Thank you, Ryan - and some thoughts about critiques
bdcolen
Registered Users Posts: 3,804 Major grins
+ This is my favorite one. The look on the mans face is just priceless. I know that feeling. That's the look of a man wore down by a high-energy little girl. The glasses on the tip of the nose totally sell it. He seems completely disheveled.
+ Enough details in the environment left to help put it in a place, but not distracting at all from the main focus.
- Agree that a tad more sharpness on the girl would help, but technically I'm sure that would have been a challenge.
- I think this is a real nit, but is there any more detail left in the little girl's shirt in that bright spot?
Hurray. I am done! I commented on all your images. I really hope it was meaningful rather than useless drivel. I hope you'll post lots and lots more.
Thanks for the otherworldly effort, Ryan. :clap:clap
Now to respond - and really respond to the overall critique:
As far as I am concerned, the most valuable part of this critique is the first line - THAT tells me what you see in the photo and what you take away from it. Though I am somewhat surprised that you didn't see anything in the girl's expression, or it's relationship to the adult's expression. :wink
As to the rest, and this is not meant as "criticism," the "technical" comments strike me as CCC - "camera club critique;" wandering through the weeds. For me, the questions I have about any photo are "does it interest me?" "Does it tell me something?" "Does it move me in some way?" "How and why does it do the things it does?" "If it doesn't do those things, why doesn't it." Yes, then there are are technical aspects, but 89.7635 times out of 100 those are irrelevant. Yes, composition is important, because composition and how it grabs your eye is connected to the rest of the questions.
If people aren't sure what I'm getting at, go to the library and look at - or purchase - "Henri-Cartier Bresson: The Modern Century," which is what amounts to a greatly extended catalog of the retrospective that opened at the MOMA a couple of years ago. If you look at Cartier-Bresson's work from the 30s and 40s, you will see that the prints are really, really terrible by today's standards; they are flat, and dull, leaving one wondering whether he couldn't expose properly, or print. By CCC standards, the work is crap. But in fact, the work is sublime; it sets the bar for the rest of us. The composition is otherworldly; HCB's "eye" may have been the best of all time. Screw the quality of the prints - look at the photograph. :rofl Similarly, look at a collection of the work of Eugene Smith, whose work I admire even more than that of HCB. His prints are shockingly good - but by CCC standards, not so much. White spots? Lots of them. Black blacks that swallow detail? Lots of them. But that's what he was going for; it's what made the images what they were.
I guess what I'm saying is that we are better off concentrating on the IMAGE, the PICTURE, than we are on the technical details.
Again, Ryan, thanks for taking the time and making the effort to comment. I really appreciate it. Really. :wave:wave
bd@bdcolenphoto.com
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
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Comments
For me personally, I meet weekly with a local photographer who has 40 years experience in photojournalism. That's when I really learn. Places like dgrin, for me, work as sort of benchmarks. Sometimes they help, mostly not. I get the most "bang for my buck" when I'm out in the field shooting with an experienced photographer, then circle back on a critique session. When I can compare images of the same subject between he and I, it makes me realize just how long the road is. It defines what "good" means to me.
Thanks for the response BD.
Website | Galleries | Utah PJs
But unfortunately, most people on lists such as this only want to hear "Wow! What a shatteringly awesome photo of two chunky ladies having lunch together at a sidewalk cafe. I've rarely seen such a stupendous street photo." ;-)
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
I'm with you wrt learning and benchmarking. Nothing replaces having a mentor with a ton of experience to work with, face to face even better. Places like this can be good for getting a sense how others with a variety of viewpoints and experience levels might respond to your work. But if it's too far out of alignment with their preferred styles or too far ahead or behind their experience levels, the actual commentary itself can be spotty. DGrin isn't social networking. But it is an intermediate step in testing out images, skills and concepts before taking them into real life professional documentary, photojournalism or street photography communities.
Of course, the occasional joke is always welcome as well.
+1
Translation: There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to — The Outer Limits.
I hope, in all your Moderator Omniscience, that you meant to so narrowly define only the Hurt Locker that is the Documentary Forum. Fortunately, the broader Dgrin community has formed itself around a more inclusive and diverse model. This definition is from the landing page of Dgin and sounds, in fact, a lot like social networking:
Welcome to the Dgrin Galleries. Dgrin is the place to go to discuss photography, get gear info, learn new techniques, share your work, and more. It's a community of photographers, amateur and professional, who share their love of photography.
A "real life" community for all who wish to participate - no Hair Shirt required.
Much better!
Please consider this post - at B.D.'s invitation - to be a challenge to the status quo rather than just a b*tch slap - you know, the preferred form of expression here.
Where's Jimmy Olson when you need him?
Lensmole
http://www.lensmolephotography.com/
Eric, I wish you'd explain why you're here, and why you are taking the tack you are taking. I've looked at your website, and while you have beautiful images, you have virtually none that in any way relate to the subject of this forum, or the kind of work that's posted on it. You certainly are welcome here, if you are here to contribute to the forum. But if you are simply here to do some trolling, why are you surprised at the response you've gotten?
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
I came here to force myself to take pictures of people, I didn't do anything that related to the previous title of the forum.
The forum now is getting too diverse in their postings for my taste. Add to that, a lack of a sense of humor makes this place unfun.
Now that I have some mileage with people shots, I feel confident in including them in images for sale.
I came here from a male dominated forum (adventure rider) run by the same management as this forum; where laughs are louder, frequent & self deprecating humor was norm.
That's not this place.
bd has changed too. When I came he was a strict adherent to interesting street (although I found some of his criticism rational tortured IMO), which was helpful too me. Now he has drunk the facebook tea and has "shared" some personal family stuff with his recent dump. I found most of it self indulgent with a few jewels.
I guess we all evolve; some inward some outward as will this community over time with new people as the old ones leave
The good news is we're keeping the lid on (I think...
The reality is that there have been very, very few serious street photographers here, even fewer real documentary photographers, and practically know photo journalists, or people doing photo journalism. But that's fine. This has been a forum for exploring those forms.
As to the perceived lack of laughs - say something funny and I'm sure we'll all laugh. :-)
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
Fair question b.d. - but you can't have it both ways - you invite me to challenge paradigms then resort to (mild) name-calling (troll) when you don't like my approach. The under-message of social censorship is dismaying.
My tack is a strong reaction to your dressing-down of MarkR earlier in the thread (he didn't like it either) - I just felt it crossed a line and I responded. Why are you surprised at the reaction you've gotten? Yes, I probably stuck my nose where it didn't belong - I do that from time-to-time and it's a probable character flaw - however, I do come from the '70's ethos of "Question Authority" - I wore the lapel pin proudly. But, having said that, I am now annoying myself (probably more than y'all) with this drama and in truth, don't like conflict, and wish to drop the matter with sincere best wishes to you. Geez, I'm certifiably passive-aggressive huh?
I'm here for the same reason as most, I love photography, and I do appreciate your expression of welcome. As you point out, I am by no-means a Street, etc. photographer - but I have a keen appreciation for the genre and have enjoyed seeing the work and process of you and other fine photographers here. I have lurked to see and learn and hope to stick my toe in ......But, I probably need to become more inured to the lack of social graces here, it does seem to go (granted, only at times) with the territory. I have noticed a tacit threshold for accepted (in-group) participation here, I think that is unlike any other area in Dgin and is a deterrent to new participation. I find the Moderator's comments often reflect that mindset.
That's enough - I've had my say - I appreciate your question b.d. and the chance to exchange.
Please go back to your regularly scheduled program.
Fair enough
Seems to me my responsibility as a serious photographer, is to bring to the viewer a technically good image that is interesting; or I'm no better photographer than a snapshot taker with an Iphone.
I don't attend seminars and webinars (3+/month) to have that level of skill.
You have mentioned on a couple of occasions "or it's just a pretty picture" (derogatorily) and that's fine, but I and many viewers like pretty pictures
You love and are proud of your family (I didn't mean to insult you in that regard); I have a family and am proud of them too. I wouldn't indulge myself and bore the forum with family shots of people living like ordinary people. This is not a reality show.
You have a good eye great skills, you just have to get out more (beyond walking your dog). Capture some of the crap that's going on nowadays.
Now remember in your response; I'm your elder, so behave...
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
If you have a definition of allocation of words to photo from a credible source (other than yourself); I'd like to see it.
That's my understanding of documentary photography on a photography website. It doesn't have to be a "project"
I recently heard a story about a woman who _loves_ birds. She rescues birds that are injured. The whole town recognizes her knowledge of birds, gained through trial and error (and lots of dead birds). She deeply loves all birds, not just the exotic ones. She saves pigeons and crows. Anyone can bring her any injured bird and she will do all she can. She stays up all night nursing the sick ones. Every dime she gets she invests in ways to help the birds she loves. She works tirelessly to preserve and protect the birds in her city. You could say her entire life is committed to birds.
The story goes that she went to the local bird watching club to ask for financial help so she could save more birds. She figured "these people probably love birds too, surely they will be willing to donate."
When the requested help never came she realized she had made a mistake. The bird watchers didn't love birds. They loved bird watching. They loved talking about birds. They loved taking pictures of birds.... but they did not _love birds_.
And thus I put the challenge to you. Do you _love_ documenting the ever changing world around you? Do you care deeply about the camera's unique ability to forever freeze a moment in time, and the quest to make that moment last forever? Do you love doing it in a way that, if ever so briefly, captures someone's attention long enough so you can show them the essence of the world you see?
OR
Do you love talking about photography? Do you love arguing about categories and semantics? Do you like explaining to people what is wrong with them? That's fine that you love that. That's cool. But if you do this at the expense of doing the above, you don't really love documentary photography. Just like the bird watchers, you don't love it. You just love talking about it.
Stop arguing about it and just go and _do_ it. This is my deepest desire. Post more pictures. Share. Think. Question. Talk. Take the "talking about talking" and "thinking about thinking" some place else, like your private diary. Instead, here, show us _YOUR WORLD_! Show us the essence of that world. Help us understand it. Teach us how you fit in. How you think. You how feel... That is the love.
If you have the love, then respect the love. If you end up with a few dead birds, learn from it. Try again. Don't let people who call you the "crazy bird lady" discourage you from your love. Don't let the lack of support of others deter you from the love. If you really love it, you aren't going to go anywhere. You're going to keep posting images. Keep telling stories. You're going to keep doing it, despite how people treat you. Despite their bad jokes. Despite their arguments. You are just going to keep going, because that is what it means to love something.
I tried the "internet forum" experiment. It does nothing for me. By that, I mean that it is the _PHOTOGRAPH_ that really matters. The stuff written under it is just sort of icing. Usually it is meaningless. A post is really a way to say "this photograph is special, everyone look!" Why? because the technology gets in the way. Every time you post you say "this is great, everyone, look!" as it pops the thread to the top of the page. It is great because it pissed you off, or caused a reaction, or made you feel special, or whatever. Whatever quality it had, it moved you to type something and hit reply. The bad stuff falls to the bottom of the ocean here as fast as a boat anchor. The more people show work, the faster the anchors will sink. You don't need to be told it stinks. You'll know - because no one will care. Your image is a dead bird. Learn from it. Try again.
I feel totally done with all rants of this nature. I really hope you don't try to read between the lines on the above. Try to capture the essence of what I am saying. I'm pleading with you... show me your world! I _LOVE_ seeing your world. I don't care if it isnt' the best. I don't care how many awards you've won. I just love birds.
Website | Galleries | Utah PJs