Image value?

M38A1

First off, I'm not what I'd even remotely call a professional photographer. I do not shoot as my primary source of income, nor do I really have illusions of doing so. It's the people that make shooting hard for me, so shooting static subjects like products, staged shots and such are much easier for me and I accept that.

That said, I DO have an increasing number of people commenting on some of my work they wish to use in various formats for various purposes. Some are simply night skyline shots and others have been staged shots I've put together. Some are just really nice portraits of their pet. But I have these friends who want to use them for flyers, presentations, personal wall-hangers and the like. What I'm saying is, I work hard at the shots, they come out nice and people want them but I'm not a professional.

All I've been asking is they credit me as the photographer since these are friends. But having hung out here long enough, as much as they are friends and I want to help them succeed at what their project is, I think there's some value in what I'm providing as well as trying to reinforce the thought that there is value in what professional's do for a living and not continuing a thought process that everything should be for 'free' just because you know the guy that shot it.

So how does one value an image for use in this context? I'm sure there are non-professionals who stick there head in here with much the same questions, so I really look forward to your input!

Here are a couple examples of shots I've been approached for and just given away.

This one by several people for brochure material and a banner page on a camera store website:


This one by several people in the health and wellness industries for presentations, brochures and one wanting some followup shots for other types of addictions in the same format/feel/genre' as this one.






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Sam

Seriously, if an individual, company or group wants to use an image for commercial purposes they need to pay for it.

Think about it they are charging for their services and products.

Now it would be a different story if they were willing to let me have their product or services for free.

Try going to your local camera store and tell them you want a camera for free and you will let everyone know you got your camera there.

Sam

angevin1

Guaranteed right. If they want to use YOUR photo, there is value in it! I think it is way-nice to help friends. and Even nicer when friends respect you enough to value you and your work. So lets say the Healthcare folks don't pay for use of this photo. But they have a New or refurbed Unit opening up...and lo, your photos would work well there. They can then pay you for use of those photos in the new unit. If they are a friend, you ought to be able to help them see this. If they aren't quite that close of a friend, then you can simply tell them your price for photo usage and leave it at that. That Healthcare photo is not a typical photo nor one I would expect they would find anywhere. So like I said, the fact that they want to use it means to me it has value.

The Camera Store? They ought to know better! They ought to be giving you something in return!

M38A1

I'm following the thought process here, so that's good.

In general then, the value depends on who the client is? ie: a camera store would be in a better position to pay or provide services than, say.... a not-for-profit teaching entity? So if that's the case, then the skyline shot would be in the $300-500 ballpark? (assuming a body in exchange for the shot?)

And the druggie shot has been requested by what I'll call social service groups. One a very small acupuncturist (for profit) who wants it in a brochure along with some others she wants me to shoot. And the second request from a Dr. friend at a large state agency wanting to imbed it in a presentation to her peers.

I suppose what I'm driving at is, valuation. I'm not in this for money, but if the proper thing to do is accept money as there is perceived value, just what are these images in a non-professional environment worth? Would it be reasonable to ask in the future $250 per image? Remember, this isn't my business, but people are starting to ask for use of shots or go shoot others.

That's what makes this so confusing. Most here are in this business. I on the other hand might be creating an unintended business which might not be a bad thing....


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Sam

Let me add a few thoughts here. If you dealing with friends or charities that are important to you and you want to support the friend and or charity that is your choice.

Do remember a not for profit teaching school pays for teachers, office workers, materials, rent, lights, heat, etc. They ain't working for free so why should you. Non profit doesn't always mean charitable it has more to do with tax status.

Sam

Pure Energy

In general, the value depends on the usage.

Regarding the photo used on the camera store website:

• Does it have your name on it?
• Is it linked to your image on your site for more sales? (why was it so hard to find on your site?)
• Are you (and everyone at dgrin as your new friends) now getting a really sweet deal on camera gear? What is that discount going to add up to for one year? Are you positive the discount will continue for many, many years to come?

When I won the lottery (and got a digital camera) friends would come out of the wood-work insisting any images I shot were theirs and I should just email them a copy. I have the original... what's the big deal?

When my camera gear needs replacing... how many of those friends will still be there?

AlliOOP

IMO, there is no way to place a designated set value on across your work. Only you and your customers can decide the "value". One person may pay $100 to use the image in one brochure and the next may pay $500 to use the same image one time on the cover of a magazine. The value is what is decided between the copyright holder and the client (whether friend or foe). Each time, each photo, each use and each negotiation is different.

M38A1

Thanks everyone for your input....

I think I fall somewhere between what Sam proposed regarding friendships and being able to do something for my friends, and what AlliOOP said about the value really is wide open for interpretation based on each instance of requested use.

I'd probably think much differently if this was my source of income, but it's not. So in some respects I'm glad to just help my friends out where I can. Yet even with that approach, if the opportunity arises to be compensated, I feel a bit more confident in saying so upfront based on your input here.

Again, thanks for the guidance. I really do appreciate it.


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Art Scott

I am going to add a bit here on your usage of the term non professional......once you accept any form of payment for a single piece of your work...Your have just joined the ranks of being a PRO....maybe not a full time pro, but a pro non the less.

Pricing your work really depends on your geo location....I cannot expect a clietn in wichita to pay the same as someone in New York or LA...demographics are way different... I cannot remeber the name of the book now but there is a book out on pricing your work...I believe the author's name is HARRINGTON ...

also if your insurance company finds you have gotten paid for an image your equipment may no longer be covered on your home owners insurance... ... ... I am not telling you this to worry you about charging, as charging is the correct thing to do, as by giving images away for free devalues those full time working pros in your area especially...but if you file a claim due to lost , stolen equipment they may ask if you have ever been paid for using your camera equipment... ... ...

Good Luck.

Pure Energy

AlliOOP wrote: »

IMO, there is no way to place a designated set value on across your work. Only you and your customers can decide the "value". One person may pay $100 to use the image in one brochure and the next may pay $500 to use the same image one time on the cover of a magazine. The value is what is decided between the copyright holder and the client (whether friend or foe). Each time, each photo, each use and each negotiation is different.

In general... prices are based on usage.

Hmmm... $100 for a brochure versus $500 for a magazine cover sure seems like a different usage to me.

Don't forget to take into account circulation numbers, how large the image will be and it's location. 1000 brochures, Sports Illustrated cover with a larger circulation, or will it be the smallest image inside the magazine?

Welcome to the fun of pricing. Be confident, comfortable and/or always adjusting.

M38A1

Art Scott wrote: »

I am going to add a bit here on your usage of the term non professional......once you accept any form of payment for a single piece of your work...Your have just joined the ranks of being a PRO....maybe not a full time pro, but a pro non the less.

Pricing your work really depends on your geo location....I cannot expect a clietn in wichita to pay the same as someone in New York or LA...demographics are way different... I cannot remeber the name of the book now but there is a book out on pricing your work...I believe the author's name is HARRINGTON ...

also if your insurance company finds you have gotten paid for an image your equipment may no longer be covered on your home owners insurance... ... ... I am not telling you this to worry you about charging, as charging is the correct thing to do, as by giving images away for free devalues those full time working pros in your area especially...but if you file a claim due to lost , stolen equipment they may ask if you have ever been paid for using your camera equipment... ... ...

Good Luck.

Art,
Totally agree with your response. The way I see it, you're either in or out of the revenue stream and at this point, I've still not collected any money for my work. My gear insurance also reflects the premiums that I'm not doing this for revenue so I've got that base covered.

As for the charging/giving away images and it's associated devaluation of those full time pros', I tried to address that in my 1st post/3rd paragraph albeit not well done if the subject came up as it has. I'm keenly aware of this from reading the various posts here on dgrin about it. I don't want to dilute the work pro's do, yet at the same time if I'm not charging for a variety of reasons, how do I still try to not dilute the work you do and instill the thought process to my friends there is value in what professionals do? That's the hard part for me at the moment as they may see my work as 'professional' in their mind and I don't want to make the association that professional = free. The situation is almost as if you can't be a developing half-way decent hobbyist and give it away without hurting the real pro's of the business. Does that make sense?


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angevin1

M38A1 wrote: »

I don't want to dilute the work pro's do, yet at the same time if I'm not charging for a variety of reasons, how do I still try to not dilute the work you do and instill the thought process to my friends there is value in what professionals do?

Let me guess. The horse has left the barn and you're trying to figure out how to coax him back in, right? ie; You've given it away for some time and now you'd like a bit of dough?

Get your Website Updated to SmugMug Pro. Get some business Cards.

Be honest. Tell them, something like: "I'm beginning to charge for some of my imagery. But because it's you, I'd just as soon trade."

or, Here's a 40% Discount coupon that you can use ( Smugmug has coupons!)

or?

Zerodog

This is something I have been dealing with recently for news papers in my area. They always want my stuff from events, but they never ever ever ever will pay. If I ask "how much do you usually pay for this sort of thing?" I usually get "we can give you photo cred." or no response at all. I actually had a reporter get pissed at me about it once. I am sure he was getting paid.

Well photo cred is bullshit and it will not pay for my gear, time, or aggravation.

As far as image worth it is all between you and the person buying it. The market will only bare so much for some things. Where Patagonia will spend $$$$$$$ for images a local outdoor store might only have $$ or trade for gear. You need to play any deal toward your benefit. If you give stuff away make sure your name is on it and make sure you use it to build up your reputation.