A question. No image.

TonyCooper

I process my images in Photoshop CS4. I've never used
a plug-in like Nik's Silver Efex Pro. But, I'm interested.

Part of me says that's like shooting on Auto, and part of
me says do what makes the images work better.

What do those here do? I don't mean methods of
converting color to black and white. I've tried most
of those, and have my own system. I mean do it
from scratch in PS or LR or use a plug-in...and which
one.

I would prefer this thread not be moved to another
forum. I think the challenges of "street" are different
from processing landscapes or portraits. We often
shoot in harsher light, in less controlled conditions,
and with less time to adjust settings because we
are often processing grab shots.

Richard

My computer is not up to running SEP (4 GB RAM recommended) but I plan to get it whenever I get a new machine. While you can probably do everything that SEP does in Photoshop, some of the targeted adjustments require so much work in PS that I simply don't bother. Tweaking a few sliders is certainly preferable to complex selections, filters, masking and blend-if settings. My B&W workflow is patially automated and fast in CS5. It gives me pretty decent results most of the time, but lacks SEP's ability to do selective sharpening in different tonal ranges, for example.

I understand your comparison to shooting in auto mode. One does see images that just scream SEP, much like we have seen some that are obviously processed with Photomatix. In both cases, I think it's just because people are lazily applying presets rather than learning to control the tool to achieve the effects they want. That's not the fault of the tools.

MarkR

I have used both SEP and LR to make black and whites. Both are good-- LR is surprisingly good. Where SEP shines is that you can do regional adjustments that blend in more naturally the brushes that LR uses. I believe that SEP's "Structure" to give a more pleasing effect than LR's Clarity, but that's a personal preference.

Of course, I'm probably not the right person to answer this, since most (90%) of my images are COLOR.

Froch

I think SEP is outstanding. If I'm reading you correctly, you're worried that SEP will be doing the work for you? And you'll feel it doesn't have enough of your hand in it? I think you have the exact same control you'd have in LR, but more. I believe LR give you a starting point on the conversion, then you take if from there. The same happens in SEP. And you have the same ability to zero everything out and start from scratch. The control is amazing though, and beautiful thing is you can build your own pre-set, for the look that defines your style. It's worth a look.

TonyCooper

Froch wrote: »

I think SEP is outstanding. If I'm reading you correctly, you're worried that SEP will be doing the work for you? And you'll feel it doesn't have enough of your hand in it? I think you have the exact same control you'd have in LR, but more. I believe LR give you a starting point on the conversion, then you take if from there. The same happens in SEP. And you have the same ability to zero everything out and start from scratch. The control is amazing though, and beautiful thing is you can build your own pre-set, for the look that defines your style. It's worth a look.

I fully understand that any changes can be re-set, changed, or discarded
individually or globally. I also understand that I can control the specifics of the
changes. I'm fairly experienced in PS editing.

I also understand that I can download trials of SEP, Viveza2, OnOne, and
whatever other plug-ins that have black and white conversion tools.

I think what I'm trying to do here is get a feel for what others are using
and why. Why use them if we can get there using what is already
available (in my case, CS4), which is the best to work with, and what
the experiences are of others doing similar photography.

The idea of control points (or whatever the program calls them) compared
to the relatively global changes in PS (unless tedious masking is added
to the steps) appeals to me, but I'm not sure if they are a less tedious
route than I'm already able to use.

Downloading a trial is certainly the way to know for sure, but fully
understanding the programs working with a trial takes time, so
I'm looking for some comments from people who use the programs.
And, comments more about the general opinion and not comments
about the specifics.

TonyCooper

Richard wrote: »

I understand your comparison to shooting in auto mode. One does see images that just scream SEP, much like we have seen some that are obviously processed with Photomatix. In both cases, I think it's just because people are lazily applying presets rather than learning to control the tool to achieve the effects they want. That's not the fault of the tools.

That's a very valid point. I've tried pre-sets, but not been successful in
using them. One shot is of someone standing on a sidewalk in our
bright and blinding Florida sun where the sidewalk is blown out no
matter what the camera settings are, and the next shot is someone
in the shade where I want contrast between dark objects.

By the time I go through my pre-sets to find the one that could apply
to each image, I might as well go the manual route.

As far as "screaming" effects, we have a joke at our camera club
competitions that we should add a category for Topaz treatments so
some of us can take a break and go outside and chat during the
showing of this group.

jiro

What I like about SEP is that it has a built-in Zone System guide on the lower right so you know if you are way out of your exposure range or not. I happen to get acquainted with Nik's SEP through another old friend here (Rob Carregwen). I was amazed at his black and white rendition of simple kitchen stuffs. Luscious blacks, and silky whites but with details I can't seem to achieve with PS. The learning curve is not that bad for SEP. IMO, the simpler way to work on your image is to have a reference work or something that you want to emulate from others. See how they set up their black points. How about the whites? Midtones are the most critical in any black and white photography and that's is where the beauty of SEP shows - midtones.

I have about 7 custom settings with my SEP, each mimicking an specific type of black and white film emulsion and I tweaked it with my own preferences. SEP (if you go with film types) can let you adjust the "film's" sensitivity to each color's spectrum much like the black and white adjustment layer in CS5 and CS6. Since I have a reference black and white photograph that I really want to emulate it's much easier for me to adjust the sliders to arrive at the effect that I want. I've been using SEP for almost a year now and for me this is one of the best investment I made on a software. It lets me be creative without letting the software control me but rather I control the software on how I want to achieve my desired result. I don't think you'll be sorry that you bought a copy, Tony. I'm still new to photography so imagine what you can achieve with SEP and PS considering your vast knowledge of both film and digital medium. Good luck.

TonyCooper

[QUOTE=jiro;1799736 ... considering your vast knowledge
[/QUOTE]

Why does the word "half" come to mind?

Seriously, though, thanks for your input.

bdcolen

Okay, I am going to be brutally frank:
If SEP is so terrific, why don't I see that in the conversions of those of you who say you're using it? Really. There is no one on this list who's conversions blow me away. That is NOT to say that there aren't people who do an excellent job of converting. But I would never have guessed that those of you who say you are using SEP are using some magic program that applies different levels, settings, etc., to different parts of your images. Sorry.

So the bottom line is just use what works for you. ;-)

MarkR

bdcolen wrote: »

Okay, I am going to be brutally frank:
If SEP is so terrific, why don't I see that in the conversions of those of you who say you're using it? Really. There is no one on this list who's conversions blow me away. That is NOT to say that there aren't people who do an excellent job of converting. But I would never have guessed that those of you who say you are using SEP are using some magic program that applies different levels, settings, etc., to different parts of your images. Sorry.

So the bottom line is just use what works for you. ;-)

I once was floored by a b&w and PM'd the person to ask what she used (I think it was Michswiss!). The response I got: Apple Aperture.

So ya, just as anything else photographic, the tools are the least important part of the equation. BUT it's also fun to play with the different sliders and fiddly bits, so there is that ...

TonyCooper

bdcolen wrote: »

Okay, I am going to be brutally frank:
If SEP is so terrific, why don't I see that in the conversions of those of you who say you're using it? Really. There is no one on this list who's conversions blow me away. That is NOT to say that there aren't people who do an excellent job of converting. But I would never have guessed that those of you who say you are using SEP are using some magic program that applies different levels, settings, etc., to different parts of your images. Sorry.

So the bottom line is just use what works for you. ;-)

I am NOT asking how you do your conversions, because that is
a topic for the "Technique" or "Finishing School" forum, but in
what program do you do them?

I' ve been generally happy with mine done in CS4, but I'm always
willing to learn and try something new.

rainbow

bdcolen wrote: »

Okay, I am going to be brutally frank:
There is no one on this list who's conversions blow me away. QUOTE]

Some of Froch's stuff blows me away... not posted in this forum.

I started with DPP (free! and simple) and now use LR3, which has nice sliders for different colors in b/w. I am currently not considering upgrades because I really dislike spending more time on PP and learning a new program would be tedious for me. Most of my b/w is posted on this forum and so there is no income/contest/greater population at large to impress (so I'm saving my money and sanity on impressing B. D. ... )

TonyCooper

MarkR wrote: »

I once was floored by a b&w and PM'd the person to ask what she used (I think it was Michswiss!). The response I got: Apple Aperture.

I once did the same with Liz and asked her what her system or
program she used in processing in black and white because I admire
her work. She seemed surprised that I thought she had a system.
She said she just works on the image.