Conventional wisdom with a long IS lens with a long exposure..

JimKarczewski

So, everything you read about shooting a long lens (in this case a Canon 70-200/2.8 with 1.4TCIII) says turn off IS. I've tried this. I still keep getting shake and it's driving me nuts. I'm thinking it might be my RRS pano head which the 70-200 collar is mounted to (http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=Pano-Elem-Pkg&type=3&eq=&desc=Pano-Elements-Package%3a-For-single-row&key=it) The image shown is about how far I typically have my slider set back, so not sure if I should move it up to get more "solid" on the base or what.

Here is my issue. Shot last night I was screwing around with the crappy ozone haze trying to shoot fireworks in Chicago from right on the IN/IL state line. This is what I got:



All fine.. crappy haze and all of the city, however, you look closer and you see movement:



Again, IS was turned off as I've seen recommended pretty much everywhere when using a tripod. The camera is sitting on a rock steady Gitzo CF tripod and I was on concrete with only a slight breeze.

Thoughts?

ziggy53

What shutter speed?

What technique? (MLU, etc.)

JimKarczewski

ziggy53 wrote: »

What shutter speed?

What technique? (MLU, etc.)

These were LONG shutter shots, 6 seconds.. ISO 160. I'm thinking next time of taking the bar off and mounting the lens to the plate if I have enough room, or just moving the bar forward to see if it helps.. I know long exposures with a long lens will be difficult to keep 100% steady, but shouldn't be that difficult!

JimKarczewski

And no MLU.. I have to figure out how the hell to do that and I keep meaning to read my 5DII manual on how to do MLU shots.

Wayupthere

One trick I have used successfully on long shots is 2 tripods
When you have a long lens hanging out there it is hard to remain rock steady. But if you use a second tripod..even a el'cheapo..and crank it up so it just touches the bottom of the lens. Not connected in any way, just touching the end..that will make a big difference.
Gary

JC

First thing I'd try (before investing in new equipment like a second tripod) is mirror lock up. It's easy. In custom function III , menu lock up enable/disable.

6 seconds with those bright lights is definitely within the time period where mirror shake can be recorded.

Also, how are you triggering your shots?

NeilL

Try sandbagging your pod from centre column, MLU, cable shutter release, and stand close and upwind of the camera throughout, leave off the lens hood. I like Gary's idea of 2 pods, additionally.

Direction of movement is clear, one more or less smooth slide from upper right to lower left, with the movement happening at the beginning of the exposure. Is it the same and the same amount for every shot?

Neil

davev

Try the 2 second self timer, if you have a remote shutter release.
That should let the camera settle down after the mirror slap.

If you hang anything from the center of your tripod, make sure it can touch the ground.
Otherwise if there's any wind, it will be moving in the breeze and moving the tripod around even more.

ziggy53

As others have mentioned, run some tests with MLU. I bet you will see some improvement. Adding some mass to the tripod is another good idea. 2 tripods is a great idea, if the shot allows.

I even use a shooter's monopod, which has a v-cradle for a the top, to help secure the lens at times.

Something like this:

http://www.opticsplanet.com/allen-shooters-staff-21-61-inches-black-2163.html

JimKarczewski

Forgot to mention I was using a cable release. Maybe I'll go out tomorrow and try the MLU and sandbag since I have both of those... 2nd tripod would more likely be a lightstand.. but it should work if I can fit it in.


Thanks all

roakey

JimKarczewski wrote: »

...I was on concrete...

Just to be sure, concrete over solid ground, or a concrete parking structure or something?

O2

mstens

JimKarczewski wrote: »

Forgot to mention I was using a cable release. Maybe I'll go out tomorrow and try the MLU and sandbag since I have both of those... 2nd tripod would more likely be a lightstand.. but it should work if I can fit it in.


Thanks all

I've also tossed a small sandbag onto the camera body/lens camera body combo to help absorb additional vibrations. Mass is good at doing that.

JimKarczewski

roakey wrote: »

Just to be sure, concrete over solid ground, or a concrete parking structure or something?

O2

Solid ground...

ziggy53

Please remember that "solid ground" does not always equate to "free of vibrations". You mentioned that you were atop concrete. If it was a parking lot, for instance, it could be picking up vibrations from a nearby street, for instance.

A good method to check for vibrations is a 6-quart pot placed on the ground, best if it has a dark interior, with some water poured into the pot. Shield the pot from the wind and check for characteristic vibration waves in the water.

While carbon fiber tripods are pretty good at absorbing shock, they are not immune from ground vibration nor from wind. Best to cover all bases.

JimKarczewski

ziggy53 wrote: »

Please remember that "solid ground" does not always equate to "free of vibrations". You mentioned that you were atop concrete. If it was a parking lot, for instance, it could be picking up vibrations from a nearby street, for instance.

A good method to check for vibrations is a 6-quart pot placed on the ground, best if it has a dark interior, with some water poured into the pot. Shield the pot from the wind and check for characteristic vibration waves in the water.

While carbon fiber tripods are pretty good at absorbing shock, they are not immune from ground vibration nor from wind. Best to cover all bases.

Thx. I was on pretty solid ground, solid 15ft deep, 10ft wide pier 150ft from shore.. So pretty sure road vibrations weren't a problem.

davev

Okay, you guys are killing me.

When ever a tripod thread appears, the talk mostly goes to spending a small fortune on carbon fiber legs to save weight.
Now I'm seeing that by saving a pound on the legs, people will bring a 10 pound sand bag to sturdy it up.
And Ziggy, bring a 6 quart pot to do the Jurassic Park thing?
Have you ever done this?

Come on.

What I'd suggest.

1) Strip the lens and camera down, and mount the lens directly to the tripod. The more connections, the more chances for something to loosen and shift.
2) Turn off i.s.
3) Don't bring a 10 pound sand bag unless you're using it near your car. Your camera bag will probably work just fine.
But don't let it swing in the breeze. Have a short piece of rope and hang the bag down until some part of it touches the ground.
If it's swinging on the hook, it is not stabilizing the equipment, it's adding to the problem.
On a calm night, this probably isn't needed.
4) Use the 2 second self timer with a remote shutter release.
With my crop cameras, the mirror slap wasn't all that bad so I could just use the remote release.
It made timing the shot much easier.

Me, I'm normally on a bridge that shakes when a car goes by, using my $50 tripod, with a wider angle lens.
I take 8 second shots, over and over. As long as I don't change anything, I can add the shots together in Photoshop.

Some people like having the trail going from the ground to the explosion.


Others like having just the pop.


Me, I like B&W


Hope this helps.

NeilL

fascinating comments, and really lovely shots!

but, does it solve the OP's problem?

with my cable release you have to press it x2 if you have MLU, I think

Neil

davev wrote: »

Okay, you guys are killing me.

When ever a tripod thread appears, the talk mostly goes to spending a small fortune on carbon fiber legs to save weight.
Now I'm seeing that by saving a pound on the legs, people will bring a 10 pound sand bag to sturdy it up.
And Ziggy, bring a 6 quart pot to do the Jurassic Park thing?
Have you ever done this?

Come on.

What I'd suggest.

1) Strip the lens and camera down, and mount the lens directly to the tripod. The more connections, the more chances for something to loosen and shift.
2) Turn off i.s.
3) Don't bring a 10 pound sand bag unless you're using it near your car. Your camera bag will probably work just fine.
But don't let it swing in the breeze. Have a short piece of rope and hang the bag down until some part of it touches the ground.
If it's swinging on the hook, it is not stabilizing the equipment, it's adding to the problem.
On a calm night, this probably isn't needed.
4) Use the 2 second self timer with a remote shutter release.
With my crop cameras, the mirror slap wasn't all that bad so I could just use the remote release.
It made timing the shot much easier.

Me, I'm normally on a bridge that shakes when a car goes by, using my $50 tripod, with a wider angle lens.
I take 8 second shots, over and over. As long as I don't change anything, I can add the shots together in Photoshop.

Some people like having the trail going from the ground to the explosion.


Others like having just the pop.


Me, I like B&W


Hope this helps.

davev

NeilL wrote: »

fascinating comments, and really lovely shots!

but, does it solve the OP's problem?

with my cable release you have to press it x2 if you have MLU, I think

Neil

If you don't use MLU, you don't have to press twice right?

I've always gone with the 2 second timer. I can't remember ever having a problem with shake going that route.

I think the biggest problem the OP has is to many connections under the camera/lens.
I screw the tripod directly to the lens. Less joints and less height should help.
Speaking of less height, do you have the center column (if there is one) all the way down?

If you look at the blur in the shot, it's going more sideways, not so much up and down.
That would lead me to believe that either the wind is grabbing it via the lens hood or by moving the tripod.

MLU probably isn't going to fix what's going on in their shot.

So yes, I think my comments could help the OP out.
The other stuff is just observations that I've made from reading so many posts about tripods over the years.

I have to admit that the one from Ziggy about the pan with water is a new one to me.
I'm not saying it couldn't work, but when I think back of all the places I've been to shoot,
with so many different people, I have yet see this.
It could be that he's just ahead of the curve.

puzzledpaul

JimKarczewski wrote: »

Thx. I was on pretty solid ground, solid 15ft deep, 10ft wide pier 150ft from shore.. So pretty sure road vibrations weren't a problem.

Waves / water motion?

Re weighted bags, just take an empty bag and fill it with locally available stuff (assuming don't want to use cam bag or it's too light)

NeilL

yeah dave I got it!

I agree, I don't think it's mirror slap, the trail is smooth in one direction and relatively slow. either it's something in the gear settling after adjustment (why I asked about other shots from the same shoot - my ball head always droops a little after an adjustment with all the weight on it - I have to give it a sec or two and then check), or it's environmental, eg just the OP standing back to fire with the remote and exposing gear to wind thereby could be enough

Neil

davev wrote: »

If you don't use MLU, you don't have to press twice right?

I've always gone with the 2 second timer. I can't remember ever having a problem with shake going that route.

I think the biggest problem the OP has is to many connections under the camera/lens.
I screw the tripod directly to the lens. Less joints and less height should help.
Speaking of less height, do you have the center column (if there is one) all the way down?

If you look at the blur in the shot, it's going more sideways, not so much up and down.
That would lead me to believe that either the wind is grabbing it via the lens hood or by moving the tripod.

MLU probably isn't going to fix what's going on in their shot.

So yes, I think my comments could help the OP out.
The other stuff is just observations that I've made from reading so many posts about tripods over the years.

I have to admit that the one from Ziggy about the pan with water is a new one to me.
I'm not saying it couldn't work, but when I think back of all the places I've been to shoot,
with so many different people, I have yet see this.
It could be that he's just ahead of the curve.

ziggy53

davev wrote: »

...
And Ziggy, bring a 6 quart pot to do the Jurassic Park thing?
Have you ever done this?

Come on. ...

Yes, I have.

Back in the late 1960's, I was on the "grind team" for a home-built 12½" reflector telescope (specifically, a Newtonian/Cassegrain convertible design.) (I still possess the grind log for that build.) At the time, it was the second finest instrument of it's kind in the area, bowing only to a 16" at the local junior college, which was also a community project.

After the telescope was finished and mounted onto a trailer with a home-built equatorial mount (this predates the popularity of Dobsonian mounts), we noticed similar motion problems with our astro-photography. It was our science advisor, who was also our science teacher from the local high-school, who suggested using the pot of water to help isolate the ground vibration component from the wind vibration component. Subsequently, the trailer and EQ mount were both beefed up, and we started getting better photographic results.

(We also noted that letting some air out of the trailer tires helped with ground vibrations. We had scissor jacks to help stabilize the trailer when wind was a bigger problem.)

The pot of water technique dates back to rather ancient times. A shallow water well can also show ground vibrations, especially if the well has a smooth and circular lining. (It's the circular shape which sets up a wave front which converges at the center, creating the focused visible peak.)

Want something higher tech? http://www.bgmicro.com/GeophoneKit.aspx

Yes, I'm a nerd.