in price, leaving a nice market for FF pro-am segment for which more choice is required.

Again, what sort of "cheap" FF camera would be worth waiting for when you could just buy a 5D2 now for $2200?

I suspect the price of the Mk2 has eroded to the point at which it is not really profitable -

By now all the tooling and R&D that went into the 5D2 is paid for, so the price can still be profitable.

so when stocks are gone it will disappear. They will not want to maintain old technology while volumes decrease.

Perhaps. And when that happens I imagine they will come out with a $2000 FF body with an articulating LCD and 60D AF. Not really worth waiting for if you can have a 5D2 now, IMO.

I would not be surprised to see 7D getting a face-lift AND a cost-optimized FF.

The 7D is the APS-C flagship, they need it to promote their EF-S lens lineup. And amateur wildlife and sports shooters like it for the pixel density. It will not be going to FF.

Stuart-M

I hope they don't do this, as I want the 5D3 price to come down, and a cheap FF camera would not help that. TBH, there aren't any features on the 5D3 that I really want to give up for a cheaper alternative, although I could see the advantage for non pros who don't have the same demands or pressures.

If they do bring one out I suspect it will just be a 5D2 with the 5D3 sensor and non of the other features from the 5D3. I guess it would include compatibility with the new radio flashes as well. The body will probably still be metal as it needs to be fairly large for a full frame sensor, and a large plastic camera would be very breakable. It would make a good FF backup, but then so does your old 5D2!

I could see the 7D replacement being a 70D with a new crop sensor and otherwise similar features to the current one.

That's my predictions FWIW.

eoren1

The more I think about this the more I believe that Canon will try to break the $2000 barrier with FF. Much like they did with breaking the $1000 with a digital SLR years ago.
Once new 5Dii stock is out, the 5Diii sensor will go into a cheaper build body with all the basics. It well may have the original 5Dii's AF as you can't just take an aps-c AF module and slap it in. Digic 5 for better on board jpg and noise reduction. Minimal R&D costs.
At that price point for a "new" model vs essentially the same camera but now almost 4 years old 5Dii, I think they have a blockbuster and huge new market for lenses.

divamum

In a way, not unlike what they did with the 7d/60d....

jmphotocraft

That's reasonable, but I think you'll be waiting a significant amount of time for that. Like maybe a year. Seems like several other things are "due" out from Canon, like a D800 beater (which will also serve as the 1DsIII replacement, but in the size of a 5D3) an EVIL system, a new Rebel, an S1X, and for some strange reason the 7D crowd thinks they are owed a Mark II even though they aren't. I don't think it would be worth the wait, vs buying a 5D2 now. I can tell you though - the 5D3 AF is really satisfying. If you can make it happen, go for it.

eoren1

I do plan on getting the 5Diii once a proper raw converter is out, LR comes out with 4.1 (likely to occur at same time) and reviews come in - though the ones on dgrin thus far have been great

DeVerm

What I would love to see is the 5D3 with new design improved ISO performance crop sensor and 7D2 label

pmaxwell

Finding a 5D mkiii (body only)is proving difficult right now. Local retailer wants money up front with a undetermined shipping date. Amazon is saying 1–2 months, B&H isn't saying at all

jmphotocraft

DeVerm wrote: »

What I would love to see is the 5D3 with new design improved ISO performance crop sensor and 7D2 label

yeah but then it would be about 8.6mp.

adbsgicom

pmaxwell wrote: »

Finding a 5D mkiii (body only)is proving difficult right now. Local retailer wants money up front with a undetermined shipping date. Amazon is saying 1–2 months, B&H isn't saying at all

Precision Camera in Austin posted that they had 3 in stock yesterday. They may be gone now.

divamum

And I see Amazon and others still listing the kit w/24-105L in stock.

jmphotocraft

Another reason to buy local. My store had the kit, but they gladly removed the lens for me and sold me the body for the body-only price.

pmaxwell

I know what you mean by local service, but unfortunately the only local remaining (Penn Camera went out of business) isn't big enough to consider stocking professional bodies (their words when I stopped by)

ThatCanonGuy

pmaxwell wrote:

I know what you mean by local service, but unfortunately the only local remaining (Penn Camera went out of business) isn't big enough to consider stocking professional bodies (their words when I stopped by)

Off topic, but Calumet bought Penn Camera, so a few locations are staying.


Linky:
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/lp/PennCameraCalumetPhotographic.cfm