Getting pro experience but no interest in being a pro
Ferguson
Registered Users Posts: 1,345 Major grins
I work full time in a non-photographic field, and have no intent to ever make a penny doing photography.
I am a serious amateur with good gear and a fair amount of experience, but what I lack is real feedback, the kind you get as a working pro from either customers or better still your boss. Especially contemporaneous feedback such as "no, go stand over there" or "what do you think you are doing".
I've read numerous postings about wedding second shooters (and why they are too much trouble for most pros to accept "want to learn" volunteers), but am wondering what alternatives you suggest.
I would be very happy to assist someone at sports or other events (preferably NOT weddings, better anything event oriented like sports), and retain no rights and expect no pay, just to gain experience. And safe experience, as I won't show up the following month after their business.
I've written to local newspapers, but never had a message returned at all. Though I did have a magazine cover once, from someone who saw a shot, so they can't be all bad.
I'm even willing to pay to get such training (though swapping effort for training is much more appealing).
Is it a viable path? How would one start if so?
Or am I off the wall for wanting such an approach.
PS. If someone has time and cares to look to judge whether I have the skills to even consider helping a pro, here are recent events shot for fun: here. I welcome honest opinions even if just "keep practicing, no one wants that in their business".
I am a serious amateur with good gear and a fair amount of experience, but what I lack is real feedback, the kind you get as a working pro from either customers or better still your boss. Especially contemporaneous feedback such as "no, go stand over there" or "what do you think you are doing".
I've read numerous postings about wedding second shooters (and why they are too much trouble for most pros to accept "want to learn" volunteers), but am wondering what alternatives you suggest.
I would be very happy to assist someone at sports or other events (preferably NOT weddings, better anything event oriented like sports), and retain no rights and expect no pay, just to gain experience. And safe experience, as I won't show up the following month after their business.
I've written to local newspapers, but never had a message returned at all. Though I did have a magazine cover once, from someone who saw a shot, so they can't be all bad.
I'm even willing to pay to get such training (though swapping effort for training is much more appealing).
Is it a viable path? How would one start if so?
Or am I off the wall for wanting such an approach.
PS. If someone has time and cares to look to judge whether I have the skills to even consider helping a pro, here are recent events shot for fun: here. I welcome honest opinions even if just "keep practicing, no one wants that in their business".
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Just curious, if your goal isn't to earn money with your photography, why would you need training in becoming a wedding or event photographer?
What exactly is your goal?
If you are unable to find someone that will let you tag along with them, you might want to look into some photography workshops. There are so many workshops/seminars etc out there run by professionals- there is one for every level from amateur to pro in every price range.
You can start by googling 'wedding photo workshops' and see what comes up. There may even be workshops listed on D grin in one of the other forums.
Go to your library and look through some of the photography magazines- they all have ads for workshops.
Good luck!
I didn't look at all your galleries, but from the few I peeked at I noticed that the backgrounds of your sports photos ( I looked at baseball and volleyball) were VERY cluttered and distracting.
For cleaner photos with more impact you might want to use a larger aperture to blur out the background and isolate the subject of your photos .
Before trying to apprentice with someone, you might even benefit from a basic photography class at a local junior college , or find a local camera club where you can learn some of the basics from more seasoned photographers.
One of the exciting things about photography is that there is always something new to learn and master!
Really that simple - to get better. Why do something "Just OK"?
I don't know if I'm unable so much as looking for whether it is even appropriate to ask. Would someone WANT an unpaid amateur along in return for more images or another angle?
Workshops - I've looked, very little around in my area. I've done a few classes on portraiture, but so many of the workshops in the area are more of the "point the camera with the lens facing away from you" type. And a lot (e.g. the sportshooters workshops) are only for "working pros". But I'll keep looking. Thanks for the info.
Thank you. Baseball was shooting wide open on a 200-400/F4. Not quite ready to invest in something like a 400/F2.8 that might offer more. Volleyball, point well taken, I did stop down a few stops to stand a better chance of ensuring the action was in focus; practice needed. Thank you.
I appreciate the feedback. I had hoped I was not quite that bad that I needed a beginner class, but that's the kind of feedback I was looking for.
Right, but unless you want to be hired out as a wedding photographer, what is the point of getting better at wedding photography?
I would think not- for one thing there is the extra liability of letting someone without a known track record tag along.
ALso, the wedding photographer is getting paid to shoot the wedding- he is not going to have the time to be teaching you what to do and where to stand in addition to doing his job which is to get the best photos possible for his wedding client.
Your best bet here is to network through local photographic circles- get to know some of the photographers personally- then at least they would know you and what you are capable of.
OR, get yourself invited to a lot of family and friends' weddings and QUIETLY and UNOBTRUSIVELY watch how the wedding photographer works.
You might have to travel to some of the better workshops- but if it's really important to you, it would be worth the time and expense.
How about working for more than one "Pro" and a few well healed Amateurs too?
You can do that right here in Dgrin and have plenty of folks and their opinions look at your photos and help you figure out how to improve. Bonus is, you won't get stuck listening to one person's opinion. All you need do is post photos in the differing forums (People, or Weddings, or Sports, or even technique, etc) and ask for feedback. It also helps to do as you did here and let folks know what your intentions are and how they can help you help yourself.
That's what I am really asking. Thanks.
Haha, I didn't mean it in that way!! It would be a good overview and perhaps review for you- also might help with networking.
For example, in your shots of the guys in the little racecars, the shots are all very static, there is no sense of movement.
There are techniques that you can learn which will show action and movement in those photos such as panning with the car to blur the background or shooting at a slower shutter speed to blur the car.
I think if you took a basic or intermediate photo course at a local school or adult ed or something you would learn about a lot of the techniques used in sports and everyday photography that would help you make photos with impact.
Full time professionals can often use assistants and like to "pay-it-forward" but I don't think there are many out there that want to help train someone so willing to give away work for free.
I don't want to turn this into a debate or say you're destroying the industry. That's not what I'm saying. But, if I'm a wedding pro averaging $3200 per wedding - why exactly would I want to help you get better so you can do it for free if someone asks you nicely?
I think you read a lot into this that wasn't written. In fact I also said:
>>>> And safe experience, as I won't show up the following month after their business.
First, as I did clearly say I am not interested in weddings.
But more importantly and maybe not made clear -- I am sensitive to the prevailing feeling that amateurs undercut the value of pro work. I do not completely agree with it, but am sensitive, and I have never knowingly done so. If there's a pro working the event, I may still shoot (if there are no logistical issues), but I will certainly not offer my work as an alternative to that pro.
As a simple example, at a recent rodeo, a working pro there was kind enough to help educate me on what was happening. She did not express concern, but we swapped contact info and I made sure afterwards to let her know that I had not shared my shots with the event organizers, and even wrote her to offer the shots and permission to use them free of charge if they filled any gaps in her needs. She seemed quite competent and I suspect had no interest in my amateur work, but I made sure not to even pose a hint of a threat.
Just because someone wants to do this as a hobby and do it well does not mean they are out for your business, in fact even more so in this case, as I'm not trying to gain skills to get into the business, but for the sake of being a better photographer.
And I bet 95% of the "events" out there have no working pro interested in them - beach volleyball for example, at the local club events I am usually the only one there with anything other than a cell phone. And most college events I have attended are also without anyone that at least appears to be working it for money. If one of those participants or coaches thanks me afterwards, it's gravy on a pleasant experience.
The only wedding I provided something from was a wedding book I did for my god daughter -- months after the pro had done whatever he was going to do.
Don't assume everyone with a camera is out for your job.
But you may be right -- the rather visceral reaction that (some? many? most?) pros have for someone not trying to make money may make it impossible to work out a deal to trade effort for knowledge.
Not pulling this stuff out of thin air.
Actually, in your opening post, you mentioned doing weddings twice, and clearly said you PREFERRED weddings!
And you DO offer the photos in your galleries for free, even the ones in the wedding gallery where you mentioned there was also a 'real' photographer there.
FINALLY I understand why everyone said Weddings. Mea culpa, that was a typo (now edited). It mean preferably NOT weddings (and if you read the rest of the sentence it makes more sense). Absolutely, thanks for clarity, I understand better now. My fault. I am sorry for the confusion and now understand why "Blaker" kept bringing up weddings. All the difference a small word makes.
I mentioned weddings only because most internet discussions of learning by assisting a pro always revolve around weddings. Sorry.
Yes. One my niece (and to my knowledge no one from the wedding party even knows it is there unless my son told them, and not one mentioned it), and one my God Daughter (who did know, as did both families, and I did a wedding book of candids, long after the wedding but yes -- blame me for that one if you like, is it possible someone took a candid and failed to buy one from the pro? Possibly. Especially since he left about 2 hours before the reception ended, and wasn't at the rehearsal dinner at all, or the party before or after for family. You'll also notice I stayed entirely away from the formal shots, and away from the ceremony shots in that one; I was getting friends and family not competing. I talked to him there, he was very friendly and never once expressed concern.).
But weddings are just not that interesting to me, if for no other reason than I have to dress up.
Sorry for the confusion.
Well now everything makes a lot more sense!!!! I just couldn't wrap my head around someone wanting to learn how to do weddings but had no intention of ever working at one!!
Anyway, I do hope you think about some of the other suggestions- because I really think you will be able to find what you are looking for if you do. Sometimes the most fruitful path is not the straight line, but meanders a bit!
Yes, it's amazing how many words one can use, in the same language, and never communicate.
Thank you for the patience and advice.
But I gather you would still feel no pro working (say) sports would want someone tagging along and helping in a learn-in-return-for-effort mode ?
I know a lot of pro's who would be happy to mentor a student who is learning the business, but realistically I doubt that you will find a pro who will spend all that time and effort to mentor someone who is just doing this for the fun of it.
Learn the basics of the photo techniques by reading every book you can find, finding some videos on the subject, taking classes/workshops, joining a camera club or meet-up group.
Then go to local sports events and practice your techniques. If there are pros there, watch where they shoot from, note the equipment they are using, see how they interact with their subjects.
Shooting little league or high school sports isn't really much different from shooting pro sports- the techniques and equipment are basically the same. It's a good way to practice and get experience, and as someone said upthread, post your photos to one of the forums here and people will be happy to critique and give you advice. It's a great way to learn.
Now, working with another hobbyist that runs a side business making $5,000 a year is a definite possibility. You can learn a lot about how to shoot sports from them and they're not as worried about you "clogging up the sidelines" or "eroding the industry". However, there still has to be something in it for them. They don't need someone to carry gear per se.
Thank you.
Did few, saw they were a waste of time and never bothered again. And that was well before the days of internet and the masses of info on the web that's available now.
I have a mate that is a legend shooter that also has no intention of doing it for paid work. He makes too much damn mney in his own business to have anyinterest in pro work. He's certainly asked me questions and asked for pointers but he's never been with me on a job or for training purposes and I'd have no problem sending out to cover anything I would, weddings included.
He has learnt by asking question, reading on the net and practice. Lots of practice.
I think unless your intention is to never share or give away any of your pics, most shooters will see you as a potential under tow to their business. Clearly that is not what your ambition is but it's not hard to do it inadvertently and in any case, I can't see many people who don't know you taking the time to asess what your intentions really are. Easier to say no. I would as well. Takes me all my time not to fall over people as it is. I may be a big tall heavy lump but when I'm working I move a lot faster than a lot of people can anticipate or get out the way in time.
I don't think you need anyone to show you anything at all. Do your own research on what you want to know and practice it and you'll grow as a shooter naturally if you have the interest.