D800: Would low light images improve in crop mode?

EphTwoEight · August 16, 2012

Or stay the same.

For night time outdoor sports.

If I was to use my 70-200 2.8 in the 1.5x mode, would the low-light high-ISO be about the same either way?
thanks

perroneford · August 17, 2012

EphTwoEight wrote: »

Or stay the same.

For night time outdoor sports.

If I was to use my 70-200 2.8 in the 1.5x mode, would the low-light high-ISO be about the same either way?
thanks

Should be the same.

jhefti · August 17, 2012

I can't speak to using crop mode per se, but I do notice that I can't crop as heavily in low light shots. Basically what seems to happen is that the denoising algorithms--wherever in the workflow they are being applied--blur and soften the edges. In addition, noise becomes more visible the tighter the crop. At least, this is my experience...

EphTwoEight · August 18, 2012

Well, I tried it, and the pics look ok. But the pics were almost all awful. very soft and/or blurry.

Night time football game, 70-200 2.8 vr2. Auto ISO up to 3200, tried all the different AF modes. seriously let down.

perroneford · August 18, 2012

EphTwoEight wrote: »

Well, I tried it, and the pics look ok. But the pics were almost all awful. very soft and/or blurry.
Night time football game, 70-200 2.8 vr2. Auto ISO up to 3200, tried all the different AF modes. seriously let down.

Let down by the camera or yourself? Shooting fast action at night is tough. We used to do it with manual focus. I haven't had any issues with the D800, but I've also been at this for almost 30 years. Keep practicing.

jhefti · August 18, 2012

EphTwoEight wrote: »

Well, I tried it, and the pics look ok. But the pics were almost all awful. very soft and/or blurry.
Night time football game, 70-200 2.8 vr2. Auto ISO up to 3200, tried all the different AF modes. seriously let down.

Night games are really tough. And there are various degrees of tough as well. One stadium I shoot at requires ISO 12,500 to get any decent action shots, and many of the shooters just try to get decent non-action shots for their takes.

The softness/blurriness could either be caused by AF issues or de-noising--or of course some combination of both. Did you shoot RAW? If not, the camera may be applying its de-noising algorithm too strongly. I don't know about the D800--though it strikes me as more of a landscape machine than a sports machine, given its 36MP sensor--but ISO 3200 is not that high for many cameras these days. I routinely shoot that high with my Canon 1D4 and 5D2 bodies, with decent results.

The only AF mode I would use is servo, and using a single AF point. There are way too many contrasts in a night game that the camera would love to lock in on; most of which have nothing to do with the subject. I would also shoot RAW and apply de-noising in PP, so that you only de-noise what is in the final crop. If you're really ambitious, you can even selectively de-noise in PS. This is useful for dark/black backgrounds that often display noise more strongly.

John

EphTwoEight · August 18, 2012

Thanks for the replies, and advice.

The pics they used are here.

The bigger one was using crop mode 1.5x f/2.8 1/125 at 1250 ISO
The smaller one was full frame f/2.8 1/160 at 3200 ISO.

I think you're right about the single point AF, I'll try that next time. Seems like I tried the 9, 21, 51, auto, 3d, AF-S AF-C and at the end tried the single and that seemed to work.

perroneford · August 19, 2012

EphTwoEight wrote: »

The bigger one was using crop mode 1.5x f/2.8 1/125 at 1250 ISO
The smaller one was full frame f/2.8 1/160 at 3200 ISO.

Focus was not your problem. Shooting aperture priority at a night game with 1250 ISO...not gonna work. You need to be getting shutter speeds in the 1/400 - 1/500 range minimum.

EphTwoEight · August 19, 2012

Well, crap, so 6400 ISO? I can afford much faster of a lens. Or a D4.

Matthew Saville · August 19, 2012

jhefti wrote: »

Night games are really tough. And there are various degrees of tough as well. One stadium I shoot at requires ISO 12,500 to get any decent action shots, and many of the shooters just try to get decent non-action shots for their takes.

The softness/blurriness could either be caused by AF issues or de-noising--or of course some combination of both. Did you shoot RAW? If not, the camera may be applying its de-noising algorithm too strongly. I don't know about the D800--though it strikes me as more of a landscape machine than a sports machine, given its 36MP sensor--but ISO 3200 is not that high for many cameras these days. I routinely shoot that high with my Canon 1D4 and 5D2 bodies, with decent results.

The only AF mode I would use is servo, and using a single AF point. There are way too many contrasts in a night game that the camera would love to lock in on; most of which have nothing to do with the subject. I would also shoot RAW and apply de-noising in PP, so that you only de-noise what is in the final crop. If you're really ambitious, you can even selectively de-noise in PS. This is useful for dark/black backgrounds that often display noise more strongly.

John

I would also recommend testing and using the different focus tracking lock modes, you may need to turn the tracking down to "Low" or "High" based on how erratic your subject's movement is, and how often other subjects pass through the foreground.

I don't shoot stadium action sports, but in nearly pitch-black dance floor situations at weddings where I shoot every weekend, I prefer the 9-point focus assist option over the single point option. This seems to help a lot when I'm in AF-C as well as AF-S...

Overall, I'd say that if you're shooting night time stadium stuff, you might just be better off with a D3s or a D4. That will give you the absolute best shot at both focus tracking perfection, and clean high ISO's.

The D800 is just a different beast. If it were meant for sports action, they would have included a 6-8 FPS mode with some sort of sRAW format. Like on the 5D mk3...

=Matt=

babowc · August 19, 2012

Turn off your built in noise reduction..
I have had much better results with NR turned off.
ISO 6400 provides pretty decent images, from my experience.
I haven't enough experience with AF-C, but it worked well with children running around the house.

Matthew Saville · August 19, 2012

babowc wrote: »

Turn off your built in noise reduction..
I have had much better results with NR turned off.
ISO 6400 provides pretty decent images, from my experience.
I haven't enough experience with AF-C, but it worked well with children running around the house.

Unless you're shooting JPG, the noise reduction settings don't matter. Having said that, if I WERE going to shoot JPG I would keep the NR turned on at a low / medium setting, and then also set the sharpening to a low / medium setting. This has usually given me the best results from all the Nikon DSLR's that I've tested, although admittedly I haven't yet done very extensive testing with the same parameters on a D800...

=Matt=

perroneford · August 19, 2012

I hate to see this happen to people. And I think it's one reason people give up on this. Shooting sports is hard. Shooting sports at night without the gear is nearly impossible. There is nothing wrong with a 70-200. I love mine. But if you are going to shoot Foobtall or other big field sports, you just don't have enough lens. So your camera is trying to focus on a target that is very small in the frame most of the time, and it's simply asking too much. You are shooting with a lens that is marginal, using a body that's not designed for what you're using it for. And given what I saw of your shots, you still have a bit of learning to do. Very tough scenario to get solid shots.

So, you can do a few things.

1. Stay with daytime sports where you have adequate light
2. Try to trade that 70-200 on a used 300/2.8
3. Trade out of that D800 for a D3 or D3s
4. Live with what you have and learn to shoot more effectively.

Each of these has plusses and minuses. Only you can determine the path forward.

I shoot a lot of night stadium sports work. And I can tell you, on the D800 body, I'd be in 9pt, AF-C, full frame, and trying to fill the frame as much as possible. It's really the only viable way to get this done.

EphTwoEight · August 20, 2012

Thanks again Matt and Perrone, I'd love to have that equipment, but I just dont see anyway to recover them kinds of costs from our small town. This is still just a hobby, and if I tried to make it profitable maybe I'd not want to do it anymore?

If the publishers have me do it again, I'll certainly try the things mentioned above.

T. Bombadil · August 21, 2012

Matthew Saville wrote: »

. . .Overall, I'd say that if you're shooting night time stadium stuff, you might just be better off with a D3s or a D4. That will give you the absolute best shot at both focus tracking perfection, and clean high ISO's.

The D800 is just a different beast. If it were meant for sports action, they would have included a 6-8 FPS mode with some sort of sRAW format. Like on the 5D mk3...

=Matt=

I thought the D4 and the D800 shared the same autofocus system. Aside from frame rate, the D800 and D4 should perform similarly (given same size print or display as the goal, the D800's extra pixels mitigate its higher pixel density).

Matthew Saville · August 21, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

I thought the D4 and the D800 shared the same autofocus system. Aside from frame rate, the D800 and D4 should perform similarly (given same size print or display as the goal, the D800's extra pixels mitigate its higher pixel density).

I never trust what's written on the spec sheets. From everything I've heard in the real world about the autofocus of all the new generation cameras, the D4 does have an edge in acquisition and tracking capabilities.

Admittedly I'm sure the D800's autofocus is no slouch, even for erratic subject tracking. I'm just saying that if this is what you're shooting day in and day out, the D800 isn't the optimal camera for the task...

=Matt=

perroneford · August 21, 2012

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Admittedly I'm sure the D800's autofocus is no slouch, even for erratic subject tracking. I'm just saying that if this is what you're shooting day in and day out, the D800 isn't the optimal camera for the task...

=Matt=

I shoot sports regularly with my D800, but I have to agree with this comment.

T. Bombadil · August 21, 2012

Matthew Saville wrote: »

From everything I've heard in the real world about the autofocus of all the new generation cameras, the D4 does have an edge in acquisition and tracking capabilities.

=Matt=

Interesting.

T. Bombadil · August 21, 2012

perroneford wrote: »

I shoot sports regularly with my D800, but I have to agree with this comment.

Do you agree with the comment that the D4 has an edge in focus acquisition and tracking, or just the general feeling that a D4 is better suited for sports?

babowc · August 21, 2012

The two, D800 and D4, were compared.
Although they had same specs, I believe the comparison resulted in far different results for AF accuracy.
I'll try to find the link/video.

perroneford · August 22, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

Do you agree with the comment that the D4 has an edge in focus acquisition and tracking, or just the general feeling that a D4 is better suited for sports?

I agree with both sentiments. I don't think my D800 acquires as well as my D3s to be honest.

T. Bombadil · August 22, 2012

perroneford wrote: »

I agree with both sentiments. I don't think my D800 acquires as well as my D3s to be honest.

Good to know.

jhefti · August 24, 2012

Matthew Saville wrote: »

I would also recommend testing and using the different focus tracking lock modes, you may need to turn the tracking down to "Low" or "High" based on how erratic your subject's movement is, and how often other subjects pass through the foreground.

I don't shoot stadium action sports, but in nearly pitch-black dance floor situations at weddings where I shoot every weekend, I prefer the 9-point focus assist option over the single point option. This seems to help a lot when I'm in AF-C as well as AF-S...

=Matt=

Good point about the tracking lock; I totally forgot to mention this. It's really important to choose wisely. I almost always use the slowest setting, but I needed to learn how to refocus quickly. The slow setting keeps me on my subject better, but it's easy to forget to lift one's finger off the shutter and re-lock when needed. At least, it took me a while.

Regarding AF point expansion, I have never had much luck with this. Basically, I get fewer totally OOF shots, but also far fewer totally in-focus shots. with AF expansion, the camera has to make a choice as to where the actual intended focus point is, and it often gets it wrong. If my shots are not completely in focus, they're worthless for my purposes. And since I usually shoot sports wide open, the DOF is very shallow; it doesn't take much for the shot to be OOF.

D800: Would low light images improve in crop mode?

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