The knot telling brides to insist on discounts...

bnlearlebnlearle Registered Users Posts: 102 Major grins
edited May 31, 2012 in Weddings
So the knot posted an article that told brides the following...
  • Even the hottest photographer in town can discount.
  • Tell the photographer that you got offered way more by another photographer for the same price.
  • Be firm about your discount.
  • Convince the photographer that you're not really that into them.
  • Make them believe you'll walk away if needed.
  • Go to a flea market and practice haggling strategies to use on them (I'm not making that up).

I am appalled that a company (that is entirely built on wedding images that they get for free) would suggest such things. Obviously, it's messed up to photographers (who give them images for free and pay as much as $200 a month to advertise) -- but it's REALLY messed up to brides.

I couldn't handle it so I posted a rebuttal. Hopefully the Knot gets word and makes needed changes to the advice. Here's my rebuttal...

http://bobbyearle.com/blog/the-knot-discounts-and-hurting-brides/

What do you guys think? And if you agree, feel free to share it around. We need to stop these wedding businesses from putting out such awful advice.
San Diego Wedding Photographer
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Comments

  • bhambham Registered Users Posts: 1,303 Major grins
    edited May 19, 2012
    Well I would hope that all the photographer's that advertise on the site, join forces and haggle for discounted advertising.

    I guess a photographer could tell the bride, well if I book this at 10% off, is 90% of my best effort on your wedding day sufficient?

    In today's world realistically many things are negotiable, but you wouldn't think a company would go out and post an article that undercuts the value and income of their primary advertisers (their vendors), to me that is a pretty stupid move.
    "A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
  • Manfr3dManfr3d Registered Users Posts: 2,008 Major grins
    edited May 19, 2012
    bham ... your signature holds the answer :D
    “To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
    ― Edward Weston
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited May 20, 2012
    bnlearle wrote: »
    • Even the hottest photographer in town can discount.
    • Tell the photographer that you got offered way more by another photographer for the same price.
    • Be firm about your discount.
    • Convince the photographer that you're not really that into them.
    • Make them believe you'll walk away if needed.
    • Go to a flea market and practice haggling strategies to use on them (I'm not making that up).

    Not really into me, and willing to walk away? Sounds like our consultation is over, thanks for your time! Let me show you to the door now...

    That's the worst advice I've seen in years. Good job, Knot. You'll probably cause a few thousand brides to settle for / end up with a totally crap photographer because of this. Morons.
    “My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
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  • shmingshming Registered Users Posts: 93 Big grins
    edited May 20, 2012
    That's not really fair to all the other couples that worked hard and paid full price is it?
    KLinh
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  • Manfr3dManfr3d Registered Users Posts: 2,008 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2012
    shming wrote: »
    That's not really fair to all the other couples that worked hard and paid full price is it?

    I don't know if this is the right approach. Your response implies that the photographer could
    actually give a better deal than he/she is offering already.

    The point of the whole story is that theknot advises brides to go price shopping as if they were on
    a flea market to get the "best" deal. But as we all know best price and quality are mutually exclusive.

    On the good side it makes it even easier for photogs to sort out the price shoppers if they follow
    theknot's advice. What is needed is an article in the media lobbying the wedding photographers (and
    bashing theknot's advices) that reaches brides as good or better than theknot. Discussing it on
    forums only is not enough really.
    “To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
    ― Edward Weston
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2012
    Got a link? I'd like to see this myself. Here you use the word "photographer", but on your blog the article is quoted as using the word "vendor". Bit of a difference there. Furthermore, I can't find the article on theknot.com. Looks like they may have taken it down?

    Edit - OK, they have definitely taken it down and replaced it with a more sensible article:
    http://wedding.theknot.com/wedding-planning/planning-a-wedding/articles/how-to-talk-money-with-wedding-vendors.aspx

    I did a google search for site:theknot.com "be indifferent". The results list shows the article you quoted, but if you click the link it takes you to the above article.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • zoomerzoomer Registered Users Posts: 3,688 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2012
    If I ever had a call like that I would tell them best of luck with the other photographer, game over.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/21695902@N06/
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  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2012
    I just took a fast look at the Knot and found two articles that looked to be very informative one seemed to suggest being upfront with vendors about the budget and no comments about haggling. The other seemed to support photographers and had a list of things the couple should not do. Again no reference to price at all.

    Just what I saw........

    Sam
    www.samlinvillephotography.com
  • KinkajouKinkajou Registered Users Posts: 1,240 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2012
    jmphotocraft wrote: »
    Got a link? I'd like to see this myself. Here you use the word "photographer", but on your blog the article is quoted as using the word "vendor". Bit of a difference there. Furthermore, I can't find the article on theknot.com. Looks like they may have taken it down?

    Edit - OK, they have definitely taken it down and replaced it with a more sensible article:
    http://wedding.theknot.com/wedding-planning/planning-a-wedding/articles/how-to-talk-money-with-wedding-vendors.aspx

    I did a google search for site:theknot.com "be indifferent". The results list shows the article you quoted, but if you click the link it takes you to the above article.


    Interesting that they've changed it. Glad that they did...
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  • bhambham Registered Users Posts: 1,303 Major grins
    edited May 22, 2012
    Kinkajou wrote: »
    Interesting that they've changed it. Glad that they did...

    Well I imagine that maybe the vendors all decided to haggle with The Knot about their cost of advertising, good for the geese, good for the gander.
    "A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
  • KinkajouKinkajou Registered Users Posts: 1,240 Major grins
    edited May 24, 2012
    Either that or some clueless intern wrote a bad article and then got sacked!
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  • mr peasmr peas Registered Users Posts: 1,369 Major grins
    edited May 25, 2012
    I remember reading a book, I forget which it was, it might have been 'Blue Ocean Strategy' or '5 Hour Workweek'. I remember an excerpt saying that underselling to people looking for discounts is big waste of time-effort and money, and I'm sure many will agree. So why focus on people who are demanding you knock out 50% of the price while retaining the same amount of work, when you can just pass and tend to the next customer? Then again, it's different when you're in debt, starving, etc., and we've all been there.

    A friend taught me a valuable lesson in regards to pricing; there's nothing wrong with lowering your price, so long as it matches the amount of effort they're willing to sacrifice. A premium of $2.5k for albums, an e-session, full-day coverage; may not sound reasonable to a family just starting out, perhaps they're young, living on one salary, going to school, etc., it doesn't matter. So long as they're courteous, I'd be willing to work out payment plans, maybe not include an album, do a half-day instead, and bump out other services to knock the price down some and make it more affordable. And if they were reasonable and are HUGE fans of my work, I would go above and beyond for them, even if certain services were cut, as I would with any other client. Working with discount-shoppers isn't all that bad, but compromise is key. If you neither parties can't find a middle-ground, there's no reason to continue, just part way and say good luck. :)


    Anyway, I think (OP) you're spot on with the article. I think everyone loves getting a discount, I mean really, who doesn't? But its the difference in approach that hits a nerve with us. My favorite deals though, are service trades. Like, wood-flooring for a wedding gig. thumb.gif
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited May 25, 2012
    WOW WHAT A CHANGE FROM WHAT WAS IN THE FIRST ARTICLE....wonder how many of the Knots clients called asking WTF?!?!?!?!?!?
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • FergusonFerguson Registered Users Posts: 1,345 Major grins
    edited May 30, 2012
    I am not a pro, I am not doing weddings, but would like to add a perspective, one that I did not invent. Here is an article that sounds unrelated, it is about JC Penny pricing policies.

    redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/25/11864178-fair-and-square-pricing-thatll-never-work-jc-penney-we-like-being-shafted?lite

    Short version: you cannot be successful dealing with the public by being straightforward about pricing, that the (at least American) public wants to be fooled, wants to think they have more of a deal than they really do. Or maybe we are just too stupid. .

    But it also sets the stage for saying that to be more successful, you have to structure things so as to deal with such bargain hunters, and transparent, straightfoward pricing is your worst enemy.

    Really sad. Just another blow to those trying to be professional and up front about a business deal.

    So if you want $2000 for a job, just offer a 50% discount off of $5000, and have a few hidden extra costs on top of that, and more people will not only take it but be happier.

    Pathetically sad.
    http://captivephotons.com
  • Manfr3dManfr3d Registered Users Posts: 2,008 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2012
    I don't know if it's sad but it's definitely all about psychology and in essence boils down to the
    fact that people happily spend more if they only think they make a good deal. That's
    why brands work, thats why commercials focus on how you feel using a product rather
    than on the technical aspects or price only (best example: car ads). And I think this is also
    the very reason why it is important for photographers to be a brand and market themselves
    accordingly. Don't let clients buy a product (=photos), let them buy being part of your brand
    (=being shot by you) and you'll get customers that will spend more because they feel they got
    a good deal (exclusive hip photographer who their friends and family recommended and admire).

    In theory it is very simple (and lots of hip photogs earn alot of cash teaching this on workshops),
    getting there however is hard work.
    “To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
    ― Edward Weston
  • ShimaShima Registered Users Posts: 2,547 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2012
    Thank you for standing up agains this Bobby. Like everyone else has said, it's definitely horrible advise from the Knot. I'm glad they took it down.
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