Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer

dbveto · October 11, 2012

I was contacted by a Team rep asking if I knew anyone so I decided to post here.

Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer, team has been in existence over 20 years. If you don't have experience shooting sports come get some, if you have some experience add this to it. Season is June to October (shooting from the sidelines)with some other opportunity's such as tryouts or player head shots. Come join a team of great individuals in a great organization.
can contact Steve at 708-378-0840the or email at sliwka@att.net

johng · October 12, 2012

Assuming "volunteer" means "unpaid" - So basically come be a slave? Give away work that a professional organization should have to pay for? It's one thing to do charity work. But, this isn't charity. If you're a web designer, are you going to come design their website for free? If you're a tax accountant are you going to volunteer to do their taxes for free? The guy serving peanuts gets paid, if you're a photographer you should get paid too.

If you're just starting out in sports photography, don't be misled into believing you progress faster by shooting a higher level of play. Nonsense. In fact, there are more restrictions. Shoot youth sports - you can get closer to the action. Again, would you sell concessions for the team for free? If they want free labor this is a bad, bad deal.

dbveto · October 12, 2012

johng wrote: »

Assuming "volunteer" means "unpaid" - So basically come be a slave? Give away work that a professional organization should have to pay for? It's one thing to do charity work. But, this isn't charity. If you're a web designer, are you going to come design their website for free? If you're a tax accountant are you going to volunteer to do their taxes for free? The guy serving peanuts gets paid, if you're a photographer you should get paid too.

If you're just starting out in sports photography, don't be misled into believing you progress faster by shooting a higher level of play. Nonsense. In fact, there are more restrictions. Shoot youth sports - you can get closer to the action. Again, would you sell concessions for the team for free? If they want free labor this is a bad, bad deal.

John
You have helped me out a lot with the comments about my photo's that I have posted(the ones I think are good enough) and I agree with what you are saying but in this your wrong (I blame myself for not explaining better). I don't know how all of the teams are run but I do know these teams do not make any money and ALL of their staff are volunteers. I will go into a bit more detail about the team I shoot for, they are listed as a nonprofit organization and any money they do make goes into scholarships and the team (new uniforms or travel expenses). This is not a money making venture I make about 200.00 a season from the sale of photos I really do it because I love the game. I shoot from the sidelines at every game (I assume the liability) when the team travels I can ride the team bus or drive myself. At the games I shoot what I want and will occasionally be asked to take other photos like player head shots or any give always like the scholarships..

zSCOTTz · October 14, 2012

I wouldnt do it either, not for free. The only time I do free is when I have nothing for that day and I see some youth football games across the street from me, I will go shoot that and I still end up making a quick 100 to 200 bucks in sales from parents after directing them to my website, along with gaining new clients for family or senior pics.

Photogbiker · October 14, 2012

As an amateur myself I can see it would be fun to shoot a pro football game from the sidelines, but have to lean towards the "they need to pay" camp on this one. If you want to donate services go to an inner city school and shoot and give the kids a print or two. They probably haven't had a shot of themselves playing, ever.

As for non-profit, there is a big difference between a not for profit charity (501(c)3 per IRS) such as United Way, a church, or a homeless shelter and a commercial venture that just doesn't make much profit or even loses money. Donating photography services to a true charity is something we all should do occasionally. A business that is for profit, just not making much money or actually losing money is a different story. There hasn't been a commercial airline in this country (except Southwest) that has made money, yet I doubt a commercial photographer would shoot their advertising for free.

Do what feels right to you and if being "paid" in the perks of watching football is enough, then have a blast. Just wanted to weigh in on the difference between a non-profit and an unprofitable business.

Post some pics, since that is what this forum is really about.

dbveto · October 15, 2012

Ok Fine you guys would not do it so why even bother posting to this?

I do volunteer for another team, I enjoy shooting the game and so far I have gotten 3 weddings(paid) 2 events (1 paid) 4 family shoots (3paid) and as far as volunteering elsewhere I am shooting for a Cancer benefit on Sunday.

I posted her because I enjoy shooting for the team I shoot and when The other team asked if I knew anyone that would shoot their games I figured I would share it here, which I now found was a mistake because instead of a thread about a team looking for a photography it has now become a thread on Why NOT to do it and maybe I am partially to blame because maybe I did not explain it well enough.

Oh and by the way if I read a thread that I am not interested in I don't post.

johng · October 15, 2012

Dennis - it's great that you enjoy working with these organizations. However, for novices that are looking to build experience, they have to be careful - there is a tremendous push by organizations to take advantage of naive people and to give "sideline access" in trade for a service those organizations usually have to pay for. The point some of us are trying to make is those new to sports shooting should not completely devalue the service they are providing. It's one thing to provide a service to a charity you believe in. And, if novices here believe in the charity of this semi-pro football team then by all means they should consider providing services to this charity.

Some of us also want to make novices aware that if they want to be paid in the future, their portfolio is not judged by the level of play they cover. In other words, having photos of a "semi-pro" football team doesn't rate higher than images of a youth or HS football team.

Generally speaking, giving away photographic services can be bad for the business of photography. Now, some people don't care and that is their choice.

So, bottom line my opinion is this: if this is a charity a person considering the offer should consider it as just work for charity - the notion that it will build their resume as a sports photographer I disagree with. That's all.

Doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong - just means we have different opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. Novices considering the offer can contemplate different opinions and form their own. That's why I posted (and am posting again). Just because you created the tread doesn't mean your opinion is the only relevant one for other people to consider.

T. Bombadil · October 15, 2012

Photogbiker wrote: »

As for non-profit, there is a big difference between a not for profit charity (501(c)3 per IRS) such as United Way, a church, or a homeless shelter and a commercial venture that just doesn't make much profit or even loses money. Donating photography services to a true charity is something we all should do occasionally. A business that is for profit, just not making much money or actually losing money is a different story. There hasn't been a commercial airline in this country (except Southwest) that has made money, yet I doubt a commercial photographer would shoot their advertising for free.

Your point about non-profit being different than unprofitable is a good one - except in this case, the OP said it is an all volunteer organization.

ASkip · October 15, 2012

Hi,
Just thought I'd chime in from the non-pro side of things... this kind of football shooting sounds really fun to me. I don't live anywhere near Chicago though. (I'm in California). But I figure more practice is always good. Seems to me some parents might want to get in some extra practice so they can take better pictures of their own kids and thus posting here seems perfectly fair.

and here I'll throw in a football picture just to make it a picture-y post. ha.

Good luck finding some help.
Anna

jmphotocraft · October 15, 2012

I tend to agree with John, and I am in a similar situation myself. I shoot my town's little league, and it makes me decent money as a side gig. Now, the little league board of directors is a group of people who put a lot of time and effort into the league all year long, probably more hours than I spend on the photo job. The board is all volunteers, they do not make any money off the league, and it takes time away from their families. A lot of them are my friends. I make a significant amount of money off the league. Is this wrong? I don't think so, because parents are not obligated to buy my photos, I do not charge the league anything, and I am performing a service. The company that mows the fields makes money off the league, so should I, right? Or does the fact that I am doing it in my own town and my kids are in the league change things? I don't think so. They hired an agency to do it before I came along. Shooting the league has also gotten me referrals for other gigs, just like you, so the volunteerism isn't a factor there.

We bother posting to this because we believe this is bad for the profession. I could see maybe a rank amateur with no experience, a Rebel and a 70-300 doing this for free as a first time thing. Or I could see an accomplished amateur or even pro who is directly involved with the team and invested in its success, like a player's parent. But if the league is not getting this already, and it wants quality shots, they should pay for them.

dbveto · October 15, 2012

This was intended to get some help for a team/organization that I am a fan of not a thread about why someone should not do it? The thread is total moved away from it's intent.
I do know a couple of other photographers that have successful studios and one has even shot a few NFL games because he enjoys it.

jmphotocraft · October 15, 2012

Edited - I suppose it's fair enough to come here looking for a noob or a student who wants to get their feet wet for free. Just don't expect greatness.

johng · October 16, 2012

dbveto wrote: »

This was intended to get some help for a team/organization that I am a fan of not a thread about why someone should not do it? The thread is total moved away from it's intent.
I do know a couple of other photographers that have successful studios and one has even shot a few NFL games because he enjoys it.

Yep - but in order for the team to get that help, it requires a photographer to shoot for free. So, it's completely on-point to discuss the pros/cons of working for free for this type of organization.

This is a discussion forum - not want ads. I think it's great that you posted this in the spirit of helping an organization you like and in the spirit of novices getting some experience. But, I also think it's completely on-topic to discuss the potential down-sides of this particular opportunity. Some things those novices might not be aware of. This forum exists for the benefit of sports photographers not the benefit of businesses or charities. I think it's unfortunate that you can't appreciate discussions on the merits of working for free for an organization like the one under discussion.

johng · October 16, 2012

Forgot to mention something else - you can see from Dennis' post that he assumes liability. For novices considering this - you should make sure you are bonded or have liability insurance for this type of work. Even forgetting sue-happy people, medical treatment is expensive. Even if all an injured player wants is their medical bills covered, can you afford $10,000? Sure, the probability is low someone will get injured as a result of a collision with you. But, in the rare instance it does occur you don't want to lose your house just because you enjoy your hobby.

jmphotocraft · October 16, 2012

johng wrote: »

This is a discussion forum - not want ads.

Indeed, and it's an international forum, not craigslist.

dbveto · October 16, 2012

Johng You are correct. I guess I was surprised at all of the comments against it, I may have just not started with a correct explanation. Most of the Teams I know of don't make any money and the ones that do put it back into the community. The liability may be the wrong way to say it, If I get hurt I am responsible for my own medical.
Like I said earlier this is not necessarily for Noobs/beginers as I have met at least two other photographers that have successful studios and one that has shot NFL (as a fill in).
The Team I shoot for will have between 800-1500 fans at each game most other teams are way less, I do it because I love the game and as a side benefit I have pick up some paid gigs from it.

Yes people have to be careful with this type of shooting 2 years ago I shot indoor for a different team and it was a nightmare with broken promises and having to wait 6 months for money promised to me.

I started this post because I know this teams management and a bunch of their players and they would appreciate any Photographer.

dbveto · October 16, 2012

jmphotocraft wrote: »

Indeed, and it's an international forum, not craigslist.

In my very first post I said I was not sure if this was the correct area to post this there are area where people post items for sale.

johng · October 16, 2012

dbveto wrote: »

Johng The liability may be the wrong way to say it, If I get hurt I am responsible for my own medical..

No, liability is the correct word. If a player gets hurt colliding with YOU, he can sue YOU. You are potentially liable for HIS injuries. Note I say potentially. That's why bonding or liability insurance is a very important consideration for any shooter. Most people think about the risk to themselves being injured. But they often don't think about what happens if someone else gets hurt. And in a collision anything can happen. Just something to be aware of any time you are a photographer shooting from somewhere other than the stands that the general public is located in.

jmphotocraft · October 16, 2012

dbveto wrote: »

In my very first post I said I was not sure if this was the correct area to post this there are area where people post items for sale.

Umm, no you didn't.

dbveto wrote: »

I was contacted by a Team rep asking if I knew anyone so I decided to post here.

Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer, team has been in existence over 20 years. If you don't have experience shooting sports come get some, if you have some experience add this to it. Season is June to October (shooting from the sidelines)with some other opportunity's such as tryouts or player head shots. Come join a team of great individuals in a great organization.
can contact Steve at 708-378-0840the or email at sliwka@att.net

But it's fine. If someone competent at shooting sports wants to shoot your league just for their own enjoyment and experience and as a favor, then more power to you both.

I think sometimes pros' feathers get ruffled when they sense an amateur "stealing" their business, or an organization trying to circumvent their services. But a pro whose work speaks for itself has nothing to worry about.

dbveto · October 16, 2012

jmphotocraft wrote: »

Umm, no you didn't.

Sorry I typed my original post offline then copied and pasted and I must have not had the first line selected.

Photogbiker · October 16, 2012

T. Bombadil wrote: »

Your point about non-profit being different than unprofitable is a good one - except in this case, the OP said it is an all volunteer organization.

"All volunteer" is still not non-profit in the IRS eyes. I seriously doubt a semi-pro football team would qualify as a charitable purpose to attain 501(c)3 status. I could be wrong about this football team, but as you noted the point of my post was just to make people aware of the difference and to maybe dig a bit deeper if they are thinking of donating services to a non-profit (Chicago or elsewhere).

and to the OP, unbunch your undies dude. Every post here has been on point, just because the majority have a different take than your original intention is part of the concept of posting on a "discussion board". JohnG has been precisely on point with every comment, including his last one on liability insurance that you either misunderstood or did not realize you should have (what happens if you are doing headshots and a lightstand tips over and hits someone in the head causing them to get stitches and miss two games? You are on the hook for $$). If another Chicago amateur wanted to join you, they would be smart to heed Johng's advice on bonding and insurance.

That kind of advice from a pro, and other opinions is what this board is for. My comments about non-profit vs. not making a profit similarly addresses your original post. If the same local Chicago shooter wanted to help out a charity and was considering your team, I would suggest they double check if it is truly a charity or just a commercial venture on a thin budget. They may still shoot your team, but they should know all the facts.

As I said in my original post if the "pay" of getting sideline access and being involved with the team is worth it to you (and it sounds like it is) then go for it. I wish you luck and hope to see some of your pics here. I do the same for my kids high school band and drama club. Others have different opinions or thoughts and they have expressed them here very professionally and politely.

dbveto · October 17, 2012

Photogbiker wrote: »

"All volunteer" is still not non-profit in the IRS eyes. I seriously doubt a semi-pro football team would qualify as a charitable purpose to attain 501(c)3 status. I could be wrong about this football team, but as you noted the point of my post was just to make people aware of the difference and to maybe dig a bit deeper if they are thinking of donating services to a non-profit (Chicago or elsewhere).

and to the OP, unbunch your undies dude. Every post here has been on point, just because the majority have a different take than your original intention is part of the concept of posting on a "discussion board". JohnG has been precisely on point with every comment, including his last one on liability insurance that you either misunderstood or did not realize you should have (what happens if you are doing headshots and a lightstand tips over and hits someone in the head causing them to get stitches and miss two games? You are on the hook for $$). If another Chicago amateur wanted to join you, they would be smart to heed Johng's advice on bonding and insurance.

That kind of advice from a pro, and other opinions is what this board is for. My comments about non-profit vs. not making a profit similarly addresses your original post. If the same local Chicago shooter wanted to help out a charity and was considering your team, I would suggest they double check if it is truly a charity or just a commercial venture on a thin budget. They may still shoot your team, but they should know all the facts.

As I said in my original post if the "pay" of getting sideline access and being involved with the team is worth it to you (and it sounds like it is) then go for it. I wish you luck and hope to see some of your pics here. I do the same for my kids high school band and drama club. Others have different opinions or thoughts and they have expressed them here very professionally and politely.

The team I shoot for I do know for sure they are 501(c)3. I initially took the responses in a negative way and in an earlier reply I said Johng was correct. Sorry for the misunderstandings.

T. Bombadil · October 19, 2012

Photogbiker wrote: »

"All volunteer" is still not non-profit in the IRS eyes. I seriously doubt a semi-pro football team would qualify as a charitable purpose to attain 501(c)3 status. . . .

501(c)3 status is not the only way to qualify as non-profit in the eyes of the IRS. It need not be a charitable organization to be non-profit.

You may want to donate your time only to Charities, but there are plenty of other organizations that attract volunteers, and are tax-exempt (not that tax-exempt status is a reason to volunteer).

jhefti · October 19, 2012

Most professional shooters know how to deal with the original request; most amateur shooters could benefit from the experience of shooting these games.

I shot my first couple of professional games and gave away my shots to a major newspaper (that got me the credential in the first place, purely as a favor to me). From this small portfolio I got lots of paid professional gigs--more than I have time to do. This is the simple concept of a loss leader, familiar to most other businesses.

I shoot many events for free, if I am interested and there is no money available to pay a photographer. (These are all youth events, mostly at my kids' school or club teams.) However, one criterion I always apply: if giving away my work displaces another shooter, I don't give it away. End of story.

It sounds like these guys have no money to pay a photographer, so there is no harm in asking for volunteers. It may be a win-win.

dbveto · October 20, 2012

Exactly!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Photogbiker · October 20, 2012

Still waiting to see some photos!

David Evertsen · October 21, 2012

Someone is always getting paid somewhere non profit or not... Once my photos got "Good Enough" I got all sorts of requests, but once I asked for payment or a fee to cover my time.. I moved on and they never replied to my email.. It is a vicious cycle I don't let run my life anymore. If you are having fun more power too you, I learned the hard way someone is always making money...

JBHotShots · October 27, 2012

FWIW NFL, NHL and PGA all file as "non-profit" organizations...figure that out!

Photogbiker · October 27, 2012

FWIW NFL, NHL and PGA all file as "non-profit" organizations...figure that out!

Good point. They are non-profit associations, much different than a not for profit charitable enterprise. A very important distinction if you are inclined to donate your skills to a charity and not just a group that is organized under IRS codes on a non-profit basis. Other associations such as the Chamber of Commerce, Association of Watch Winders, etc. are all generally non-profit and exist only to service their members with serious rules about dues, salaries, and excess revenues. Any cash they do make in excess is distributed back to members who then have to pay taxes on it as income. I would guess the NFL is net money maker and those fees in excess get sent back to team owners who pay taxes---except for maybe Jacksonville....

The NFL has different ways of getting donated pics. "You want credentials for the game? Give me pics, or talk to Vinnie and Bobo over here in our collections department....."

Disclaimer--not an accountant, just someone with a business background and board member/chairman of charities.

Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer

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