Color Correction

Lubinski

Whats the lowdown on color correction? There's 3 options I'm looking at now.

1. Buy a color munki and do it myself
2. My lab is WHCC, pay to have them color correct
3. Send to shoot dot edit

What do you guys do and any comments appreciated.

Peano

Lubinski wrote: »

What do you guys do and any comments appreciated.

Calibrate my monitor, download printer profiles from the lab (WHCC), and use them to soft proof images before I send them for print.

arodney

Only problem with download profile and use are labs that don’t honor them. They let you download them and then demand sRGB. Pointless really. It is simply a feel good measure on their part. If you can’t actually use the profile to control the conversions, apply Black Point Compensation and select a rendering intent, if you don’t know the lab even uses that profile, then this is just a big waste of time.

Personally route 1 gives you the most control (custom profiles). But again, if the lab will not use them, you’re basically at their workflow mercy which is hardly geared for modern color management!

Peano

arodney wrote: »

Only problem with download profile and use are labs that don’t honor them. They let you download them and then demand sRGB.

The OP said his lab is WHCC. Also, I think you're confusing a color profile (like sRGB or Adobe RGB) with a printer profile. In the vast majority of cases, sRGB will produce fine prints, with colors as good as any other color space you might choose.

Lubinski

From their faq it seems they listen to the ICC profiles they put up for download.

arodney

Lubinski wrote: »

From their faq it seems they listen to the ICC profiles they put up for download.

And they say this:

Q. Do you supply any profiles?
A. Yes. Once you have an account number, you can download ICC profiles for soft proofing purposes. The profiles are for all of our printers and we also have instructions on how to properly use them. Under no circumstances should you convert to our printing profile or embed it in your files.

So there you go. A profile that we are supposed to believe honors all their printers (hard to believe) but you can’t use the profile. Again, a waste of time.

arodney

Peano wrote: »

I think you're confusing a color profile (like sRGB or Adobe RGB) with a printer profile.

They are both color profiles. One group are RGB working space profiles, color spaces for image editing and archiving. The output profile is a totally different beast. We need it to soft proof. We need it to convert the working space values into output values and we need the ability to control a rendering intent and the CMM (so we have an option to use Black Point Compensation). This profile has to reflect the specific device the resulting values will be sent to. Same type of printer, different paper? Different profile because each paper alters the behavior and hence the RGB numbers necessary for all of the above.

In the vast majority of cases, sRGB will produce fine prints, with colors as good as any other color space you might choose.

Fine is fine. It isn’t ideal. The workflow is suboptimal. Fine if you want to guess how the image will print, don’t need to soft proof, don’t want control over how out of gamut colors are mapped nor want to edit the files based on the soft proof to closer match the original. As good output as doing this properly? Nope, I don’t think so. But the point is, this idea of supplying a profile then not letting you fully use the CMS is half baked at best. Just tell people to send sRGB and be done with it. To give them an idea you are running a color managed workflow and then tieing your right arm behind your back is simply unnecessary.

Lubinski

Any other views and opinions on either way?

ziggy53

There is basic color correction and there is system-wide color "management". Until you are color managed, you only have limited control.

I do suggest developing a "by the numbers" strategy for critical work. For instance, using Photoshop you can sample to determine absolute and relative color values for white, black, and certain important colors and tones, like flesh tones.

It's also important to be able to print to your own standards. Grab some color print targets off the Internet and print them using your system and method (whatever that might be). After you get them back, compare the prints to your monitor. Discrepancies will occur, for many reasons, but hopefully you will start to hone in on things you can control. If you don't like the results, consider making changes to your methods and equipment, or consider changing print partners.

Peano

arodney wrote: »

So there you go. A profile that we are supposed to believe honors all their printers (hard to believe) but you can’t use the profile. Again, a waste of time.

Again, you don't understand how printer profiles are used. You don't embed printer profiles in images. You use them to soft-proof the image in Photoshop and make color adjustments under that profile.

Lubinski

Peano wrote: »

Again, you don't understand how printer profiles are used. You don't embed printer profiles in images. You use them to soft-proof the image in Photoshop and make color adjustments under that profile.

So when you send them off they print as the image looked soft proofed right?

Peano

arodney wrote: »

Lubinski wrote: »

So when you send them off they print as the image looked soft proofed right?

Yes.

So if, for example, the printer profile shifts a blue sky toward the purple, you adjust it back to blue (on a separate adjustment layer, of course). You're making the sky blue as "seen" through the printer's profile.

When you turn off soft-proofing, the blue sky will be all wrong. That's why you use separate adjustment layers to make soft-proof corrections. You're accommodating color to the printer's peculiar way of seeing color.

arodney

Peano wrote: »

Again, you don't understand how printer profiles are used. You don't embed printer profiles in images. You use them to soft-proof the image in Photoshop and make color adjustments under that profile.

Yes you do, you sir are the one who doesn’t understand what he’s talking about. When you do a color space conversion (in Photshop), the numbers are converted to the print space AND the profile is embedded into the document. As for soft proofing, you simply use the profile to provide an on-screen simulation of the print with that profile, decide what rendering intent you prefer, and if necessary, edit the image to appear more like the original (non soft proofed image). Further, you would then use that profile with those settings and convert the data in that fashion to send to the printer.

Using a profile to soft proof but not having the ability to use it otherwise is a waste of time.

I suggest that before you make ridiculous statements such as you don't understand how printer profiles are used you educate yourself on color management.

Here’s a start:

http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200409_rodneycm.pdf

http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200411_rodneycm.pdf

http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/phscs2ip_colspace.pdf

Two video’s on soft proofing in Lightroom 4:

http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof.mov

http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov

arodney

Lubinski wrote: »

So when you send them off they print as the image looked soft proofed right?

Soft proofed how? What rendering intent? Did they honor the one you selected? You picked Perceptual, did they use that or Relative Colorimetric? Nothing wrong with Saturation either as long as you like the rendering. Did they use Black Point Compensation? In fact, did they use that profile to convert the RGB working space data into the output color space when the printed the data? One profile for all printers and papers? Not possible.

Now consider a fully color managed lab. They send you the specific profile for the print process. You use it fully (Convert to Profile). You post edit the image if you desire to better match the original. They simply send those RGB values, as is to the output device. You’ve totally controlled the color management process. You can use any RGB working space you wish. That is how this is all designed to work. It is how those of us that have our own printers handle the color management workflow.

Peano

arodney wrote: »

Soft proofed how? What rendering intent? Did they honor the one you selected? You picked Perceptual, did they use that or Relative Colorimetric? Nothing wrong with Saturation either as long as you like the rendering. Did they use Black Point Compensation? In fact, did they use that profile to convert the RGB working space data into the output color space when the printed the data? One profile for all printers and papers? Not possible.

Now consider a fully color managed lab. They send you the specific profile for the print process. You use it fully (Convert to Profile). You post edit the image if you desire to better match the original. They simply send those RGB values, as is to the output device. You’ve totally controlled the color management process. You can use any RGB working space you wish. That is how this is all designed to work. It is how those of us that have our own printers handle the color management workflow.

Thank you. You persuaded me not to read another syllable you post about color management.

arodney

Peano wrote: »

Thank you. You persuaded me not to read another syllable you post about color management.

1st, that post, which is factually accurate wasn’t intended for you.
2nd, it is pretty clear you should be the poster boy for ignorance is bliss.

Lubinski

New guy starts a bar fight. woot! ;D

arodney

Lubinski wrote: »

New guy starts a bar fight. woot! ;D

No, your questions were quite appropriate. It is just that Peano (another new guy) arms are way too short to box with dog!

jhefti

I'm hardly a master printer, though I do try to do proper color management throughout the editing and printing process. And I can't speak for any of these printers as I strictly use local labs where I can create a contact sheet and do real proofs. In my experience, no amount of soft proofing can substitute for a hard proof. I know the local labs do respect color space, rendering intent, and ICC profiles.

Sam

Disclaimer: I ain't now nor have I ever been a color management expert. I don'ts know all bout them technical terminologies, buts I does get some darn nice pretty prints.

I interpret the op's question to be how do I get my prints to like like my monitor. A very common question.

Should you calibrate your monitor? Yes

Should you do your own printing? Yes, no, well maybe.

Let me start with if I used WHCC. Here is how I would do it. First download a test target print. There are a ton of them online and include color swatches, gray scale swatches etc.

Open up the target test print and using your calibrated monitor profile see how this looks to you. Adjust as you feel necessary and it looks the way you want. Make a copy and open up side by side. Then load the appropriate WHCC icc profile for your paper choice for the copy. Depending on the paper printer choice you may see a very small difference or a pretty substantial difference. Using the icc soft proof view adjust the copy to match as closely as possible your original processes target print. When you are satisfied, convert the file format and color space to whatever the printer wants.

Send the file out and print. When you get it back compare the print to your monitor. They will never match 100% One is backlit the other you view with reflected light. If the image isn't acceptable note what the problem is. To dark, to light, washed out too much / little contrast etc. Make what you feel are the necessary adjustments and send back out for printing.

You may need to repeat this a few times or not depending, but once you have the processing formula down for the printer and paper you should be able to duplicate and get a good image the first time out.

If you want more control, look into printing yourself, but that is a whole other conversation.

I posted this in good faith and do not want to get into a dog fight over this! This method works for me.

Sam

pathfinder

What Sam said.

My prints from my Epson 3800, my monitor, and my prints from Smugmug all look identical. Good enough for me.

I calibrate my monitor, use appropriate printer profiles. My files printed via smuggy, are in sRGB when I upload them.