Crit requested

NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
edited May 3, 2012 in Street and Documentary
I am exploring some ideas for a uni folio - 20 images. I'd like to do something based on people "found" around places where people are found.:D I think it's easy to see the direction I am heading off in with this very raw trial image, but would like to know what your gut reactions are. This particular example is static, and I think is considerably weakened by that, so I am going to hunt for shots with stronger gesture and movement. I would be very grateful for any comments you might have. Thanks.


i-7d9LFfR-X2.jpg









Neil
"Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

http://www.behance.net/brosepix
«13

Comments

  • RSLRSL Registered Users Posts: 839 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    My gut reaction, Neil, is that it's a fascinating piece of graphic art. What I get from it is a flash of a stoic kid in the midst of mind-numbing confusion. It's loaded with ambiguity. If I were curator at a modern art museum I'd ask you to make a very large print, and hang it. Or, better yet, wait for you to come out with enough similar work for a whole show. It's fine, creative work. BRAVO!
    Russ Lewis
    www.FineArtSnaps.com
  • bdcolenbdcolen Registered Users Posts: 3,804 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    I really can't comment on it as photography, because it is so far removed from the original photographic image that I can't even tell what the elements are. I'd go so far as to say that I would call it a photogram, or a photo illustration, thought I'm not sure of what. Yes, I see the boy's face, but because of the treatment, I'm not even really sure he was part of the original photo. What does all the post processing manipulation have to do with the concept of "people found" - which, in itself, is an interesting concept?
    bd@bdcolenphoto.com
    "He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan

    "The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    RSL wrote: »
    My gut reaction, Neil, is that it's a fascinating piece of graphic art. What I get from it is a flash of a stoic kid in the midst of mind-numbing confusion. It's loaded with ambiguity. If I were curator at a modern art museum I'd ask you to make a very large print, and hang it. Or, better yet, wait for you to come out with enough similar work for a whole show. It's fine, creative work. BRAVO!

    Russ, thanks very much for your feedback. I must say I am surprised by your so positive reaction, I don't feel quite so positive myself because I think there is some crudeness to it! But I do think the same about the idea in it as you do. So I am encouraged, and will try to finesse my techniques more. As I said I can imagine more drama in the character in focus is going to help the effect of these images a lot.

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • toragstorags Registered Users Posts: 4,615 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    well done Neil

    The human comp is tight facing center, the strong angular members give a sense of the maelstrom one might face in a subway

    I don't see it about people as much as the condition of close unpersonalized human interaction

    Nice work... Bravo is good
    Rags
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    bdcolen wrote: »
    I really can't comment on it as photography, because it is so far removed from the original photographic image that I can't even tell what the elements are. I'd go so far as to say that I would call it a photogram, or a photo illustration, thought I'm not sure of what. Yes, I see the boy's face, but because of the treatment, I'm not even really sure he was part of the original photo. What does all the post processing manipulation have to do with the concept of "people found" - which, in itself, is an interesting concept?

    (I see you have the earlier model of one of my current biggest temptations!mwink.gif)

    Point taken, bd! But we could argue till doomsday about where photography is true and virtuous and where it's a harlot! I'll listen to all views, but I'm no longer interested in investing in trying to draw the lines of authenticity and orthodoxy. I do what I do. It just so happens that I do it with photographs. It's that simple.

    Yes, what you see is data recorded in two photographs I took a few hours ago. I put the two sets of data together to see what dynamic I might discover they got up to. Though the two sets of data look a certain way because of the way they have been developed and combined, that is only in line with the inescapable necessity of photographic data of whatever kind to be developed, and put together with something, even if just a particular kind of paper.

    So, bd, I am much more interested in the take-home, than in being anxious about the making. The raw material of these images is light, that absolves me completely, I reckon!:D

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    torags wrote: »
    well done Neil

    The human comp is tight facing center, the strong angular members give a sense of the maelstrom one might face in a subway

    I don't see it about people as much as the condition of close unpersonalized human interaction

    Nice work... Bravo is good

    Thanks, Rags, it's encouraging that there is enough in the image to get that kind of reaction from you! As I said above it's a beginning trial of an idea and as yet crude. I am a bit daunted by how I am going to keep interest going over a series of 20 images! Well, we'll see I guess. For sure the critical thing is getting basic shots that are strong in emotion and movement. That's why I see them as essentially *street & PJ*.

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • toragstorags Registered Users Posts: 4,615 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    Hey Neil... a few words of defense of bd (recognizing he doesn't need it). I believe he comes from the mold of documentary photography & this is what this forum is for.

    What you have here is art using a camera.

    I'm for that & hope to get good at it once I learn my new download of CS6

    This forum is supposed to be for documentary photography & some with words (PJ) , but the mod (who is also the mod for other cool shots) gave a mixed message about what this forum is.

    My feeling is, this shot belongs in Other Cool Shots; for now.

    Then there should be a separate Art Forum to serve artistic photo overlays & merges; because that is the new photography frontier - supported by the new softwares.

    IMO
    Rags
  • black mambablack mamba Registered Users Posts: 8,323 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    There may be no other shooter on the forum that surprises me more than you do, Neil. You can present the most delicate of flowers with a tenderness of touch unmatched by others....then you can pound me almost senseless with an image as contorted as this one. You'll step out of a comfort zone as bravely and aggressively as anyone I know.clap.gif

    There's something very compelling about this image that fosters great expectations on my part as to where you will take this effort. I'm along for the ride and happy to be there.

    Cheers,

    Tom
    I always wanted to lie naked on a bearskin rug in front of a fireplace. Cracker Barrel didn't take kindly to it.
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    torags wrote: »
    Hey Neil... a few words of defense of bd (recognizing he doesn't need it). I believe he comes from the mold of documentary photography & this is what this forum is for.

    What you have here is art using a camera.

    I'm for that & hope to get good at it once I learn my new download of CS6

    This forum is supposed to be for documentary photography & some with words (PJ) , but the mod (who is also the mod for other cool shots) gave a mixed message about what this forum is.

    My feeling is, this shot belongs in Other Cool Shots; for now.

    Then there should be a separate Art Forum to serve artistic photo overlays & merges; because that is the new photography frontier - supported by the new softwares.

    IMO

    Yes, certainly bd is supremely capable of holding his ground unaided! And I understand what you are saying.

    For me the essence of Street and PJ doesn't lie in the "vehicle" in which it is delivered, but in what is delivered. The essence of S&PJ, I think, is communicating, with photographs, some morsel of the fascination of people one encounters. Artifice should be lacking from that encounter, but I am not convinced that artifice must be forbidden from its communication.

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • RSLRSL Registered Users Posts: 839 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    NeilL wrote: »
    I don't feel quite so positive myself because I think there is some crudeness to it! Neil

    I think the crudeness is an important part of it Neil. For heaven's sake, don't make it smooth and understandable.

    As far as BD's criticism is concerned, I ought to be shocked, but I'm not. About a year ago I was complaining about seeing all sorts of stuff on a forum named "Street and PJ" that was neither street nor PJ, and getting verbally whacked for saying so -- by BD along with others. But the problem is the name of the forum, not the material on it. If this really were a Street & PJ forum, only a tiny fraction of what's on here would be on it. But what difference does it make? There's some very good stuff on here that doesn't even remotely fall into either street or PJ categories.

    Yes, as BD said, strictly speaking what you did isn't even photography, but all of us photographers need to get outside the box they live in and embrace the whole world of visual art. You can learn a whole lot about photography from painting, printmaking, sculpture, anything that embodies an image.
    Russ Lewis
    www.FineArtSnaps.com
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    black mamba wrote: »
    There may be no other shooter on the forum that surprises me more than you do, Neil. You can present the most delicate of flowers with a tenderness of touch unmatched by others....then you can pound me almost senseless with an image as contorted as this one. You'll step out of a comfort zone as bravely and aggressively as anyone I know.clap.gif

    There's something very compelling about this image that fosters great expectations on my part as to where you will take this effort. I'm along for the ride and happy to be there.

    Cheers,

    Tom

    Thanks for the kind words, Tom! When I see that so many people, yourself included, are producing photographs that I could not improve on, I can't muster up much enthusiasm for just trying to match them, as much as I admire them. I learn a great deal from them, of course. This course I am doing, through which I am also being exposed to art history, and in particular the history of photography and its influential practitioners, puts me in a chronic crisis about where I stand in relation. It's very uncomfortable!:D

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • JavierJavier Registered Users Posts: 152 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    RSL wrote: »
    I ought to be shocked, but I'm not. About a year ago I was complaining about seeing all sorts of stuff on a forum named "Street and PJ" that was neither street nor PJ, and getting verbally whacked for saying so -- by BD along with others. But the problem is the name of the forum, not the material on it. If this really were a Street & PJ forum, only a tiny fraction of what's on here would be on it. But what difference does it make? There's some very good stuff on here that doesn't even remotely fall into either street or PJ categories.

    While street photography is tough to get an actual definition on, this is clearly not it nor photo journalism.
    I agree with what you said as well. There is a whole lot in this forum that is not street and what is street seems to be getting killed.

    Having said that, I would love to see the original because from what I can make out, it looks like a terrific candid. As is stands, I would have to say pass.
    My blog, where the eyes are the window to the soul.
    Thank you very much, Javier
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    RSL wrote: »
    I think the crudeness is an important part of it Neil. For heaven's sake, don't make it smooth and understandable.

    As far as BD's criticism is concerned, I ought to be shocked, but I'm not. About a year ago I was complaining about seeing all sorts of stuff on a forum named "Street and PJ" that was neither street nor PJ, and getting verbally whacked for saying so -- by BD along with others. But the problem is the name of the forum, not the material on it. If this really were a Street & PJ forum, only a tiny fraction of what's on here would be on it. But what difference does it make? There's some very good stuff on here that doesn't even remotely fall into either street or PJ categories.

    Yes, as BD said, strictly speaking what you did isn't even photography, but all of us photographers need to get outside the box they live in and embrace the whole world of visual art. You can learn a whole lot about photography from painting, printmaking, sculpture, anything that embodies an image.

    Yes, I know what you're saying. One of the most important things in doing photography, for me, is the randomness in it, that I cannot control everything, stuff gets into the camera despite myself! I am really loosening up after realising that, and there's no better way to revel in that randomness and anarchy than in S&PJ! When I manipulate photographic data, combine images, etc, really I am letting the data have its head, really I am just sitting back and watching! Then I choose what I am given. I come home with stuff in the camera and then I let it loose in my computer. This is one place photography is at now! Let it be!:D

    Personally, I do have limits about what I do, to keep what I do authentic, but they are just that I only use what I get out of my camera, nothing else. And I do think that S&PJ is encounters without artifice communicated with artifice.

    I understand where bd is coming from, I think, and all the other various attitudes to S&PJ, and I wouldn't want to gag the ongoing discussion. It's a big part of the fun!

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    Javier wrote: »
    While street photography is tough to get an actual definition on, this is clearly not it nor photo journalism.
    I agree with what you said as well. There is a whole lot in this forum that is not street and what is street seems to be getting killed.

    Having said that, I would love to see the original because from what I can make out, it looks like a terrific candid. As is stands, I would have to say pass.

    I might just raise the idea of not confusing style with substance. You yourself have an "historical" style of S&PJ. I have nothing against that. But I do think it's regressive to make yourself a gatekeeper/bouncer on the basis of one particular style. You have recently been referring to HCB in your posts. But it has taken many other at least equally accomplished practitioners, most of them from the US, with styles and techniques vastly different to HCB's, to build up the wonderful body of work in S&PJ. Do you really want to put yourself in the position of telling the world it's quits, house full, as far as S&PJ is concerned?rolleyes1.gif

    Illustrates what I am getting at-

    http://www.americansuburbx.com/

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • lensmolelensmole Registered Users Posts: 1,548 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    RSL wrote: »
    I think the crudeness is an important part of it Neil. For heaven's sake, don't make it smooth and understandable.

    As far as BD's criticism is concerned, I ought to be shocked, but I'm not. About a year ago I was complaining about seeing all sorts of stuff on a forum named "Street and PJ" that was neither street nor PJ, and getting verbally whacked for saying so -- by BD along with others. But the problem is the name of the forum, not the material on it. If this really were a Street & PJ forum, only a tiny fraction of what's on here would be on it. But what difference does it make? There's some very good stuff on here that doesn't even remotely fall into either street or PJ categories.

    Yes, as BD said, strictly speaking what you did isn't even photography, but all of us photographers need to get outside the box they live in and embrace the whole world of visual art. You can learn a whole lot about photography from painting, printmaking, sculpture, anything that embodies an image.

    This would be a personnel choice and not all photographers want to be influenced by art .

    Lensmole
    http://www.lensmolephotography.com/
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    lensmole wrote: »
    This would be a personnel choice and not all photographers want to be influenced by art .

    Sure. But on the other hand, where can you be free of art?!ne_nau.gif

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • bdcolenbdcolen Registered Users Posts: 3,804 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    NeilL wrote: »
    I am exploring some ideas for a uni folio - 20 images. I'd like to do something based on people "found" around places where people are found.:D I think it's easy to see the direction I am heading off in with this very raw trial image, but would like to know what your gut reactions are. This particular example is static, and I think is considerably weakened by that, so I am going to hunt for shots with stronger gesture and movement. I would be very grateful for any comments you might have. Thanks.


    [IMG]http://neilal.smugmug.com/photos/i-7d9LFfR/0/X2/i-7d9LFfR-X2.jpg[/IMG Neil[/img]


    Okay, everybody, enough. Is this, or is it not, a photography forum, specifically a forum for what we are calling "street, pj, and documentary" - using those terms very loosely so as to encompass pretty much anything taken in those styles? If we are agreed on that, then this image, which Neil has told us is "two sets of data together to see what dynamic I might discover they got up to," simply is NOT photography. Period. It is an art form. It is interesting. It is valuable. BUT IT IS NOT PHOTOGRAPHY and therefore, by definition, does not belong here. (However, it certainly belongs is a forum called Photographic-based Art, and I'd love to see such a forum added to Dgrin.) Any argument to the contrary about expanding our consciousness, changing standards, changing times, is complete and utter bullshit. We're not talking about "truth" in photography - if there is such a thing (and more and more I am coming to feel there really is not mwink.gif); we're not talking about what the standards of any one kind of photography might or should be. We are talking about what constitutes PHOTOGRAPHY. This work is NOT photography. PERIOD. And I would ask Richard for a ruling on this.
    bd@bdcolenphoto.com
    "He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan

    "The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    bdcolen wrote: »
    Okay, everybody, enough. Is this, or is it not, a photography forum, specifically a forum for what we are calling "street, pj, and documentary" - using those terms very loosely so as to encompass pretty much anything taken in those styles? If we are agreed on that, then this image, which Neil has told us is "two sets of data together to see what dynamic I might discover they got up to," simply is NOT photography. Period. It is an art form. It is interesting. It is valuable. BUT IT IS NOT PHOTOGRAPHY and therefore, by definition, does not belong here. (However, it certainly belongs is a forum called Photographic-based Art, and I'd love to see such a forum added to Dgrin.) Any argument to the contrary about expanding our consciousness, changing standards, changing times, is complete and utter bullshit. We're not talking about "truth" in photography - if there is such a thing (and more and more I am coming to feel there really is not mwink.gif); we're not talking about what the standards of any one kind of photography might or should be. We are talking about what constitutes PHOTOGRAPHY. This work is NOT photography. PERIOD. And I would ask Richard for a ruling on this.

    Yep that's ok as far as it goes. I wonder though why the big deal about quarantining "art" from photography, as if it were some kind of contamination? Almost every serious comment I read about photography is basically about the work it does as art.ne_nau.gif

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • lensmolelensmole Registered Users Posts: 1,548 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    NeilL wrote: »
    Sure. But on the other hand, where can you be free of art?!ne_nau.gif

    Neil

    Not sure I understand your question and probability couldn't answer the question anyway. I am simply saying that some photographers that do street photography aren't necessarily inspired by art nor is it their motivation .

    Lensmole
    http://www.lensmolephotography.com/
  • bdcolenbdcolen Registered Users Posts: 3,804 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    NeilL wrote: »
    Yep that's ok as far as it goes. I wonder though why the big deal about quarantining "art" from photography, as if it were some kind of contamination? Almost every serious comment I read about photography is basically about the work it does as art.ne_nau.gif

    Neil

    It's quite simple, Neil, while photography is an art form, this is a photography forum, not a mixed media forum, or a general art forum. Water color painting is art, but water colorists would not think to post here. For that matter, water colors and oils are both forms of painting, but someone doing water colors would not post on a forum for oil painting, and vice versa. But then I know that you know this.mwink.gif
    bd@bdcolenphoto.com
    "He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan

    "The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
  • JavierJavier Registered Users Posts: 152 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    NeilL wrote: »
    I might just raise the idea of not confusing style with substance. You yourself have an "historical" style of S&PJ. I have nothing against that. But I do think it's regressive to make yourself a gatekeeper/bouncer on the basis of one particular style. You have recently been referring to HCB in your posts. But it has taken many other at least equally accomplished practitioners, most of them from the US, with styles and techniques vastly different to HCB's, to build up the wonderful body of work in S&PJ. Do you really want to put yourself in the position of telling the world it's quits, house full, as far as S&PJ is concerned?rolleyes1.gif

    Illustrates what I am getting at-

    http://www.americansuburbx.com/

    Neil

    Neil,
    I do not recall referencing HCB in any of my post here. I would usually mention Winogrand, but that does not matter as both HCB and Winogrand would not call your art street photography. I do not have an eye for art, so I will not comment on it any further.
    But for a simple exercise, i googled street photography
    https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=street+photography&oq=street&aq=0p&aqi=p-p1g3&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=hp.1.0.35i39j0l3.1152.2019.0.3704.6.6.0.0.0.0.67.377.6.6.0.ymrb2fljyNg&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=160a46efcf63646c&biw=1600&bih=787
    and nothing close to your art came up that I can see.
    My blog, where the eyes are the window to the soul.
    Thank you very much, Javier
  • toragstorags Registered Users Posts: 4,615 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    Good discussion

    I didn't seen anybody trying to limit the art. I think it's a question of categorizing the posts.

    Then new visitors seek and know what to expect when coming here.

    That's why I came, to specifically get a notion of why people should be included in an image ( I shoot motorsports)

    In the course of your journey to find your way, you might like to look at this fellows stuff. He inspired me to do overlays

    http://www.franklinbowlesgallery.com/Shared_Elements/ArtistPages/Salzmann/pages/salz-home.html
    Rags
  • RyanSRyanS Registered Users Posts: 507 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    There are a few people out there who enjoy white carpets. Imagine for a moment you are one of them. How would you feel if someone walked all over your white carpet with dirty shoes? Is it your fault because you like white carpets, or is it the visitors fault for not having the decency to take off their shoes? Street/pj/documentary is sort of a niche style. It is like white carpets (slightly gray carpets also accepted). There aren't that many places on the Internet to discuss the subject in an honest way with other adults. This makes the dgrin street/pj forum extra special. Please take off your shoes before entering. Does this make sense?

    There is a forum on here called "Other Cool Shots" that is sort of a catch-all for digital art, fine art, photo illustrations, experimental work, etc. I hang out in that forum a lot as well because I enjoy experimental work. Some of my work goes in OCS and not on S/PJ. If someone will move this thread to the OCS forum, I'd like to comment on the image (and remove the above opinion).
    Please feel free to post any reworks you do of my images. Crop, skew, munge, edit, share.
    Website | Galleries | Utah PJs
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,961 moderator
    edited April 28, 2012
    OK, so about a month ago, there was a general strike in Madrid--marches, banners, police in riot gear, raised fists--all the usual subjects. I went out with the intention of covering the event (whatever that means for someone who doesn't publish) but after about an hour I was so bored by it all I went home with only about thirty frames. There were a number of perfectly acceptable PJ shots in the set, but I still couldn't work up much enthusiasm about them. The "been there done that feeling" was simply overwhelming. Then, mgeron--a new member of Dgrin--posted a striking composite of downtown LA on the Other Cool Shots forum and I got the idea that a single, well-constructed composite might convey the reality of the event more effectively than yet another series of protest pics. It's a work in progress and I'll post it if and when I think it succeeds--anyone who thinks that composites are taking the easy way out hasn't tried doing them.

    I don't think this forum has anything to gain by excluding experimental or unconventional approaches to rendering life on the street. Hyperbole aside, nobody's retina is going to be damaged by viewing an oversaturated HDR or a composite once in a while. It's not conventional photography or traditional street photography, to be sure, but so what? Why be dogmatic about it? It takes all of two seconds to hit the Back button and move on if you don't like an image and you're under no obligation to take the time to comment. Keep in mind that someone else might be inspired by what you dismiss.

    I see little threat that Street & PJ is going to somehow morph into deviantart.com. If we were to see a tremendous upsurge in experimental urban work, then it might make sense to creating a new forum for it, but until then I'm going to continue to take an inclusive approach here.
    My Pics
  • RSLRSL Registered Users Posts: 839 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    Holy cow, Richard. Less than a year ago I was arguing the other side of this question and you were telling me that you areren't concerned about taxonomy. Now I've come to agree with you. I only have two problems at this point: (1) I'd like to see the name of this forum changed so that it doesn't look as if it's really restricted to street photography and phototojournalism. I agree with Rags that people, especially people who aren't familiar with real street photography, can easily be misled by the mismatch between the name and the content. You've already pointed out that that idea won't fly, so I guess that's a dead end. But (2) I'd like to see a real street photography forum added to Dgrin.
    Russ Lewis
    www.FineArtSnaps.com
  • toragstorags Registered Users Posts: 4,615 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    Richard wrote: »
    OK, so about a month ago, there was a general strike in Madrid--marches, banners, police in riot gear, raised fists--all the usual subjects. I went out with the intention of covering the event (whatever that means for someone who doesn't publish) but after about an hour I was so bored by it all I went home with only about thirty frames. There were a number of perfectly acceptable PJ shots in the set, but I still couldn't work up much enthusiasm about them. The "been there done that feeling" was simply overwhelming. Then, mgeron--a new member of Dgrin--posted a striking composite of downtown LA on the Other Cool Shots forum and I got the idea that a single, well-constructed composite might convey the reality of the event more effectively than yet another series of protest pics. It's a work in progress and I'll post it if and when I think it succeeds--anyone who thinks that composites are taking the easy way out hasn't tried doing them.

    I don't think this forum has anything to gain by excluding experimental or unconventional approaches to rendering life on the street. Hyperbole aside, nobody's retina is going to be damaged by viewing an oversaturated HDR or a composite once in a while. It's not conventional photography or traditional street photography, to be sure, but so what? Why be dogmatic about it? It takes all of two seconds to hit the Back button and move on if you don't like an image and you're under no obligation to take the time to comment. Keep in mind that someone else might be inspired by what you dismiss.

    I see little threat that Street & PJ is going to somehow morph into deviantart.com. If we were to see a tremendous upsurge in experimental urban work, then it might make sense to creating a new forum for it, but until then I'm going to continue to take an inclusive approach here.

    Richard you're undermining the documentary content here.

    It's fair to say that a lot of posts recently (posed mug shots, family shots) also diminish that content.

    You are the mod on OCS , the justification for bringing that here is skinny. You can have social content art in OCS without undermining the forum title.
    Rags
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,961 moderator
    edited April 28, 2012
    torags wrote: »
    Richard you're undermining the documentary content here.

    It's fair to say that a lot of posts recently (posed mug shots, family shots) also diminish that content.
    There goes the neighborhood, eh? It's beyond me why you think that one thread can diminish another.
    My Pics
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    RyanS wrote: »
    There are a few people out there who enjoy white carpets. Imagine for a moment you are one of them. How would you feel if someone walked all over your white carpet with dirty shoes? Is it your fault because you like white carpets, or is it the visitors fault for not having the decency to take off their shoes? Street/pj/documentary is sort of a niche style. It is like white carpets (slightly gray carpets also accepted). There aren't that many places on the Internet to discuss the subject in an honest way with other adults. This makes the dgrin street/pj forum extra special. Please take off your shoes before entering. Does this make sense?

    There is a forum on here called "Other Cool Shots" that is sort of a catch-all for digital art, fine art, photo illustrations, experimental work, etc. I hang out in that forum a lot as well because I enjoy experimental work. Some of my work goes in OCS and not on S/PJ. If someone will move this thread to the OCS forum, I'd like to comment on the image (and remove the above opinion).

    Yes, I agree that it would be absurd to post eg ducks on a pond here, etc. Absurd but not kind of sinful, like you suggest dirtying someone's white carpet with muddy shoes would be. Other people's possessions should be treated with respect, obviously. But nobody "owns" S&PJ!

    For me, what S&PJ is, is straightforward - it's the revelation of people as artists in living their lives in their particular circumstances. The art of their lives is like your white carpet, and should be respected, but the revelation of that art by the photographer is the photographer's art. I don't think there's a white carpet here, the medium or style that is used is integral to the success of the revealing that the photographer is doing. So long as, in the case of this forum, only photographs are used.

    I use only photographs I have taken. My image here is really a digital double exposure, one exposure of people and one of a part of their physical environment taken adjacent to where the people were. The result is that the information is expanded beyond what could be captured in one shot, but the extra information is directly related to that shot. You could also think of it as like shooting reflections in a window, so getting two images in one. Would you object to double exposures and reflections shots in S&PJ?

    I think we have left the idea that some styles are *experimental*, and should be quarantined away to protect against contaminating white carpets, behind. The medium is part of the message, as was said last century by Marshall McLuhan.

    The experimentation that I talked about in my own image was about the *effectiveness* of my medium and style, not about their legitimacy.

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • bdcolenbdcolen Registered Users Posts: 3,804 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    This is not the Experimental Photogenerated Data Compilation Forum, it is the Street and PJ/Documentary Forum. What you presented by the way was NOT a digital double exposure - it was two separate images, combined and splashed with Photoshop acid. But no mind - double exposures do not belong here either. There is a specific forum for experimental work, and work that does not fit into other forums.

    But if this is going to be the Whatever Anybody Feels Like It's Being Forum, so be it; I'm sure there are those who will want to be here.
    bd@bdcolenphoto.com
    "He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan

    "The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
  • NeilLNeilL Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited April 28, 2012
    torags wrote: »
    Good discussion

    I didn't seen anybody trying to limit the art. I think it's a question of categorizing the posts.

    Then new visitors seek and know what to expect when coming here.

    That's why I came, to specifically get a notion of why people should be included in an image ( I shoot motorsports)

    In the course of your journey to find your way, you might like to look at this fellows stuff. He inspired me to do overlays

    http://www.franklinbowlesgallery.com/Shared_Elements/ArtistPages/Salzmann/pages/salz-home.html


    Thanks for the link - very interesting!thumb.gif

    Neil
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
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