Winter Time Foggy Lenses?

novicesnapper

Well, as we approach winter, this came to my mind on any solutions any may have. We tend to keep our house cold, but during blizzards, extreme cold, yes, even in Oklahoma I saw it get to -20 F one winter for 24 hours, we kept it around 50-60F. We were colder than Alaska at that time, brrr. Even with us keeping the house cool in winter, when I would take my equipment out to shoot snow or drifts, or the miles long 18 wheelers just sitting idling, the lens would fog up. It would take 10-15 minutes for it to clear as it met ambient outside. My question is this:
Does or can the sensor fog also? It's my understanding they get warm when the cam is on, not sure if that's true? Secondly, does or can the fogging promote fungal growth inside the lens? or condensation? I know it's a weird question, but just thinking ahead on this...:scratch

Any thoughts would be welcome.

ziggy53

Yes, it's a good idea to avoid exposing cold camera bodies and lenses to condensation. Condensation occurs when a cold surface is introduced to a warmer and more humid environment.

To avoid condensation on equipment, use a bag, even just a camera bag, and allow the equipment inside to temperature equalize. This process can take a couple of hours.

Prior to coming inside you may wish to take out any memory cards and put them into a ziplock baggy. They will warm much more quickly outside of the camera body. You can also place the baggy near a warm air vent, or use a hair dryer on a low setting, in order to speed the process of warming. Setting the baggy in direct sunlight can help too.

If condensation should occur, try to minimize the impact as much as possible by eliminating the condensation and then gently warming the equipment to indoor ambient temperatures. Don't try to store equipment which has condensation, as this can promote mold/mildew/fungus growth.

novicesnapper

Thanks Ziggy. I know last year, and the year before (the really nasty winter), when I would come in from outside, after shooting, I would leave the camera and lenses out of the camera bag overnight, to allow any moisture to evaporate. Even though the fogging was happening when I would go outside, warmer to cooler. I didn't see any condensation spots or fog in them the next day after doing this, when I looked thru the lenses with a Maglight, so they seemed to be fine. I almost cringed to take them outside, even though it was clear, but just so bitter cold. At one point we had 3-4 foot snow drifts and 80 MPH snow blowing. No way I'm going out in that lol. But 36 hours later, it was gorgeous snow everywhere and sunny. I guess it's a judgment call, on the risk to equipment to do this stuff? I have some 75 gram desiccant bags, maybe I need to throw one or two in my camera bag to help pull any moisture from the items, just in case.

ziggy53

novicesnapper wrote: »

... when I would come in from outside, after shooting, I would leave the camera and lenses out of the camera bag overnight, to allow any moisture to evaporate. ...

Like I said, leave your equipment in the closed bag when you come inside, until the equipment has equalized in temperature.

novicesnapper wrote: »

... Even though the fogging was happening when I would go outside, warmer to cooler. ...

Condensation occurs when cold objects encounter warmer and more humid environments.

Outdoors and in cold weather, condensation may occur if the cold camera/lens is exposed to human breath (warmer with lots of humidity) or stored inside a coat, for instance (warmer with greater humidity from perspiration).

Otherwise, a warmer camera/lens will not fog or condense outdoors in Winter except in extremely high humidity conditions like foggy or hoar-frost conditions or similar.

novicesnapper

I understand about the bag, but wouldn't that trap any moisture IN the bag, as the temp equalizes?

I thought I would do some Googling, seems this guy says it does happen when going from warm to colder also.

Condensation is a particularly troublesome problem for photographers. Just like your rear view mirror fogs up when you get inside your car because of your body heat and breathing, condensation can fog up your camera lens and the inside of your camera when temperatures change rapidly. Condensation is water forming on surfaces that are significantly colder or warmer than the surrounding air. Warm house, cold outside? Lens is warm, going out into the cold?
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/cold-weather-photography-tips.html

All I know is, the camera was slightly warmer, than the outside and the lens was fogged, before I put it to my face, because I noticed it right away on the first shot looking through the viewfinder. I even pulled the lens off outside and looked through it and it was fogged. The very first thing I did was look at the objective lens, the outside one, and it was clean externally, so it was not from breathing, it was inside the barrel. I'll see if it happens again, once winter sets in firmly and I'll take some pics if it does.

ETA, I think that part that blew me away, was I knew it would probably fog/ condensate going into the more humid warmer house after being outside, almost guaranteed I imagine, but I didn't expect it to do this going to a low humidity colder outside, from the more humid warmer house. I can't help but wonder if the lens was loaded with humidity from inside the house already, and like breathing and you're breath fogging in the cold air, it fogged inside the barrel when it hit the colder outside? I don't know, but we'll see if it happens again this winter.

ziggy53

novicesnapper wrote: »

I understand about the bag, but wouldn't that trap any moisture IN the bag, as the temp equalizes? ...

As long as you leave the bag sealed when you bring it inside and as long as heating of the bag exceeds air migration into the bag, you should be OK and you should not experience condensation or fogging of the equipment. This assumes a camera bag which seals fairly well to reduce air migration.

For a camera bag with flaps, I suggest putting the camera bag inside of a clean garbage bag outside, and then sealing that before coming inside. Once your inside the house, do not open the garbage bag until the contents equalize in temperature.

novicesnapper wrote: »

... I thought I would do some Googling, seems this guy says it does happen when going from warm to colder also.

Condensation is a particularly troublesome problem for photographers. Just like your rear view mirror fogs up when you get inside your car because of your body heat and breathing, condensation can fog up your camera lens and the inside of your camera when temperatures change rapidly. Condensation is water forming on surfaces that are significantly colder or warmer than the surrounding air. Warm house, cold outside? Lens is warm, going out into the cold?
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/cold-weather-photography-tips.html

All I know is, the camera was slightly warmer, than the outside and the lens was fogged, before I put it to my face, because I noticed it right away on the first shot looking through the viewfinder. I even pulled the lens off outside and looked through it and it was fogged. The very first thing I did was look at the objective lens, the outside one, and it was clean externally, so it was not from breathing, it was inside the barrel. I'll see if it happens again, once winter sets in firmly and I'll take some pics if it does.

ETA, I think that part that blew me away, was I knew it would probably fog/ condensate going into the more humid warmer house after being outside, almost guaranteed I imagine, but I didn't expect it to do this going to a low humidity colder outside, from the more humid warmer house. I can't help but wonder if the lens was loaded with humidity from inside the house already, and like breathing and you're breath fogging in the cold air, it fogged inside the barrel when it hit the colder outside? I don't know, but we'll see if it happens again this winter.

This has to be an observational misconception. If what you say, and that Googled article describes, then sometimes an electric stove top should condense the moisture in the air as it warms. Yet, that never happens.

Condensation always and only occurs when a colder object meets warmer air with moisture. The colder object reduces the relative humidity of the air around it, causing the condensate to occur. There is no similar inverse action.

If you observe a lens to be fogged outdoors, there has to have been some circumstance where the lens was cooled and then placed in a warmer and more humid environment. It does take some time for the lens fog to clear, so that might make it seem like an inverse occurrence.

---

Edit: A possible occurrence of a similar phenomenon might occur if:

1) A lens is stored indoors, where it's warmer and relatively higher humidity (especially if you use a humidifier).
2) Some of that indoor air would be trapped "inside" the lens.
3) The lens is taken outside and into a very cold environment.
4) The outside of the lens cools, including the outermost lens elements.
5) The rapid cooling of the outside lens elements could cause "interior" condensation of the warmer, high humidity air in the lens.
6) This could take some time to clear since the lens traps the air inside the lens.

Is that, perhaps, what you observed?

---

Edit2: ... And now I see your comment in the ETA addition of your message. Yes, I believe that must be what you are observing. I suggest leaving the camera bag of equipment out in an unheated porch, unheated garage or unheated car, for a couple of hours prior to use and under those conditions. That should allow the contents of the bag time to condense any moisture to the inside surface of the outside of the bag, which is better than insides of any of your equipment.

novicesnapper

I think this is exactly what happened Ziggy! Really through me for a loop lol. I was actually more concerned about condensation on the board or sensor of the camera, that really worried me at the time, because I figured the camera was doing the same thing. We don't run a humidifier, but I might have cooked a meal before that, or had the crock pot running and it drove the humidity up in the house. That I can't remember lol. I think that's exactly what happened. Cool, I'm glad this is figured out.

Edit: A possible occurrence of a similar phenomenon might occur if:

1) A lens is stored indoors, where it's warmer and relatively higher humidity (especially if you use a humidifier).
2) Some of that indoor air would be trapped "inside" the lens.
3) The lens is taken outside and into a very cold environment.
4) The outside of the lens cools, including the outermost lens elements.
5) The rapid cooling of the outside lens elements could cause "interior" condensation of the warmer, high humidity air in the lens.
6) This could take some time to clear since the lens traps the air inside the lens.

Is that, perhaps, what you observed?

ETA lol, I want to mention I keep the lenses (not being used) in a freezer ziplock, even inside the camera bag. But I'm positive the lens that fogged, was already attached to the camera, so it was loaded with humidity, even though it was in the camera bag. Great lesson for sure, lmao. Oh and something else, this storm first blew in, and we went from 80's F to just above 0 F in about 18 hours, so humidity was swinging wildly.

davev

If you're real worried about it, throw a couple of moisture absorbing Silica Gel Bags into your camera bag.
I don't do this, but it seems like it would be a good idea.

novicesnapper

davev wrote: »

If you're real worried about it, throw a couple of moisture absorbing Silica Gel Bags into your camera bag.
I don't do this, but it seems like it would be a good idea.

That as my exact thoughts also. What I think I might have done, is pulled the camera and sat it on the kitchen table for a short while, before grabbing and heading outside. Probably long enough for the lens to load up, and walked outside and blam, lol, instant fog. To be honest, I probably need to throw a bag in the lens ziplock bags, to draw any moisture from the lens when I put them in it. Great lesson for me and hopefully to head off problems for others.

Zerodog

I have only had this problem going cold to warm. I take my gear snowboarding often. And sometimes it even gets snow on it.
My procedure is this:
If I got snow on my camera and lens keep it cold. Snow isn't water until it melts. Brush off all snow. Even use a rocket blower on it. I do this when I get back to the truck. I leave my bag in the back of truck and keep it cold. Hitting it with hot air in the truck is not what I want. I put my camera bag in my back room and leave it alone. It isn't heated and I use it as the decompression chamber. The camera comes up to temp slowly. Then I bring it in the house at some point. In general this has always worked perfectly for me. If I want to get memory cards I do it fast. I want to keep the cold in the bag and keep the camera cold. Condensation happens very fast if you pull your camera out of the bag and set it on counter in your house.

If you have problems going from warm to cold, try keeping your camera in a colder part of your house before you go out.. Or when transporting in your car don't let it sit by the heater. Put it in the truck.

novicesnapper

Thanks Ziggy and Zerodog. I will certainly be doing things differently this winter, as well as using dissecant. Great info in this thread for sure.

jasonstone

Hmmm has anyone had first had experience of this condensation causing problems?
I see soooo many people go in and out of the snow and then use camera in and out - not sure about hours on end though...

i've got to solve it better this year too as spending more time with camera out in backpack when skiing all day and also going to Laplap (arctic circle) for xmas - so i'm going to want to take photos when dog sledding etc and then be able to take them when i'm back in side pretty quickly

how to solve that problem? a few hours out in the cold then back inside and wanting (nay needing!) to take photos quickly of the kids???

thanks
Jase

ziggy53

jasonstone wrote: »

... how to solve that problem? a few hours out in the cold then back inside and wanting (nay needing!) to take photos quickly of the kids??? ...

The very best way is to use 2 - camera/lens systems; an outdoor system and an indoor system. You would only bring the batteries and memory cards of the outdoor system indoors for servicing.

The single-digit Canon and Nikon bodies are best for the outdoor system, as they are designed for a wider range of operating conditions. In the worst conditions you'll still want to moderate the storage temperatures of the outdoor system, as no camera is designed for some of the extremes you may encounter.

Likewise with lenses. Moderation is the key, whenever possible.

I believe that in true arctic conditions Canon and Nikon may even offer special CLA for ultra-cold conditions.

If you don't own what you need, consider equipment rental.

Matthew Saville

Yeah, this isn't just a problem in icy cold winters, it is also a problem in steamy hot summers. Say for example you are from dry, sunny So Cal or Arizona. You go to a family reunion in the middle of the summer in Oaklahoma or Texas. The humidity is insane, so you stay inside most of the time with the AC cranked. But when you go outside for an early morning sunrise shoot, WHAM- everything fogs up. Even thhough you could barely keep it below 80 degrees indoors, the cooled-overnight camera meeting the early morning hot, humid air is no bueno.

Just something to keep in mind for next summer, after you safely make it through this winter! (Or, for our friends below the equator? :-P


=Matt=

jasonstone

ziggy53 wrote: »

The very best way is to use 2 - camera/lens systems; an outdoor system and an indoor system. You would only bring the batteries and memory cards of the outdoor system indoors for servicing.

Unfortunately it's hard enough carrying one system and a tripod let alone two, and I'm going to have to carry bags upon bags as it's a family holiday and the kiddies don't lug there own weight (yet!) So that's out of the question for me. Besides outdoors it's likely to be well below zero Fahrenheit - i suspect likely even below -20degF

ziggy53 wrote: »

The single-digit Canon and Nikon bodies are best for the outdoor system, as they are designed for a wider range of operating conditions. In the worst conditions you'll still want to moderate the storage temperatures of the outdoor system, as no camera is designed for some of the extremes you may encounter.

I have a D7000 which at least has some weather sealing although the lenses don't
It's likely not to be wet - mainly a bit of snow - it's more the inside to outside difference that's the killer

ziggy53 wrote: »

I believe that in true arctic conditions Canon and Nikon may even offer special CLA for ultra-cold conditions.

What is CLA?

ziggy53 wrote: »

If you don't own what you need, consider equipment rental.

Alas a dearth of rental opportunities here in Switzerland - just not the market for it like in the US

Thanks a heap for the info though - i'm trying to find a better/useful/possible way to shoot regularly inside and out without screwing my camera up

ziggy53

jasonstone wrote: »

Unfortunately it's hard enough carrying one system and a tripod let alone two, and I'm going to have to carry bags upon bags as it's a family holiday and the kiddies don't lug there own weight (yet!) So that's out of the question for me. Besides outdoors it's likely to be well below zero Fahrenheit - i suspect likely even below -20degF
...

This sounds like more of a "family vacation" than a "serious photo opportunity". As such, you need to decide where you will use what and when you will use it.

Whatever you use outdoors will not be available shortly after you bring it indoors. It will need some time to acclimate, and I recommend allowing 2 hours with the equipment stored in a zippered bag.

jasonstone wrote: »

... I have a D7000 which at least has some weather sealing although the lenses don't
It's likely not to be wet - mainly a bit of snow - it's more the inside to outside difference that's the killer
...

Understood. I suggest bringing a "rugged" P&S that will serve pretty well outdoors, and leave the D7000 and lenses for the indoors stuff.

Something like a Panasonic DMC-TS3 would do nicely for many outdoor and difficult environmental conditions.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q311waterproofcompactgrouptest/4

jasonstone wrote: »

... What is CLA? ...

Clean, Lubricate and Adjust = CLA

For extreme conditions I believe that there are special lubricants to reduce undue ultra cold weather failure.

jasonstone wrote: »

... i'm trying to find a better/useful/possible way to shoot regularly inside and out without screwing my camera up

The only thing I can recommend is using the right equipment for the right purposes, and using the proper techniques and procedures.

If you can't afford the time to wait for your equipment to properly temperature equalize, you risk condensation when the colder camera/lens meets the warmer moister environments (like indoors in the winter.) That's just the "nature" of the problem.

Using a separate camera/lens for each location is the only quick method that I know of to accommodate your wishes.

paddler4

If you're real worried about it, throw a couple of moisture absorbing Silica Gel Bags into your camera bag.
I don't do this, but it seems like it would be a good idea.

yes, but silica gel does not last very long--that is, it gets saturated and hence useless fairly quickly. Moreover, you can't easily tell. For that reason, I now only use the Pelican silica gel containers. They have a colorant that changes from orange to clear when the silica gel is saturated, and they can be recharged (dried out) by putting them in an oven.

It seems to me that a plastic bag, if reasonably sealed, is better for this than a camera bag because most camera bags are to some extent insulated (foam is a very good insulator), which would slow down the process of bringing the camera to the appropriate temperature. I have not tested this, however, and would be happy to be contradicted if anyone knows better.

Condensation always and only occurs when a colder object meets warmer air with moisture. The colder object reduces the relative humidity of the air around it, causing the condensate to occur.

I think the first is correct, but the second isn't, if I remember my physics from years ago. If I recall correctly: Relative humidity is the ratio of actual vapor density to saturation vapor density (the amount of water in the air divided by the amount the air can hold). Cool air can hold less water than warm air. So, when you bring something cold (say, a camera, or your glasses) into warm air, the air in contact with the object gets colder, saturation density decreases, and relative humidity increases. When it reaches 1, the dew point, condensation starts because that water can no longer be held in the air. At least, I think so.

ziggy53

ziggy53 wrote: »

... Condensation always and only occurs when a colder object meets warmer air with moisture. The colder object reduces the relative humidity of the air around it, causing the condensate to occur. ...

paddler4 wrote: »

... I think the first is correct, but the second isn't, if I remember my physics from years ago. If I recall correctly: Relative humidity is the ratio of actual vapor density to saturation vapor density (the amount of water in the air divided by the amount the air can hold). Cool air can hold less water than warm air. So, when you bring something cold (say, a camera, or your glasses) into warm air, the air in contact with the object gets colder, saturation density decreases, and relative humidity increases. When it reaches 1, the dew point, condensation starts because that water can no longer be held in the air. At least, I think so.

You are absolutely correct, of course. thumb

novicesnapper

This explains what happened to me. A sealed shipping container, loaded with humidity, and suddenly subjected to cooler less humid air. Think of the lens as a sealed container. Would the air fog before this happened and condensate on the outside cooler elements?, apparently it can, as this happened to me. I agree with Ziggy Josh, a nice point and shoot may be safer. I have seen some powershot pictures that really surprised me.

Problems Of Shipping By Container

Container shipping seems straightforward but shippers must be aware that moisture and condensation can be a problem.




So-called Container Sweat happens when the skin of the container is cooled to a temperature below that of the dew point of the air enclosed within the container (my note> my humid lens, going from saturated warm inside to relativity cold dry outside), resulting in the formation of water droplets on the interior roof and side panels. This water then drips down on the cargo causing mould and water damage.
http://suite101.com/article/problems-of-shipping-by-container-a340572

babowc

I leave my camera in the trunk and bring it in to my house in the bag..
it worked well, so far.

I guess it helps that my house stays pretty chilly during the winter!

davev

Every year this comes up, and every year I say, you guys are nuts.
I don't do anything special, I take the camera and lens, sometimes in a camera bag, sometimes not, from my warm house to my car, and drive to where I'm shooting.
I shoot in sub zero temps for hours, put the camera back into the car, drive home, bring camera, with or without bag into the house.

So far, no problems.

YMMV.

Question: Has anyone that commented in this thread ever ruined a camera or lens by using it in the cold?
I know I haven't.
With 6 months of winter in Minnesota, I've had lots of opportunities to.

jasonstone

Same question I asked!

Hmmm has anyone had first had experience of this condensation causing problems?

davev wrote: »

Question: Has anyone that commented in this thread ever ruined a camera or lens by using it in the cold? I know I haven't.
With 6 months of winter in Minnesota, I've had lots of opportunities to.

Art Scott

what I do... as I am out in the weather a lot, rain, snow, cold, warmth, warmth to cold and vice versa.... ...

I use these (LINK) in the winter time to help keep equipment from fogging and also to lengthen the battery life in cold times ... also if you're not using the camera at night or just before going to bed, put camera in car trunk or somewhere it will be safe over night, keep the batteries indoors, recharging or just to stay warm.... the camera will not condense outdoors this way...when going in, keep it sealed in a plastic ziplock bag (gallon sized for cam body and one for lens) and in a closed camera case for a couple of hours... ... I have yet to have a camera or lens have problems... most of the time I forgo the plastic ziplock baggie and just zip camera into my camera bag and leave it closed for a couple of hours ...that way it slowly heats to room temp and no condensation, but they go into my car at night in camera bag for early morning use ...

ziggy53

davev wrote: »

... Question: Has anyone that commented in this thread ever ruined a camera or lens by using it in the cold?
I know I haven't.
With 6 months of winter in Minnesota, I've had lots of opportunities to.

A new thread relating to how a camera or lens may be damaged in extreme cold is here:

http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=228431