Unhappy Customer - head shots

ccs

Hi Everyone,

Im in need of some candid feedback. I took some pictures for a real-estate agent who asked for photos that made him look professional but relaxed, and with a couple of different backgrounds, outdoors. During the consult I knew a key challenge with this client would be making him look relaxed (he's apparently also a high-level kick boxer who likes to climb in the Himalayas as a casual workout). Anyway, we discussed using the sides of buildings, and also using a white backdrop for the head shots. I mentioned we would use 3-4 different backgrounds so that he could pick his favourite.

He has responded saying he doesn't like any of the photos and that they are unprofessional. It's pretty clear he's not going to pay his invoice. (For head shots, I've been in the practice of letting the client pay after the fact - perhaps something I should change?!). I have asked for what he doesn't like, and his response was ' I don't like the backgrounds; there are shadows in the pictures; the shoots are professionally unacceptable; and I simply don't like them'.... Well, he also called them complete shit. In response, I offered to re-do the white background shots, where I agree there are a couple of shadows on the face.

In my opinion, the outdoor pictures turned out all right; the white backdrop pictures were not ultimately lit properly, and there is a shadow or two that the client doesn't like on his face (which is why I offered to re do them).

I need some candid feedback. Are ALL of these pictures terrible? Should I be letting this client off the hook, given the consult chat I had with the client?

Here's the gallery:http://www.quarkview.com/Clients/Doug-W/
password: williams

Thanks for your input!

Chris

Crewd

Hey Chris,

Overall I would say that your work here is good -- though your work shown in most of the other galleries on your site is better. That being said -- unless you're charging top of the industry rates he got his monies worth I think.

I would agree that the white background shots are the worst of the bunch, though not for the reasons you mentioned. They're a little low contrasty for my tastes and the the facial expressions / body positioning strikes me as a bit weird. #12 looks a bit flat as well -- as if it was over recover'ied.

1, 2, and 6 are my favorites. I reallly like the background and posing in 6 but would love to see some of the color brought out more.

If I were you I would offer to reshoot one location / look for free to try and salvage the client -- but would absolutely not let him off the hook unless there was something in your original agreement pertaining to that.

-Patrick

smurfy

They are fine. Seven, with shadows, is my favorite. Men of his age are not generally flat lit.

He should pay his bill.

ccs

Crewd wrote: »

Hey Chris,

Overall I would say that your work here is good -- though your work shown in most of the other galleries on your site is better. That being said -- unless you're charging top of the industry rates he got his monies worth I think.

I would agree that the white background shots are the worst of the bunch, though not for the reasons you mentioned. They're a little low contrasty for my tastes and the the facial expressions / body positioning strikes me as a bit weird. #12 looks a bit flat as well -- as if it was over recover'ied.

1, 2, and 6 are my favorites. I reallly like the background and posing in 6 but would love to see some of the color brought out more.

If I were you I would offer to reshoot one location / look for free to try and salvage the client -- but would absolutely not let him off the hook unless there was something in your original agreement pertaining to that.


-Patrick

Thank-you for your detailed feedback! I should have mentioned, that although I spent some time post-processing (in particular cleaning up some scars on his face), these were proofs (for him to choose from), and I agree with your feedback that some additional color in 6 and the flatness of 12 could have been fixed. Thanks again!

ccs

smurfy wrote: »

They are fine. Seven, with shadows, is my favorite. Men of his age are not generally flat lit.

He should pay his bill.

Good point.. thank-you.

ccs

What Im not sure of is, should I in general be getting people to sign contracts then, in advance, or should I keep to my usual system where I get them to pay after? What do other people out there do? I have never had this problem before - and I liked waiting to deliver the product before sending the bill. Maybe I've got it backwards - or maybe I should ask for a deposit for head shots like I would for a wedding.

Crewd

ccs wrote: »

Thank-you for your detailed feedback! I should have mentioned, that although I spent some time post-processing (in particular cleaning up some scars on his face), these were proofs (for him to choose from), and I agree with your feedback that some additional color in 6 and the flatness of 12 could have been fixed. Thanks again!

Oh! they're proofs? In that case they are perfectly fine and he needs to pay his bill!

Good luck!

-Patrick

Crewd

ccs wrote: »

What Im not sure of is, should I in general be getting people to sign contracts then, in advance, or should I keep to my usual system where I get them to pay after? What do other people out there do? I have never had this problem before - and I liked waiting to deliver the product before sending the bill. Maybe I've got it backwards - or maybe I should ask for a deposit for head shots like I would for a wedding.

The only clients that I don't require full payments up front for are weddings and other large events. And even those are half as a non refundable retainer up front.

I would never want to be in the position of having to negotiate after I've already gone through the time and effort of doing the job. Scary thought. Ick

So yeah as a minimum take half up front. Thats a very standard business practice for a service industry.

-Patrick

ccs

Crewd wrote: »

The only clients that I don't require full payments up front for are weddings and other large events. And even those are half as a non refundable retainer up front.

I would never want to be in the position of having to negotiate after I've already gone through the time and effort of doing the job. Scary thought. Ick

So yeah as a minimum take half up front. Thats a very standard business practice for a service industry.

-Patrick

Thank-you for this. Yeah, I think I knew this in the back of my mind somewhere, but always liked being able to run the head shots side more like a restaurant kind of 'service industry'. haha I don't know why though, now that I say it. I have a bad feeling that's finally caught up with me. DO you sign contracts with all your clients as well then? I usually only do that for larger shoots. Maybe time to change.

Best,
Chris

Crewd

I have a few different contracts that I have ready to go for different situations.

Weddings and big events have the longest most exhaustive contract that covers every base my lawyer and I could think of... and even then I still think of things to add from time to time (usually after getting screwed some how, lol).

Simple one offs get a one pager that basically says what I'm providing, covering a few of the what ifs, how much they're paying, and either selling or retaining the copyright. I dont want to intimidate the client with this one but I dont want to get sued either. BTW: For smaller jobs like this I usually ask for the full amount up front. I just dont like messing with money at all later in the game and the time of the contract signing is a good one to ask for the $$$.

I also have one specifically for bags of feminine cleansing products associated with a summers eve. Usually if I've had trouble with a client in the past or if I get a shady feeling from someone looking for work I'll give them this one. It's basically the event contract tightened up on rules for retainers, refunds, and what ifs and lets me specify what I'm going to provide. My summer's eve line of contracts always gets full payment up front, even for large events.

I hope this helps.

I would love it if there was some kind of dgrin'ers contract repository where we could all collaborate to create awesome contracts... Anyone know of something like this? I'm not above starting a wiki for us all to use...


In Short: Do I ever work without a contract of some size? No; unless you're close friends and family.

-Patrick

ccs

Crewd wrote: »

I have a few different contracts that I have ready to go for different situations.

Weddings and big events have the longest most exhaustive contract that covers every base my lawyer and I could think of... and even then I still think of things to add from time to time (usually after getting screwed some how, lol).

Simple one offs get a one pager that basically says what I'm providing, covering a few of the what ifs, how much they're paying, and either selling or retaining the copyright. I dont want to intimidate the client with this one but I dont want to get sued either. BTW: For smaller jobs like this I usually ask for the full amount up front. I just dont like messing with money at all later in the game and the time of the contract signing is a good one to ask for the $$$.

I also have one specifically for bags of feminine cleansing products associated with a summers eve. Usually if I've had trouble with a client in the past or if I get a shady feeling from someone looking for work I'll give them this one. It's basically the event contract tightened up on rules for retainers, refunds, and what ifs and lets me specify what I'm going to provide. My summer's eve line of contracts always gets full payment up front, even for large events.

I hope this helps.

I would love it if there was some kind of dgrin'ers contract repository where we could all collaborate to create awesome contracts... Anyone know of something like this? I'm not above starting a wiki for us all to use...


In Short: Do I ever work without a contract of some size? No; unless you're close friends and family.

-Patrick

Hey, thanks again for the feedback. I think starting a wiki on this is a great idea. Perhaps you'd be best positioned to start it up! I would be more than happy to contribute based on my experiences.
Cheers,
Chris

Art Scott

I looked them over and what I think your client was calling unpro is because they are so loosely cropped....all the business portraits in my area, especially for realtors, Drs., Attorneys are tight cropped.... he can view extra large size of these images and that is good enuff to screen grab and make business cards with and even some flyers....and I bet he knows someone with Photoshop or genuine fractals that will uprez the images....you have no water mark on the images and that makes them easy prey for anyone to steal and use...

ccs

Art Scott wrote: »

I looked them over and what I think your client was calling unpro is because they are so loosely cropped....all the business portraits in my area, especially for realtors, Drs., Attorneys are tight cropped.... he can view extra large size of these images and that is good enuff to screen grab and make business cards with and even some flyers....and I bet he knows someone with Photoshop or genuine fractals that will uprez the images....you have no water mark on the images and that makes them easy prey for anyone to steal and use...

Fair enough! If I caught him doing that, I would enjoy taking him to
Court, not for the $200 bucks or whatever, but mainly the principle! I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Kikoprice

Hi Chris,
Im sorry but I dont like them. The shadow from the bridge of his nose into his eye is distracting, I think its in every shot. This guy is an athlete and a Type A personality, I would of shot him with his shoulders more square to the camera and filled in that shadow, made him look a little more of what he thinks he looks like. I wouldnt of shown him uncropped proofs either.

Thats my 2 cents worth of C&C.
Frank

ccs

Kikoprice wrote: »

Hi Chris,
Im sorry but I dont like them. The shadow from the bridge of his nose into his eye is distracting, I think its in every shot. This guy is an athlete and a Type A personality, I would of shot him with his shoulders more square to the camera and filled in that shadow, made him look a little more of what he thinks he looks like. I wouldnt of shown him uncropped proofs either.

Thats my 2 cents worth of C&C.
Frank

Thanks for the candid input. In this case, because he had particularly large ears (in particular, that spread away from his head significantly), I attempted to reduce their visibility by turning him from the camera. But perhaps the big ears was more of an issue for me than him!

Note that he also specifically asked for friendly, casual, but professional shots. My interoperation of that was to remove any possible intimidation factors associated with being an overbearing kick boxer / type A who might scare off some clients.

coastphoto

I tend to agree that the white background shots have a very distracting shadow that i do not like at all. but the others look fine.

On question i have is how did you get the nice rounded corners of the square thumbnails. I really like that customization.

Thanks

ccs

coastphoto wrote: »

I tend to agree that the white background shots have a very distracting shadow that i do not like at all. but the others look fine.

On question i have is how did you get the nice rounded corners of the square thumbnails. I really like that customization.

Thanks

Do you mean the album thumbnails?

perroneford

Ok, I've just had a look at these. I am not a professional portrait photographer though I've done quite a bit of work.

I can see why your client would have issues with these. There are a few things that stood out to me.

1. For most of the images, DOF was FAR too deep. They look more like snapshots than pro level portraits.

2. It looked like your artificial light source(s) were FAR too small. For a man of this age, I would have chosen a fairly large softbox or similar placed about arm's length away. The nose shadow most are commenting on would come from placing a light at eye height or so. That light should be coming from about 10-12ft and dropping that shadow softly down the cheek. In fact, I'd probablly shoot these QUITE flat with hardly any shadow.

4. It is generally not flattering to shoot outdoor portraits with anyone against a background. If you are doing fashion work, that's one thing. But for head shots, give him some depth. There should be nothing within 30ft of him, and preferably more like 100ft

5. The shots on infinity white have overexposed backgrounds, the subject is getting bounceback light from being too close to the background, and the lighting on them is harsh, coming from too small a source, and somewhat poorly placed.

If I were the client for these photos, I might be upset about being charged for them. As a photographer, I'd refund any money I'd charged, apologize, and go on my way. I've had bad shoots. But I have never in my life charged anyone for a shoot where they were not happy with their results. I am far more critical of my work than any client. If I wouldn't hang it in my home, I am not happy with it.

I hope these comments are not taken as harsh, but merely in the spirit intended. I recommend you apologize, move on, and work on your lighting a bit.

Out of curiousity, could you describe:

1. Your lighting sources?
2. How close the client was to the infinity white background?
3. Your height of the lights in the infinity white and the outdoor portraits?


Thank you, and I hope this situation works out well for you.

ccs wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

Im in need of some candid feedback. I took some pictures for a real-estate agent who asked for photos that made him look professional but relaxed, and with a couple of different backgrounds, outdoors. During the consult I knew a key challenge with this client would be making him look relaxed (he's apparently also a high-level kick boxer who likes to climb in the Himalayas as a casual workout). Anyway, we discussed using the sides of buildings, and also using a white backdrop for the head shots. I mentioned we would use 3-4 different backgrounds so that he could pick his favourite.

He has responded saying he doesn't like any of the photos and that they are unprofessional. It's pretty clear he's not going to pay his invoice. (For head shots, I've been in the practice of letting the client pay after the fact - perhaps something I should change?!). I have asked for what he doesn't like, and his response was ' I don't like the backgrounds; there are shadows in the pictures; the shoots are professionally unacceptable; and I simply don't like them'.... Well, he also called them complete shit. In response, I offered to re-do the white background shots, where I agree there are a couple of shadows on the face.

In my opinion, the outdoor pictures turned out all right; the white backdrop pictures were not ultimately lit properly, and there is a shadow or two that the client doesn't like on his face (which is why I offered to re do them).

I need some candid feedback. Are ALL of these pictures terrible? Should I be letting this client off the hook, given the consult chat I had with the client?

Here's the gallery:http://www.quarkview.com/Clients/Doug-W/
password: williams

Thanks for your input!

Chris

jonh68

I am going to agree with the customer on this one. Either refund the money or try to get another session. I don't see whay you would be worried about suppressing his "A type personalty". It only comes across as unnatural to go against type. The poses are unflattering as well as the backgrounds and lighting.

Also, given the amount of photos in the gallery, a little processing and cropping can go a long way in proofing. You need to give the client some idea of what the final image will look like. Just basic toning can work wonders.

The ones with the white background, on my monitor they look too cool. If the client was looking at them on an uncalibrated monitor which tend to be on the cool side, they would look really bad. The shadows are distracting. Either make the shadows bigger like Rembrandt lighting, or use more fill light. As is, the shadow is distracting.

saltykisses

If they were mine, I think I'd offer a reshoot, but certainly make sure you watermark before you show him!

The lighting is pretty harsh on his face, and he's squinting in a few, plus the shadows are a bit snapshotty, IMO. I don't mind the wood slats on the wall in a few but the concrete wall isn't doing anything for his image there. Typically concrete for high fashion/edgy/seniors..it doesn't really convey friendly neighborhood professional at all for me. The white background ones I am not sure I would even show, they are not appropriately lit. His face seems to be more relaxed in them though. And watch that middle finger holding the jacket...my eye went right to it. Why his middle? Either first, thumb, or a few fingers are okay, but the middle finger on its own looks awkward. You really have to direct even nit picky things when doing headshots, bc it's not about the location or the background, it's all about the person.

great clarity and color for the most part though! and your other work is REALLY neat. I loved looking at it!