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Photography and Computers

Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
edited August 20, 2012 in Digital Darkroom
This thread is to discuss the use of computers in the realm of photography. I've created it mainly to continue a discussion started in another unrelated thread.

My original comment suggested that laptops should not be considered a main workstation (sole computer) and only be used for a remote terminal. This brought forth a series of comments. In an effort not to hijack the original thread, I've started this one.
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 18, 2012
    In an effort to start fresh I'll try to summarize my original comments:
    A user commented that he had a 2nd-hand laptop that he was going to use with the purchase of his first DSLR. While this is definitely a do-able scenario, I made the general comments that many newbie digital photographers spend way too much time and money on cameras and lenses, and completely overlook the needed computer equipment (ie: $3000 of camera with a $500 laptop).
    Laptops were and never will be designed as a main workstation. With that said, many can and will justify the use of a laptop as a sole computer based on limited use. I will add that while today's laptops have made leaps in speed and capacity, their basic physical restrictions (slow internal plumbing, limited processors, limited ram, limited drives, etc) make them a poor investment for a sole photography computer if you plan is to go pro (or even semi-pro).
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 18, 2012
    Backup Comments
    I would also like to open this thread up to discuss your backup regime. What do you do with your images? How do you back them up? How do your organize them on your computer?
    I personally am looking for a better way of doing things and would be interested in hearing how others may be handling things.
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    AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited August 18, 2012
    I call :bigbs

    Calibrate your laptop, and know and understand the color and what the output is (screen, browser, print) and a laptop is just fine for editing. I use both, a Mac Pro for when I'm in my studio and a Macbook Air for when I'm traveling and I have no problem producing quality images from my laptop.
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    JCJC Registered Users Posts: 768 Major grins
    edited August 18, 2012
    I'm not really competent to discuss the color and brightness fidelity of my laptop screen compared to professional setups, but it's just as good as my low-end IPS external monitor once calibrated.

    For still image editing? You can easily get a laptop that has all the speed, processing capacity and internal memory to handle any job. What do you think are the minimum necessary bus and RAM necessary to edit images and store database information? This conversation will just be totally anecdotal until someone starts throwing money around.

    About those anecdotes.

    I don't shoot professionally, but I can process a stack of 800 images on my 5 year old <$1000 laptop, easily. Haven't quite gone to a thousand images yet. I've got thousands of images in my Digikam database, not a problem, I can't think of any other stress test of image processing right now. Stitching 20 images with Hugin and outputting to 16 bit? Not a problem. 16 bit raw editing? Not a problem in my RAW converter.

    I run hugely complex GIS projects with gigbyte sized images on a laptop that was designed as a full workstation. Biggest problem is the NTFS file system I'm stuck with on the windows side.

    Heck, I know people analyzing the Mars data from MSL and MER on laptops, exclusively.

    Where i work, desktops serve basically one purpose, to serve as computers that won't walk away and can be dedicated to singular purposes. They aren't chosen because they have more capability or resources than laptops, they are chosen for their permanence.

    People I know that need more speed or processing capability just hook up to server clusters, irregardless of whether their primary computer is a desktop or a laptop.
    Yeah, if you recognize the avatar, new user name.
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 18, 2012
    Andy wrote: »
    I call :bigbs

    Calibrate your laptop, and know and understand the color and what the output is (screen, browser, print) and a laptop is just fine for editing. I use both, a Mac Pro for when I'm in my studio and a Macbook Air for when I'm traveling and I have no problem producing quality images from my laptop.

    Andy, I think you missed my original point. I too use a MacPro as a main computer and a MacBook Pro when away. My point is not if you can produce a quality image from a laptop... my point is that a laptop will fall short in handling/managing/storing large amounts of images SOLELY as your ONLY computer. Above and beyond the limitations, one should consider the ease of theft, the higher possibility of physical damage (drops, etc), and ergonomic issues, to mention a few. Having all your priceless images stored only on your laptop would scare the hell out of me. One "oops moment" and you could loose you entire business.
    Some users certainly can make due with a laptop when starting out, but should plan on upgrading to a workstation (ie: desktop computer) when graduating to large image libraries, or other means of digital output (ie: slideshow movies, 3d slideshows, dvd/BluRay authoring, etc).

    To summarize my original point, when considering a jump into digital photography, one should consider your computer needs just as much as you consider your camera needs.
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    Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Andy wrote: »
    I call :bigbs

    Calibrate your laptop, and know and understand the color and what the output is (screen, browser, print) and a laptop is just fine for editing. I use both, a Mac Pro for when I'm in my studio and a Macbook Air for when I'm traveling and I have no problem producing quality images from my laptop.


    I agree completely.....for a great many years, there have been laptops in various configuration , notebooks, then netbooks and DESKTOP REPLACEMENTS... ... ... and the desktop replacements were around long before the smallish tiny netbooks ... ... i know lots of people ruing their businesses off laptops and they are totally happy with them....yes a desktop replacement laptop is going to be heavier, more rugged and better built than your standard laptop to run like mine...24/7/365 ...My Dell studio 1745 runs 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week all year long....I shut it down to clear cache and to run spyware once a week...it has been running non stop for over 3yrs....not only is it my complete darkroom, but it is also my stereo and i watch movies on it also......I bought the extended warranty for $150 so if it dies it is covered ... ... I would not put it into a backpack and cart it around while out shooting but taking it to a wedding and setting it up to download as I am shooting no problem....still running on the original battery also....I use the laptop screen when traveling and I have a larger screen for when I am not traveling...then the laptop screen holds the tools and the external screen is my work palette ......so yes a laptop will do just fine.....
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

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    Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    Andy, I think you missed my original point. I too use a MacPro as a main computer and a MacBook Pro when away. My point is not if you can produce a quality image from a laptop... my point is that a laptop will fall short in handling/managing/storing large amounts of images SOLELY as your ONLY computer. Above and beyond the limitations, one should consider the ease of theft, the higher possibility of physical damage (drops, etc), and ergonomic issues, to mention a few. Having all your priceless images stored only on your laptop would scare the hell out of me. One "oops moment" and you could loose you entire business.
    Some users certainly can make due with a laptop when starting out, but should plan on upgrading to a workstation (ie: desktop computer) when graduating to large image libraries, or other means of digital output (ie: slideshow movies, 3d slideshows, dvd/BluRay authoring, etc).

    To summarize my original point, when considering a jump into digital photography, one should consider your computer needs just as much as you consider your camera needs.

    Who in their right mind stores their images on their computer...whether laptop or desktop....I have over 45 hardrives from 500gb to 2tb......I use external drives when traveling and I have Thermaltake docks that hold the current working drives.....and then my final jpgs are being stored on SMUGMUG as my final back up...... I also know sound designers and lighting designers that use laptops exclusively......
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Art Scott wrote: »
    I agree completely.....for a great many years, there have been laptops in various configuration , notebooks, then netbooks and DESKTOP REPLACEMENTS... ... ... and the desktop replacements were around long before the smallish tiny netbooks ... ... i know lots of people ruing their businesses off laptops and they are totally happy with them....yes a desktop replacement laptop is going to be heavier, more rugged and better built than your standard laptop to run like mine...24/7/365 ...My Dell studio 1745 runs 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week all year long....I shut it down to clear cache and to run spyware once a week...it has been running non stop for over 3yrs....not only is it my complete darkroom, but it is also my stereo and i watch movies on it also......I bought the extended warranty for $150 so if it dies it is covered ... ... I would not put it into a backpack and cart it around while out shooting but taking it to a wedding and setting it up to download as I am shooting no problem....still running on the original battery also....I use the laptop screen when traveling and I have a larger screen for when I am not traveling...then the laptop screen holds the tools and the external screen is my work palette ......so yes a laptop will do just fine.....

    Art, how would you manage if your laptop hit the ground at a wedding and killed the HD? Your warranty certainly wouldn't replace your images. I'm not trying to be a smartaxx, but merely trying to make you and others think about the "what if's".
    I've been a photographer for 40+yrs and have used computers since '87. In this time I've seen almost everything happen. I feel that I'm fairly well prepared for a disaster, but recently had one anyway.
    I find that most people are totally unprepared for a disaster.
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    JCJC Registered Users Posts: 768 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    my point is that a laptop will fall short in handling/managing/storing large amounts of images SOLELY as your ONLY computer.

    Why? what sort of processing power do you think you need? I really think you need to back this statement up with specifics, Processor speed, video card capability, bus speed, RAM, before you'll be able to argue this point.


    Rufus280 wrote: »
    Above and beyond the limitations, one should consider the ease of theft, the higher possibility of physical damage (drops, etc), and ergonomic issues, to mention a few. Having all your priceless images stored only on your laptop would scare the hell out of me. One "oops moment" and you could loose you entire business.

    These are not laptop specific worries. I take my laptop into the field, terrible conditions, and I have a Dell accidental damage warranty. Yeah, easier to damage a laptop, that's the trade-off for portability, but you can damage desktops just as well, power surges more likely if they plugged in 24/7, damage at home while you are away, etc. I'd say on this point it's a draw. Storing images only on a laptop is just as stupid as only storing images on a desktop. How many desktop users have their backup harddrive sitting right next to the desktop? I have a terabyte + 500MB back up at home, and at work, to back up my laptops, and with the laptop it's easy, no remembering to move the external disk drives around, and no bandwidth drain using remote servers.
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    Some users certainly can make due with a laptop when starting out, but should plan on upgrading to a workstation (ie: desktop computer) when graduating to large image libraries, or other means of digital output (ie: slideshow movies, 3d slideshows, dvd/BluRay authoring, etc).
    Again, I think you need to put some numbers to this argument for it to convince the laptop defenders.
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    To summarize my original point, when considering a jump into digital photography, one should consider your computer needs just as much as you consider your camera needs.
    Yeah, if you recognize the avatar, new user name.
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    Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    Art, how would you manage if your laptop hit the ground at a wedding and killed the HD? Your warranty certainly wouldn't replace your images. I'm not trying to be a smartaxx, but merely trying to make you and others think about the "what if's".
    I've been a photographer for 40+yrs and have used computers since '87. In this time I've seen almost everything happen. I feel that I'm fairly well prepared for a disaster, but recently had one anyway.
    I find that most people are totally unprepared for a disaster.

    the same way i would react if using a desktop and it was hit by an electrical spike...When shooting film I only had one copy..the neg or transparency (60's to early 90's)....when I went digital I had a compact sized computer..so I learned the value of backing up everything...actually i learned that back in the late 70's when I worked in the computer manufacturing and R&D industry [back when a small office computer was 6 1/2' x 2 1/2' x 32" and printers used 3 pin heads for matrix printing and SCSI had nor USB was yet around)...

    Ok for your actual question.....if my laptop hits the ground at a wedding...well I would have to rent one till this one was fixed....my extended warranty covers any type of mishap...I also believe wholeheartedly in INSURANCE....replacement value ...no depreciation.....My "C" drive holds software only..all of which is also on disks including all software purchased as a down load...I have perfect 3 clones of my "C" also...these are re-cloned anytime I load software or a major update is done......and for my wedding images...I will still ahve all of the wedding images on the original CF cards of which I now own 25 of ....the crux of which are 8gb with a few 16gb and 1 32gb....

    SIMPLY PUT I HAVE 3 BACK UPS OF EVERYTHING...SO IF MY HOUSE BURNS AND ALL OF MY FILES BURN UP IN IT...I simply go across town and open a large browning gun safe and retrieve what i need to go again...HDD's and so on....if the building with the browning safe burns, well the whole neighbor hood will be seeing lots of fireworks considering the amount of ammo in it plus the building houses lot of caned gunpowder and loaded shells...then my third is another safe loaded with hdd's......so unless it is a nuclear attack I am covered...so it is not whether or not one uses desktop or laptop but whether one is backed up.....I have not really found a cloud service I want to use as the ones I have looked at so far the machine must stay connected or it will dump your back ups and I have not found one I really like that will allow the uploading of raw files...so I will stay with hard drives that get totally swapped out with in one year of the end of their warranty.....I also have covered my butt with recovery software and in the event that a hdd cannot be recovered with said software then it is off to a recovery company that actually rebuilds the hdd in another case using only the platters from the dead drive....

    Still to the point of your original post....a laptop will work just fine...one does not need a desktop...the trick is buying a beefy enuff laptop to do the required work....my Dell 1745 Studio was a refurb and was under $800 and it wasn't until the primary warranty ran out that i bought the extended warranty.......If it gets stolen...they get my software none of my precious images...there are none on the lappy and the 2.5 inch external drives I use when traveling are not left sitting with computer...when I am done processing i have the hdds stored in the hotel safe until I need again...plus one in a small safe in my car....and I do carry a clone of the "C" drive with me also....just in case.

    When I get back home all images on the 2.5"hdds are moved thru Lightroom to the larger drives in the docks the then 2.5" drives are reformatted for the next trip.....

    .I am not worried about a mishap nor do i dwell on the possibility of a mishap as thoughts are energy and simply constantly dwelling on something like this can cause it to actually happen.......if a nuclear attack happens....well it won't matter anyway will it.

    This discussion might be more fruitful to be discussing backing up ones images rather than laptop workstation vs desktop workstation......BUT THAT HAS BEEN DONE MORE THAN ONCE ON HERE...with those that love the cloud options and those like me that just keep buying hdd's......nothing is permanent...hdd's will crash...the key is to have back ups of everything.....................
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

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    Quincy TQuincy T Registered Users Posts: 1,090 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Since this thread has honestly moved mostly to backup talk:

    Camera: I used to keep important images on the CF card, as long as I didn't need the extra space. Lately, though, I've been downloading the images ASAP, so this doesn't happen anymore as much.
    1st backup: MBP for last two months work (I'm not a working pro, but I take the relatively small number of images I do make seriously)
    2nd backup: 500 GB last six months, as well as current work
    3rd backup: 1 TB all work, as well as current work

    I'm still trying to nail down exactly how I like to backup, but for the most part, I delete files that are both not good quality images and have no real significance, i.e. some guy's hand in front of my lens at a 4th of July party...that will never mean anything. I spend a great deal of time sorting through, deleting, and using my space as efficiently as possible.
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    lifeinfocuslifeinfocus Registered Users Posts: 1,461 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Laptop vs Desktop
    I use both and its usage depends on location, convenience and comfort.

    I have an older laptop that I upgraded to max ram, larger HD, and upgraded OS. Still works well and I am sure if it had a current processor it would handle most any photo processing software. Get an external calibrated monitor for serious processing and external drives for backup and you got a good solution.

    One of the sites http://www.hardware-revolution.com/ I like for researching computer needs.

    I prefer to sit in front of a big screen and a multiple internal hard drive desktop/workstation that is totally dedicated to image processing. No extra software except for online access. The only thing I have not found is a keyboard with a finger pad - I can move a mouse pointer faster and precisely than with a mouse. I built the machine about six months ago and I believe I got the exact components I wanted. Three internal hard drives and one external drive. One drive for OS and software, one fast drive for primary processing, another internal for immediate fast backup and external drives for long term backup.

    Phil
    http://www.PhilsImaging.com
    "You don't take a photograph, you make it." ~Ansel Adams
    Phil
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    ZBlackZBlack Registered Users Posts: 337 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    I'm in the boat that a laptop *can* do everything, and pretty much just as well as a desktop. Sure the harddrive thing isn't as convenient being sure to carry around multiple externals everywhere, but they are so small these days that it's really no different than throwing in an extra usb cable.

    Personally, I far prefer my desktop to my laptop for everything. I love bigger screens, higher resolutions and in my case, it's a far beefier system. I do a fair bit of gaming so I keep it up to date with the latest and greatest cpu/ram, but the video card is always just a middle ranged $200-$250 card. I rarely use my laptop for editing or anything. I've used it for tethered shooting a handful of times, but I always end up transferring those images back to my desktop. I'm just at home with a bigger machine.

    I am just am amateur though so I don't constantly have clients where I am needing to shoot and throw on a computer right away. If that was the case, I would certainly be investing in a better laptop and workflow scenario which would cost a fair amount of money absolutely. I've never had a harddrive fail on me to where I wasn't able to pull data off I needed. I have had multiple drives fail on me, but being prepared and knowing when it's about to happen can go a long ways to making things go smoothly when migrating to a new one. There are usually signs that something isn't quite right, and when those begin to happen, it's time to make a change.

    As for backup goes, I have an internal working drive that everything goes to and sits on, then twice a day it backs up to an external drive sitting on my desk, and gets uploaded into the cloud at the same time via CrashPlan. With Crashplan, I can have it on both computers at the same time, and I do have 1 portable harddrive I keep in my laptop bag. It's used for general backup, not just photo's.


    The only thing I have not found is a keyboard with a finger pad - I can move a mouse pointer faster and precisely than with a mouse.

    There are quite a few out there with built in touch/trackpads. I honestly don't have any personal experience with them though. I've considered picking one up before, but never did.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Description=wireless%20keyboard%20with%20touchpad&Submit=ENE
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    lifeinfocuslifeinfocus Registered Users Posts: 1,461 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    ZBlack wrote: »
    There are quite a few out there with built in touch/trackpads. I honestly don't have any personal experience with them though. I've considered picking one up before, but never did.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Description=wireless%20keyboard%20with%20touchpad&Submit=ENE

    Thank for the link. I bought most of my components from Newegg. Some good choices there. My requirements include keyboard response like Lenovo laptop (touch typist) with touchpad in the middle below the keys. Tough to find.

    Phil
    http://www.PhilsImaging.com
    "You don't take a photograph, you make it." ~Ansel Adams
    Phil
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Ok, this was never meant to be “laptop vs desktop” argument. My original point was to make people starting out think about their computer needs just as much as their camera needs. My personal experience is that many newbies don’t think about the computer. They go out and buy a $2000 camera thinking this will immediately make them a great photographer and never contemplate what happens to the images after they take them.
    In that original message I did say that some can and will justify the use of a laptop as a SOLE device, but MOST people should consider a desktop to grow into. Laptops were never designed to be sole workstations. I still stand by this, but again, I do understand that depending on what you do, your laptop may be your main computer and could be used as a SOLE computer if you know what you’re doing. If you’re a pro photographer constantly on the go, spending $4000 on a high end laptop is the way to go for you, but you already understand that. A newbie with only a $500 laptop probably doesn’t. Enough said.
    Much of my original concern is that many newbies don’t even consider any type of backup method, thus their images are only on the laptop bouncing around in a trunk or knapsack, etc. Please understand that I’m trying to discuss a broad range of user, so a pro may consider my comments ridiculous while a newbie is saying, “I didn’t think of that.”.
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    For my personal needs, a laptop would never work as a primary computer, thus it’s really only used to empty cards and burn optical copies when traveling. For this reason a MacBook Air would be a waste for me since it doesn’t have an optical drive. (Most already know this, but many newbies don’t.) Yes the MBA is a sleek machine, but you must make sacrifices to get this sleekness. If you’re a PC user there are many very inexpensive laptops out there ($<500) that seem attractive, but will fall short if your business grows quickly.
    Personally, I’m in the growing mode. I’ve been a photographer for 40+ years, but never as a primary profession. I also have used Mac’s since ’87 so I have a good deal of computer related experience. Between the two, I have seen countless ways of loosing data/photos. I currently shoot approximately 30-40,000 images a year and am working to increase my topic range, thus increasing the images. I have what I feel is a decent backup regime, but due to a recent disaster, am considering making it better, thus I am interested in hearing from others on how they are handling things.
    I am a newbie in the sense that I’ve only been selling images on SmugMug for only the last year, but have been selling dvds, calenders, etc, for many years. I’m on a limited budget, but try to think ahead and plan and buy accordingly, saving for the best related camera and computer equipment, etc. This year a good deal of my profits went to camera accessories, repairs, and marketing tools. Next year I would like to concentrate on backup equipment, specifically some type of hot swappable array.
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    JCJC Registered Users Posts: 768 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    Laptops were and never will be designed as a main workstation. With that said, many can and will justify the use of a laptop as a sole computer based on limited use. I will add that while today's laptops have made leaps in speed and capacity, their basic physical restrictions (slow internal plumbing, limited processors, limited ram, limited drives, etc) make them a poor investment for a sole photography computer if you plan is to go pro (or even semi-pro).

    WHY? What capability do you need that a laptop can't supply? Higher bus speed? More Ram? > Dual processors? Higher disk drive capacity?


    Rufus280 wrote: »
    Laptops were never designed to be sole workstations. I still stand by this, but again, I do understand that depending on what you do, your laptop may be your main computer and could be used as a SOLE computer if you know what you’re doing. If you’re a pro photographer constantly on the go, spending $4000 on a high end laptop is the way to go for you, but you already understand that. A newbie with only a $500 laptop probably doesn’t....
    Much of my original concern is that many newbies don’t even consider any type of backup method, thus their images are only on the laptop bouncing around in a trunk or knapsack, etc. ”.

    Laptops are designed as workstations today, if your argument is that the same components are cheaper in a desktop setup, that's different, but that's not how you started out this topic. The backup point is valid regardless of whether you are talking about laptops or desktops and is worth reiterating to anybody.

    Rufus280 wrote: »
    <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Arial; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} @font-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> For my personal needs, a laptop would never work as a primary computer, thus it’s really only used to empty cards and burn optical copies when traveling. For this reason a MacBook Air would be a waste for me since it doesn’t have an optical drive.

    Again, WHY? what capability do you need that can only be supplied by a desktop? This kind of argument really needs concrete statements. What capability do you need? What are those personal needs, other than an optical drive? Macbook Air's don't really represent Laptops in general, anymore than a bare bones terminal represents all desktops, if you need an optical drive, you buy a laptop with an optical drive, same as a desktop.
    Yeah, if you recognize the avatar, new user name.
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Laptop vs Desktop (Again?)
    Kolibri,
    As stated, this was not meant to be a "laptop vs desktop" pissing contest, but you once again are making it that. Your latching on to this single subject like a Pitbull on a bone. If you want details, and want to discuss this subject ONLY, then I would suggest opening a new thread.
    As also stated, it's GENERALLY about the use of computers with photography, with backup as a secondary topic, while trying to keep the discussion broad enough to be useful to both newbies as well as pros. Input from you on this would be greatly appreciated.
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    To try to get back to my original intended subject...

    Using someone I know as an example, she approached me to discuss buying her first DSLR. She wanted specifics on the normal stuff (what brand, what model, what lenses, etc). My normal answer is that there is Canon and Nikon. Both names speak for themselves... you must decide for yourself based on personal preference and price range. I also usually advise not to "blow the budget" by buying an expensive camera that is way over their head.
    The next thing I always ask is what are you going to use for a computer, and in almost all cases, I get an immediate confused look signifying, "I haven't thought of that." Inevitably the answer is usually something like "My son has a laptop I can use.", or something similar.
    This was pretty much the same in the original thread. My main point is that most people starting out never think about the computer up front. Usually relying on a 3yr old <$500 laptop used by 3 people in the family. In most cases, this single fact alone will dictate disaster at some point.
    I would love it if we could get off the "laptop vs desktop" topic and stay more generally on "Photography and Computers".
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Let me step in here RUFUS................... You started this thread off with one good point. When getting involved with digital photography one should consider the computer that will process and store the images.

    You began with: This thread is to discuss the use of computers in the realm of photography. I've created it mainly to continue a discussion started in another unrelated thread.

    My original comment suggested that laptops should not be considered a main workstation (sole computer) and only be used for a remote terminal.

    Sounds like a desktop versus laptop discussion to me.

    You or I have no standing to tell anyone to get off a thread and start their own. Especially the new guy with 20 whole posts. Threads go where they go.

    When entering a new bar one might be wise to keep a low profile and get the lay of the land before spouting off. :D

    Oh, and for the record the main topic here is photography. Have you got a website? Would love to see some of your work.

    Sam
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    In regards to backup....

    I use a MacPro as my main computer. It has 3ea 1TB drives. The first drive runs the OS and apps, the second the active photo libraries, and the 3rd the raw images right from the camera.
    I usually regularly backup the raw images to optical media (DVD-R, BD-R, BD-R DL), depending on size and subject matter, but not as often as I should. The main active library is usually manually backed up to the 3rd drive during the season when images are being added regularly. At the end of the season, libraries are "closed" (no more images are added) and they are then archived to optical media. A new library is started for the next season. I am currently planning to expand topics, thus expanding my "shooting season" and image count.
    I'm looking for a more automatic means of backup and will probably add a 4th drive to do this in the immediate future as a quick fix ...but... would eventually like to make this go to some type of hot swappable drive array or NAS.
    My methods seem to work well until recently when I had a disaster that was totally my fault.... My UPS battery had failed a few weeks prior. I had started shutting the computer down nightly because of the battery issue, but continued to use it when home. One day while the main library was open we got hit with a sag. Since the UPS battery was dead, the computer immediately restarted and the result was a corrupted image library containing 60GBs of images. The previous couple of weeks were very busy where I had added several thousand images and had worked them, thus the latest backup I had on hand didn't include them, so I lost tons of work. I was able to retrieve some of the work from SmugMug thankfully, but all in all it was a costly mistake on my part due to carelessness.
    Of course the UPS battery was replaced the next day to solve that issue, but I still don't have a good automatic means of backup. As for the software, I would like something flexible in that I may go 2 weeks without shooting an image, and then add 4 events in one week. As for hardware, I would like something external, removable, portable, and expandable. I've casually looked at several raids, drobos, NAS units, but really haven't pinpointed something I like.
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    kdlanejrkdlanejr Registered Users Posts: 55 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    I honestly don't see you can separate the two. Previously you mentioned a $4000 laptop. While I'm aware that there are some very high end laptops to be had, I don't know of any that offer more than 2 HDD's and of the those that do, usually you are giving up an optical drive for the extra HDD. Currently for $4000 I can assemble a PC with a six-core processor (12 hyperthreaded), top end video card sufficient for video editing and more than sufficient for photo editing, GB of ram, more than one optical drive (if desired), and numerous SSD's, HDD's based on need.

    Also, the backup scenario that you keep coming back to is easily handled by multiple NAS drives. These NAS drives can be accessed from any computer on the network, wired or wireless. Gigabit ethernet is supposed to be fast, but it can't hold a candle to internal drives. I use software to automatically backup files on the NAS drives and internal drives.

    Within the last couple years laptops (PC based) have changed significantly. It's become hard to find a monitor that isn't native widescreen and only 1366x768 at that. Want more resolution? Move to a 17.3" Laptop. I like screen real estate, so that's not an issue for me, but even then, you don't always get higher resolution (1600x900 is still limiting). This doesn't mean that higher resolution laptops screens are not available. There are still a few companies that offer them, along with custom builds and of course, custom pricing.

    I have an older Dell XPS 15.6 inch laptop that has a screen with a native resolution of 1920 x 1200. I like that resolution because is matches my 24" desktop monitors resolution. Unfortunately, even though it has a fast (for its time) processor and maximum ram, it's just not as fast with todays software as a basic i3 processor powered laptop.

    When it comes to backup, don't overlook your processing software. Do you have all your Discs and installation programs ready to go? Do you have a recent clone of your hard drive so you can just swap hard drives if you have a failure? Do you carry a large flash drive or two with all your software applications install files ready to install if the need arises? Do you update your flash drives when you add additional software to your system?

    All too often when discussing backups, the conversation limits itself to "DATA". Data means different things to different professions, but the bottom line is that data is useless without the application to process it. How many applications, plug-ins, etc. do you need to back up so you're ready to go again with a minimum of downtime?
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    Rufus280Rufus280 Registered Users Posts: 31 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Sam wrote: »
    Let me step in here RUFUS................... You started this thread off with one good point. When getting involved with digital photography one should consider the computer that will process and store the images.

    You began with: This thread is to discuss the use of computers in the realm of photography. I've created it mainly to continue a discussion started in another unrelated thread.

    My original comment suggested that laptops should not be considered a main workstation (sole computer) and only be used for a remote terminal.

    Sounds like a desktop versus laptop discussion to me.

    You or I have no standing to tell anyone to get off a thread and start their own. Especially the new guy with 20 whole posts. Threads go where they go.

    When entering a new bar one might be wise to keep a low profile and get the lay of the land before spouting off. :D

    Oh, and for the record the main topic here is photography. Have you got a website? Would love to see some of your work.

    Sam

    Sam, to a certain extent you are correct. But as I've said now numerous times, the original intent of my thread was not a "laptop vs desktop" thread, but it keeps going in that direction. My original point in the original thread was that people should not plan to use just any old computer laying around (in that case a 2nd hand laptop). This was immediately jumped on specifically as a fight, which was not the case. In an effort to be fair to the others and not edit out anything, when I then started this thread I merely brought over the original comments that seem to blossom in the original thread, BUT WAS NOT MY ORIGINAL INTENT. I then continued to try to defend my original statement, trying to keep my replies general in nature and not going into a ton of details such as bus speeds, etc, because it is NOT MY ORIGINAL INTENT of this thread.
    Kolibri's very specific questions in the original thread are what made me split the thread, and then once again it gets very specific which is what I'm TRYING TO AVOID since it's NOT MY ORIGINAL INTENT.
    I have also said numerous times now, even going back to the original thread, that "some can and will justify the use of a laptop as a sole device". The thread has become useless with the loss of understanding. I've typed paragraph after paragraph only for many to grab hold of a single sentence.
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    kdlanejrkdlanejr Registered Users Posts: 55 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    The one thing it all has in common, whether it desktop vs laptop (where you don't want it to be) or photo processing workflow and backup (where it seems like you want it to be), is that when someone new to photography thinks about buying a camera, they usually don't think about the camera support system.

    It's like that for lots of different hobbies and recreational activities. Even "Professionals" taking on new ventures often seek help from associates only after they run into issues, when you would think they would talk to associates already using the wheel instead of trying to re-invent it themselves.
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    JCJC Registered Users Posts: 768 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    Rufus280 wrote: »
    . My original point in the original thread was that people should not plan to use just any old computer laying around (in that case a 2nd hand laptop). ....
    I have also said numerous times now, even going back to the original thread, that "some can and will justify the use of a laptop as a sole device". The thread has become useless with the loss of understanding. I've typed paragraph after paragraph only for many to grab hold of a single sentence.

    You left off the ending of your quote where you continued onto say that while people would justify laptops 'based on limited use" that they weren't actually sufficient.

    I'm kind of done with this thread, but since part of your original intent was stated as looking out for new photographers, personally, i think the set up you describe in your posts above, 3TB in computer, and your back up system, would be way over kill for the type of person new to digital photography that you introduce in a couple of your posts. I can imagine some of them reading this thread and going 'whoaa-- I can't deal with that', and thinking that this isn't a step they want to make

    For someone just upgrading from a point and shoot, or from a film camera, 250 to 500 GB in computer, plus a back up drive is totally fine unless they have vast amounts of data from elsewhere stored on their computer from gaming or music or videos or whatever. They don't need a super high end media center anymore than they need to start off with a flagship camera. People should (IMHO) start with the basics, getting stuff right in camera before going crazy with fixing everything in RAW, learning how to be picky with their shots and what they save instead of shooting a million shots each time out because they have the space to download them. A terabyte of space isn't going to help anyone unless they've decided on a database structure they want to use. You don't need the highest end processors for simple image editing and database management.

    On my 'desktop replacement' 64 bit laptop I've got 4 processors, 8 Gigs of RAM, and two 500 GB harddrives. It's rare that I come anywhere close to maxing out the processors, my command line program to stack 800 images eats a lot, right now firefox has a glitch that is maxing out the CPU, but that's an OS thing, and running a big GIS project with projection on the fly stresses the CPUs, but that's not photography related. Some filters in GIMP take a little bit to apply, maybe HUGIN doesn't work as fast as if I had upgraded CPU's, but they don't take all day, either. My RAW files are eating up the hard drive space pretty quickly, (800 raw images for one image stack....) but it would take a new photographer a while to get up to 500 GB.

    For new photographers I'd say 'hey start with whatever you've got', and if that's a laptop, then I'd say great. For laptop or for desktop, in addition to a back up drive, or two, I'd suggest adding on an external monitor and a USB or optical mouse (and maybe a keyboard if you have large hands), but you'd also need those for a desktop. Dual monitors are cheaper than one super large monitor (at least last time I was shopping) and lets you view your database and your editing at the same time.

    Going beyond these basic specs would require talking about exactly what kind of processing ability people need, ie. specifics.

    Laptop monitors are pretty good these days by themselves, and seriously, by the time a new digital photographer gets into precise color profiles, I think they'd be tech enough to be able to scope out a good system.
    Yeah, if you recognize the avatar, new user name.
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    kolibri wrote: »

    For new photographers I'd say 'hey start with whatever you've got', and if that's a laptop, then I'd say great.
    clap.gif


    I concur heartily!

    Most times when folks (newbies) come here to dgrin the idea is to aid them in getting where-ever it is they'd like to get. And if they'd like to get started AND have a question about computer needs, then folks can chime in as to what 'they' think works or doesn't and lay a bit of justification on it as well.

    RUFUS, no matter what your intent was, it came across as an opinion. An opinion that obviously some share and many do not.
    tom wise
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    angevin1 wrote: »
    <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/clap.gif&quot; border="0" alt="" >


    I concur heartily!

    Most times when folks (newbies) come here to dgrin the idea is to aid them in getting where-ever it is they'd like to get. And if they'd like to get started AND have a question about computer needs, then folks can chime in as to what 'they' think works or doesn't and lay a bit of justification on it as well.

    RUFUS, no matter what your intent was, it came across as an opinion. An opinion that obviously some share and many do not.

    Additionally I went over and read the thread that was where your Laptop< desktop thing came into being. You gave a good opinion there. Then another fella did, and he didn't step on toes to do so. But you chose to take a defensive approach about your original statement. I like to say there's more than one way to make potato salad. Respecting others opinions as you'd like yours respected is a simple thing.
    tom wise
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    pickerbwpickerbw Registered Users Posts: 78 Big grins
    edited August 19, 2012
    angevin1 wrote: »
    I like to say there's more than one way to make potato salad.

    But only one right way... And everyone knows that's with mustard... rolleyes1.gif
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2012
    pickerbw wrote: »
    But only one right way... And everyone knows that's with mustard... rolleyes1.gif


    Ha. You picked out the important part of my dribble!thumb.gif
    tom wise
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    divamumdivamum Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2012
    people should not plan to use just any old computer laying around (in that case a 2nd hand laptop)

    I have to disagree here. While I would LOVE a shiny, new, high-end, high-speed PC, I have done what I'd like to think is decent professional work edited first on an OOOOLLLLDDD laptop (which was what I happened to have when I started shooting), and subsesquently a pretty middle-of-the-road consumer laptop. It certainly slows me down - literally, since it doesn't have the computing power to whizz through memory- and processor-intensive commands - but it is entirely viable. Perfect? No, but absolutely useable.

    Why a laptop?

    - it's what I had and at the time there was no way I could buy a dedicated machine
    - it's what I was using while my husband was working at our desktop.
    - I can use it anywhere
    - don't have space for another desktop system
    - affordable
    - does what I need
    - easily calibrated with an inexpensive external device (in my case a Huey)

    I also check client pictures on other machines (our desktop, both phones, machines elsewhere etc etc) when I have the chance just in case there is something I've missed. By and large, however, I find I've edited just about right since I know my machine and what my results look like in print and on other screens and adjust accordingly.

    While yes, a good desktop system is going to be a very nice improvement with lots of speed and reliability enhancements, working on a laptop is neither impossible nor (frankly) "undesirable". It's just different, in the same way that you can still get from point A>B in an 25 year old Ford instead of a snazzy new hybrid SUV.

    Btw, I looked at this thread because I'm currently shopping for a new machine. I had expected to jump up to a more powerful 17" laptop, but am actually currently eyeing some of the consumer all-in-one machines. Why? I have a VERY small desk to work at - the smaller form factor will greatly improve its useability for me rather than the opposite and the jump in power from a 2008 32bit machine to a 201264bit machine will be so significant that I probably won't miss the extra power an even-higher-level spec would give me. Still considering what to do, but sometimes it's a series of compromises between speed, space and cost.

    Backup: CRASHPLAN!! It saved my behind earlier this year when I had to do an OS re-install; I have important data backed up on external drives as well, but reinstalling from Crashplan was actually way easier (and covered some items I hadn't thought to back up manually). It's a great way to seamlessly have an off-site backup and is very affordable. Colour me a fan.
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