I'm not sure my response needs any more clarification, but let's get back to this suit and the couple, and why the whole thing is full of stupid. I'm confronted with ignorance, prejudice, and stupidity on a daily basis. My first reaction is usually disgust, then pity, followed by an acceptance of the behavior as a base part of human nature. My first response is NEVER to litigate against it. Ridicule it on the internet, warn other potential customers? Sure, but what was it that those lads from Liverpool said "Live and let Live/Live and let die" not "Live and lets litigate", it is a net step backward for your "agenda" especially when there are plenty of businesses willing to take your business. So sad that some people wanting the same thing other people openly disparage, disrespect, and disregard is cause for such gnashing and ugly grandstanding, but hey, that is base human nature.
The USA constitution does not base Laws on Live and Let Live...
The USA constitution does not base Laws on Live and Let Live...
What again, does the US constitution have to do with this? Did the gay couple actively stop the photographer from performing the archaic and magical practices of her religion? No. They turned hateful and vindictive when a person revealed themselves willingly and openly as a bigot, there was a time when this was met with a tsk and not a writ.
Please interpret my previous comment as reflecting discrimination as previously determined to be illegal.
Will-do and no worries mate - I do understand that is what you meant and I don't disagree.
My response, I guess, betrays my frustration with the fact in this case that a business owner could not opt-out - by the way, a passive response to a business transaction not initiated by the photog - on the grounds that participating in the ceremony (and the intimate nature of the service provided) violated their ethical/moral standards. And, the fact that the lawsuit was accepted by the judiciary and elevated to a Human Rights test, is disturbing to me - it seems a bit of a case of reverse-discrimination and perhaps judicial activism. It just bothers me that under these specific circumstances an individual is being punished for NOT doing something - I believe the Nanny State has gone too far on this one, and I will admit to a libertarian/laissez faire bias - I trust the market place to sort out such minor matters as wedding photography.
I do agree that anti-discrimination and human rights are worthy of protection, but properly balanced with the Liberty of the individual/small business owner - it's a tough one.
Nuff said.
... The photographer was responding in defense to protect her beliefs which is protected under the constitution that an artist, small business and Christian of a business owner has.
That is simply incorrect. The photographer was caught unlawfully discriminating against a legally recognized class of individual, namely an openly gay person.
Any public business "must" give the same service to all legally recognized classes of people. That is the point of this case and the reason for the resulting verdict.
What again, does the US constitution have to do with this? Did the gay couple actively stop the photographer from performing the archaic and magical practices of her religion? No. They turned hateful and vindictive when a person revealed themselves willingly and openly as a bigot, there was a time when this was met with a tsk and not a writ.
Nothing from the photographer mentioned hate and vindictiveness. Your statement is purely injection as far as archaic and magical practices (oh the irony). But unfortunately... her business very could be affected which is what some are concerned about here.
That is simply incorrect. The photographer was caught unlawfully discriminating against a legally recognized class of individual, namely an openly gay person.
Any public business "must" give the same service to all legally recognized classes of people. That is the point of this case and the reason for the resulting verdict.
The point of this case is to determine the rights of a small business owner and their rights vs. a customer and their rights. Each people group are protected under the constitution, civil rights and human rights. And under that can be unfolded specifics.
Nothing from the photographer mentioned hate and vindictiveness. Your statement is purely injection as far as archaic and magical practices (oh the irony). But unfortunately... her business very could be affected which is what some are concerned about here.
You need a greater command of the English language for people to interpret your opinions. I was saying that the gay couple turned vindictive when they found a photographer full of hate and bigotry.
You need a greater command of the English language for people to interpret your opinions. I was saying that the gay couple turned vindictive when they found a photographer full of hate and bigotry.
no becasue you can discriminate on many grounds..but not ethnicity, religeon, sexual orientation, and a few others. You can turn a away a client because they wear red shoes or becasue they are a democrat or becasue they like a certain brand of cereal. These are not protected classes
This what this entire thread is (or should be about) in terms of analyzing the application of this case in New Mexico.
This what this entire thread is (or should be about) in terms of analyzing the application of this case in New Mexico.
I think that was the original intent, but discussion of whether that should be the law ensued, because of the possibility of some people being legally forced to do work that they would rather not do (for various possible reasons).
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
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Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
Really? Because to me, her response of "only photographing traditional marriages" says. "I believe your lifestyle, and who you are as a person is not condoned by my deity and my interpretation of a holy book, it is invalid and therefore not worth my services" It also implies that if the person were to change their ways, their "traditional" love would meet some standard as held by the photographer and therefore valid and worthy. I'm fine with freedom of religion so long as I have freedom FROM religion, and any way you cut it, her specific response is inflammatory, and discriminatory.
This is indeed how I feel "I only photograph traditional marriages" sounds to the couple. Inflammatory and discriminatory.
Sure, the term "traditional" sounds harmless enough to most people, but not the couple. Sure, the photographer sure could have been a LOT more insulting. But "traditional" still stings. It is still a faux-polite way of saying "I believe the love and compassion which you feel (with all your heart) to not only be deeply wrong, but also you may even burn in hell for it depending on how I interpret a certain book."
For the final time, I'll bottom-line it for y'all, since this discussion seems to be taking it's fifth or sixth whack at the dead horse we see here before us...
1.) Yep, the photographer is allowed to hold that belief. They're even allowed to state that belief to the face of a gay couple. That is the freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion.
2.) Yep, the photographer is allowed to refuse service. But only for legally recognized reasons. In restaurants for example, you certainly can kick out or refuse anyone who is being unruly, such as a drunken bum (or college frat kid) who would cause a scene in a family restaurant. And as a wedding photographer and small business owner, I have the right to decline a job if I think it is not a proper fit. As long as I can cite specific reasons that do not violate discrimination laws.
4.) Yep, it is scary to think that the government can force you to do something that is "against your religion". Behold, the two-edge sword that is freedom / separation of church and state. Don't like it? Maybe you should start your own country that more thoroughly protects your own beliefs?
I will put it as simply as I can: The government just can't protect YOUR beliefs at the expense of OTHERS beliefs. Especially not in business dealings. How is this such a complicated thing to understand?
The problem, in my opinion, is that many people are thinking in terms of "religion VS lifestyle", as if one can legally trump the other. Instead of what it really is, "belief VS belief"
... 4.) Yep, it is scary to think that the government can force you to do something that is "against your religion". ...
That is the common perception in this case, but it is an incorrect assumption. The reality is that if you have a "public" business of any kind, and that includes photography, you must be prepared to serve everyone equally. By being a "public" business you have already made that agreement (not to unlawfully discriminate), whether you realize it or not.
In this case, the State of New Mexico is simply enforcing the agreement that the photography studio had already made to serve the public equally, by being a public business.
... The government just can't protect YOUR beliefs at the expense of OTHERS beliefs. Especially not in business dealings. ...
That's the other issue that is often misunderstood about this case. The State of New Mexico is simply enforcing the law as it pertains to human rights and public service (aka the photography studio services). The state is legally blind to the issues of personal beliefs.
You are correct that the state cannot protect one individual's beliefs over another individual's beliefs, but that doesn't apply in this case because, while beliefs were stated by the couple regarding their faith and their beliefs, it has no bearing on the law of the case. In other words, for the State of New Mexico (and in every other state in our Union), personal beliefs are no defense in breaking the law.
I wanted to add another alternative: Some religious businesses advertise exclusively through churches and religious organizations that reflect their own beliefs. If you go that route, you will likely eliminate the chance of ever having to shoot someone you have a religious disagreement with.
You can't always have everything you want, and here you have to make a choice between following your faith and making more money. I wouldn't blame you for taking the latter, but there's a thing about public advertising: If you cast a wide net, you can't complain about what it brings in.
So a legally acceptable response from the photographer to the initial "if you're open to it" email query could have been something like this?
"I'll meet with you to discuss the ceremony, but just so you know, I'm personally opposed to same-sex unions and I can't promise to deliver my best work in light of my beliefs. If you are okay with having a photographer who does not personally condone the ceremony, then we can discuss more details. If not, I understand if you choose to look elsewhere."
Are you allowed to disclose your personal beliefs when discussing business deals, or does she have to pretend that she's okay with it because she is offering her services as a "public" business?
Is the statement/link you provided to make fun of Catholics, Jews & Christians or to prove a legitimate concern with Govt involvement?
It was probably for some much needed comedy relief. You watch the Daily Show to laugh, not to learn anything.
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
no becasue you can discriminate on many grounds..but not ethnicity, religeon, sexual orientation, and a few others. You can turn a away a client because they wear red shoes or becasue they are a democrat or becasue they like a certain brand of cereal. These are not protected classes
Which then begs the question - who chooses which special classes of people are deserving of this legal protection against discrimination, and which classes of people are not worthy of the equal protection under the law that's supposed to be guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?
What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
Oh I get it - it was a jab making fun of the Catholics, Jews & Christians. Not cool and no place for that stuff here. I could on so many levels turn the mirror around on that!
Which then begs the question - who chooses which special classes of people are deserving of this legal protection against discrimination, and which classes of people are not worthy of the equal protection under the law that's supposed to be guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?
If it's a state human rights act (as we are discussing here) - then it is generally that state's legislative branch.
Which then begs the question - who chooses which special classes of people are deserving of this legal protection against discrimination, and which classes of people are not worthy of the equal protection under the law that's supposed to be guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?
Oh I get it - it was a jab making fun of the Catholics, Jews & Christians. Not cool and no place for that stuff here. I could on so many levels turn the mirror around on that!
Sigh..... shaking head.....
No, its not making fun of religious people. What it is doing is pointing out that those few people who honestly think their government is attacking their faith or their religion are completely out of touch with reality.
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-yfti-tbllook:1184;mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes"> <td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> Originally Posted by mercphoto Christians are being attached in this country by their very government. Give me a freakin' break.
No, its not making fun of religious people. What it is doing is pointing out that those few people who honestly think their government is attacking their faith or their religion are completely out of touch with reality.
Kinda like the homosexual couples believing their human rights were attacked in their own country by one photographer. Let Stewart do a skit on that and slot in a video of human rights atrocities that are going on in certain other parts of the world. Real funny huh?
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-yfti-tbllook:1184;mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes"> <td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"> Originally Posted by mercphoto Christians are being attached in this country by their very government. Give me a freakin' break.
Kinda like the homosexual couples believing their human rights were attacked in their own country by one photographer. Let Stewart do a skit on that and slot in a video of human rights atrocities that are going on in certain other parts of the world. Real funny huh?
Plenty of Equal Opportunity Satirists, including Tom Lehrer more than 40 years ago
(And, lest my post isn't clear, YES, this is intended as light relief. Also, the point is that conflict between "special interest groups" is NOTHING new. The reason Tom Lehrer - and Stewart, for that matter - is funny is because it's all so true, and so universal. And if we can't find humour in the truth of our own human foibles, we're in sad trouble indeed....)
So Eia, if my understanding is correct.... you are saying people shouldn't sue over violations of the law because people are getting blown up in other countries? You're kind of all over the board there.
So Eia, if my understanding is correct.... you are saying people shouldn't sue over violations of the law because people are getting blown up in other countries? <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/ne_nau.gif" border="0" alt="" > You're kind of all over the board there.
A person has the right to be gay.
A person has the right to be straight
A person has the right to shoot gay weddings.
A person has the right to not shoot gay weddings.
The End.
So a legally acceptable response from the photographer to the initial "if you're open to it" email query could have been something like this?
"I'll meet with you to discuss the ceremony, but just so you know, I'm personally opposed to same-sex unions and I can't promise to deliver my best work in light of my beliefs. If you are okay with having a photographer who does not personally condone the ceremony, then we can discuss more details. If not, I understand if you choose to look elsewhere."
Are you allowed to disclose your personal beliefs when discussing business deals, or does she have to pretend that she's okay with it because she is offering her services as a "public" business?
I would hope it's ok to disclose your personal beliefs. To me this fits squarely within your first amendment right of free speech. It's also a lot more honest than saying, "you're busy that day".
A person has the right to be gay.
A person has the right to be straight
A person has the right to shoot gay weddings.
A person has the right to not shoot gay weddings.
The End.
I do believe that you have missed the conclusion of our discussion, actually. I think many of us are agreeing that if you decide to open a business to "serve the public", you make a commitment to serve the public equally. So you do not have the right to REFUSE something on a basis if it is discriminatory.
Those public business owners / service provides who have a problem with that, well, maybe a public service business isn't the right career path for you... (Or, do as I do, and just pick-and-choose your battles. And, always be honest and up-front with your clients about your personal beliefs...)
Comments
The USA constitution does not base Laws on Live and Let Live...
What again, does the US constitution have to do with this? Did the gay couple actively stop the photographer from performing the archaic and magical practices of her religion? No. They turned hateful and vindictive when a person revealed themselves willingly and openly as a bigot, there was a time when this was met with a tsk and not a writ.
Will-do and no worries mate - I do understand that is what you meant and I don't disagree.
My response, I guess, betrays my frustration with the fact in this case that a business owner could not opt-out - by the way, a passive response to a business transaction not initiated by the photog - on the grounds that participating in the ceremony (and the intimate nature of the service provided) violated their ethical/moral standards. And, the fact that the lawsuit was accepted by the judiciary and elevated to a Human Rights test, is disturbing to me - it seems a bit of a case of reverse-discrimination and perhaps judicial activism. It just bothers me that under these specific circumstances an individual is being punished for NOT doing something - I believe the Nanny State has gone too far on this one, and I will admit to a libertarian/laissez faire bias - I trust the market place to sort out such minor matters as wedding photography.
I do agree that anti-discrimination and human rights are worthy of protection, but properly balanced with the Liberty of the individual/small business owner - it's a tough one.
Nuff said.
That is simply incorrect. The photographer was caught unlawfully discriminating against a legally recognized class of individual, namely an openly gay person.
Any public business "must" give the same service to all legally recognized classes of people. That is the point of this case and the reason for the resulting verdict.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Nothing from the photographer mentioned hate and vindictiveness. Your statement is purely injection as far as archaic and magical practices (oh the irony). But unfortunately... her business very could be affected which is what some are concerned about here.
The point of this case is to determine the rights of a small business owner and their rights vs. a customer and their rights. Each people group are protected under the constitution, civil rights and human rights. And under that can be unfolded specifics.
You need a greater command of the English language for people to interpret your opinions. I was saying that the gay couple turned vindictive when they found a photographer full of hate and bigotry.
My apologies! 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mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> performing the archaic and magical practices of her religion.
This what this entire thread is (or should be about) in terms of analyzing the application of this case in New Mexico.
I think that was the original intent, but discussion of whether that should be the law ensued, because of the possibility of some people being legally forced to do work that they would rather not do (for various possible reasons).
This is indeed how I feel "I only photograph traditional marriages" sounds to the couple. Inflammatory and discriminatory.
Sure, the term "traditional" sounds harmless enough to most people, but not the couple. Sure, the photographer sure could have been a LOT more insulting. But "traditional" still stings. It is still a faux-polite way of saying "I believe the love and compassion which you feel (with all your heart) to not only be deeply wrong, but also you may even burn in hell for it depending on how I interpret a certain book."
For the final time, I'll bottom-line it for y'all, since this discussion seems to be taking it's fifth or sixth whack at the dead horse we see here before us...
1.) Yep, the photographer is allowed to hold that belief. They're even allowed to state that belief to the face of a gay couple. That is the freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion.
2.) Yep, the photographer is allowed to refuse service. But only for legally recognized reasons. In restaurants for example, you certainly can kick out or refuse anyone who is being unruly, such as a drunken bum (or college frat kid) who would cause a scene in a family restaurant. And as a wedding photographer and small business owner, I have the right to decline a job if I think it is not a proper fit. As long as I can cite specific reasons that do not violate discrimination laws.
3.) Nope, you are NOT allowed to refuse service based on race, religion, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc. I found the following article to be very clearly written and helpful:
http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service
4.) Yep, it is scary to think that the government can force you to do something that is "against your religion". Behold, the two-edge sword that is freedom / separation of church and state. Don't like it? Maybe you should start your own country that more thoroughly protects your own beliefs?
I will put it as simply as I can: The government just can't protect YOUR beliefs at the expense of OTHERS beliefs. Especially not in business dealings. How is this such a complicated thing to understand?
The problem, in my opinion, is that many people are thinking in terms of "religion VS lifestyle", as if one can legally trump the other. Instead of what it really is, "belief VS belief"
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
That is the common perception in this case, but it is an incorrect assumption. The reality is that if you have a "public" business of any kind, and that includes photography, you must be prepared to serve everyone equally. By being a "public" business you have already made that agreement (not to unlawfully discriminate), whether you realize it or not.
In this case, the State of New Mexico is simply enforcing the agreement that the photography studio had already made to serve the public equally, by being a public business.
That's the other issue that is often misunderstood about this case. The State of New Mexico is simply enforcing the law as it pertains to human rights and public service (aka the photography studio services). The state is legally blind to the issues of personal beliefs.
You are correct that the state cannot protect one individual's beliefs over another individual's beliefs, but that doesn't apply in this case because, while beliefs were stated by the couple regarding their faith and their beliefs, it has no bearing on the law of the case. In other words, for the State of New Mexico (and in every other state in our Union), personal beliefs are no defense in breaking the law.
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-13-2012/the-vagina-ideologues---sean-hannity-s-holy-sausage-fest
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You can't always have everything you want, and here you have to make a choice between following your faith and making more money. I wouldn't blame you for taking the latter, but there's a thing about public advertising: If you cast a wide net, you can't complain about what it brings in.
"I'll meet with you to discuss the ceremony, but just so you know, I'm personally opposed to same-sex unions and I can't promise to deliver my best work in light of my beliefs. If you are okay with having a photographer who does not personally condone the ceremony, then we can discuss more details. If not, I understand if you choose to look elsewhere."
Are you allowed to disclose your personal beliefs when discussing business deals, or does she have to pretend that she's okay with it because she is offering her services as a "public" business?
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Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" 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mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> Is the statement/link you provided to make fun of Catholics, Jews & Christians or to prove a legitimate concern with Govt involvement?
It was probably for some much needed comedy relief. You watch the Daily Show to laugh, not to learn anything.
Which then begs the question - who chooses which special classes of people are deserving of this legal protection against discrimination, and which classes of people are not worthy of the equal protection under the law that's supposed to be guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?
Oh I get it - it was a jab making fun of the Catholics, Jews & Christians. Not cool and no place for that stuff here. I could on so many levels turn the mirror around on that!
If it's a state human rights act (as we are discussing here) - then it is generally that state's legislative branch.
Ding, ding, give the man a lollypop!
Sam
Sigh..... shaking head.....
No, its not making fun of religious people. What it is doing is pointing out that those few people who honestly think their government is attacking their faith or their religion are completely out of touch with reality.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Christians are being attached in this country by their very government. Give me a freakin' break.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...y-sausage-fest
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Kinda like the homosexual couples believing their human rights were attacked in their own country by one photographer. Let Stewart do a skit on that and slot in a video of human rights atrocities that are going on in certain other parts of the world. Real funny huh?
Plenty of Equal Opportunity Satirists, including Tom Lehrer more than 40 years ago
National Brotherhood Week
(And, lest my post isn't clear, YES, this is intended as light relief. Also, the point is that conflict between "special interest groups" is NOTHING new. The reason Tom Lehrer - and Stewart, for that matter - is funny is because it's all so true, and so universal. And if we can't find humour in the truth of our own human foibles, we're in sad trouble indeed....)
Divamum - That video is hilarious
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mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> No your understanding is not correct at all. Just using the statement and the video that is posted and turning it around. the video o wouldn’t be as funny if you call the posted video funny. Didn’t think a post like that had purpose or meaning to this thread…only offense.
A person has the right to be gay.
A person has the right to be straight
A person has the right to shoot gay weddings.
A person has the right to not shoot gay weddings.
The End.
I would hope it's ok to disclose your personal beliefs. To me this fits squarely within your first amendment right of free speech. It's also a lot more honest than saying, "you're busy that day".
Link to my Smugmug site
I do believe that you have missed the conclusion of our discussion, actually. I think many of us are agreeing that if you decide to open a business to "serve the public", you make a commitment to serve the public equally. So you do not have the right to REFUSE something on a basis if it is discriminatory.
Those public business owners / service provides who have a problem with that, well, maybe a public service business isn't the right career path for you... (Or, do as I do, and just pick-and-choose your battles. And, always be honest and up-front with your clients about your personal beliefs...)
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum