SB-910 Frustrations

SciurusNiger

Since I am again working as a campaign photographer this season, to reduce my dependency on the D70's onboard flash during indoor events, I finally broke down and bought a Nikon SB-910 flash for the D2Xs last winter. Used it a lot and have loved its "help" ... until a big event earlier this week.

It was the kind of event where I needed consistent flash rather quickly and it just wasn't happening. Sure, using lithium batteries kicked butt but inevitably the SB-910 slowed down and then would shut down due to overheating. Swapping out two sets of batteries helped, but what a wonky, shot-missing way to have to work.

I am also not happy with the non-flash shots that were done deliberately. The D2Xs doesn't play well above ISO 400 but while the in-camera preview looked great, opening some of them in PS found them essentially unusable due to severe underexposure. (Difference was some of the people were better ambient-lit than others but why then such a huge difference in the in-camera preview?)

My sneaking suspicion is that it's me, not necessarily my equipment. So those of you who shoot indoor events that have a lot of fast-moving characters, particularly Nikon users, how do you manage? Recent improvements in high ISO have me planning to buy a new body but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. And that still doesn't answer the question of how people managed successfully with what I am using now (meaning, what am I doing wrong).

TIA for any insights or general thoughts you may have,
PJ.

Mitchell

Can you post some examples?

As a former D2X owner, I'm not sure how you are implying that "others" with your gear got good shots indoors with no flash. I rarely ventured above ISO 400 with that body. The noise just made the photos unuseable. It's not you, it's just the limitation of what is just an old technology camera.

The move to FX and my D700 and above was liberating. I can confidently leave my flash at home for many venues and routinely shoot at ISO6400 with little concern.

I cannot speak to your flash overheating problem. I have stuck with my SB800s for this reason.

perroneford

What are you doing wrong? Honestly, it sounds like you're shooting everything that moves. This work used to be done with single flash cubes and 36 exposure roll film. Slow down, and take meaningful photos. Pick your spots. No one wants to have your flash in their face 10 times a minute. I absolutely HATE doing event work, but when I do it, I use a good, high-ISO body. That keeps my flash power very low and allows ambient to fill in quite a bit. It means my flash recycles faster, and things look more natural.

You also need to examine why you have such a discrepancy between your LCD and your final images. Are you shooting RAW or JPG? Shooting RAW should give you all the flexibility you need. Particularly in lightroom.

When I do this, it's typically on a D7000 or D800, with a Gary Fong Lightsphere on my Sunpak flash with LiOn batteries. It's worked well enough for me.

Best of luck.

SciurusNiger

Thanks, Ziggy. I didn't mean to imply that others used the D2Xs without a flash; people did use it with a flash and got good results. At least perhaps better overall results than I feel I got the other night. I'll try to post some examples later.

perroneford, point well-taken but at these types of events things tend to happen quickly enough that even careful selection requires being able to "ready, aim, fire" in very short order. It is something I am very used to doing with wildlife so politicians and their followers aren't all that different. What is different is the light limitation at some of these events (including my flash) and obviously it's a learning curve for me.

I do shoot RAW and only RAW. As both of you have pointed out, there are decided ISO limitations with the D2Xs and I've learned to compensate by lowering EV a bit to give me a little more flexibility during PP. Was just very surprised at the difference between in-camera and PS this time. Not sure where to begin examing that one, though (I delete photos from the camera upon download but could do some tests).

At the end of the day, I do know another body is needed but that's a whole 'nother discussion, especially since I don't give a hoot about having video capabilities.

PJ.

ziggy53

SciurusNiger wrote: »

Thanks, Ziggy. I didn't mean to imply that others used the D2Xs without a flash; people did use it with a flash and got good results. At least perhaps better overall results than I feel I got the other night. I'll try to post some examples later. ...

You owe Mitch, big time. (But I'm flattered.)

---

How are you using the flash? Direct? With an omni-modifier, like a Light-Sphere or a St-Fen?

How wide a lens are you covering?

Mitchell

ziggy53 wrote: »

You owe Mitch, big time. (But I'm flattered.)

I was channeling my best "Ziggy"

Mitchell

Lowering your EV is only going to increase your noise in your D2Xs shots as you go to higher ISO.

I've covered plenty of events with my D2Xs and an SB800 on a bracket usually with a lightsphere. The images are usually quite good. Are you making sure that your flash is fully powered and ready to fire before each shot? I've noted underexposed images if I was inpatient and didn't let the flash fully cycle.

You can't get caught up on what you see in the lcd. When shooting RAW, the camera just creates a small jpg to display which uses the in camera settings for the display. These are not applied to the RAW files.

divamum

Mitchell wrote: »

I was channeling my best "Ziggy"

Best quote of the day.....

Qarik

The SB910 has been shown to not over heat..I can sit there and manually fire it at full strength as fast it can recharge..for minutes at a time. Do you mean the SB900?

Zerodog

You still need to push a 900 pretty hard to make it overheat. It always seems to overheat when I am shooting bikini clad ring girls at fight weigh ins........
I am sure the 910 is improved in this way.

To the OP, the thing you will benefit the most from with a newer body is ISO capability. Video isn't even offered on a D700.

And yes my vote is, slow down, choose a shot, make a shot. No need to blast away at a political event. It is not like you are shooting an action event. Use some sort of modifier to help smooth out your flash if you can't bounce. I like the Lumiquest products and the flash bender. You will get much more consistant results this way. I have never tried lithium batteries. I am a huge fan of the sanyo eneloops. I use a flash constantly shooting Motorcycle events. And have rarely had my 900 overheat. Mostly that ends up being related to modifiers that block off the air getting to the flash head too cool it.

SciurusNiger

Well, slap my ass with a hairless cat. Mitch, my apologies for calling you Ziggy. (Though admittedly there are far worse things to call someone, like late for dinner, yes?)

Thanks to all for your thoughts.

I'm using the flash mounted directly on top of the D2Xs. I've learned to put the diffuser on when my subject is close (e.g. informal portraits); I pull it off when shooting at a distance. That is the extent of my lighting technique to date since I most often use natural light. (I did mention I have a learning curve here so will be looking up the various modifier mentions.)

For most of the "walk around" work I use my old Nikor AFS 18mm-70mm 4.5; for speakers I use the Nikor 80mm-200mm 2.8 on the tripod but when possible will also pan around and take shots of audience members.

Since I'm most used to chasing 4-legged animals in daylight I am guilty of sometimes not letting the flash recycle. (But those I normally catch.) This last event was the first time I used lithium batteries (they are advertised as lasting "8 times longer" in electronic equipment like cameras and such) and they were like regular AA batteries on steroids as far as light output when fresh (at least it felt that way). But they got very hot quite quickly and even when the SB-910 indicated it had recycled, it didn't always flash (why I'm thinking it overheated); not sure I'll use them again for something like this.

Definitely need a newer body if this kind of work continues. Just don't know what, but since I can't afford it yet there's plenty of time to figure it out.

I'll be working on this last shoot over the weekend and will post some examples then. If you want to see what I've been doing, the galleries are HERE.

Thanks,
PJ.

perroneford

YOu know a thought struck me. If you sold that D2Xs, you could get into a used D90 for a couple hundred bucks more. That would buy you at least a stop, maybe 1.5 stops over what you have now. That's about as cheap an upgrade as I can think of. Yes, the build quality and feel are going to be TOTALLY different, but the jump to the next pro body is HUGE as you well know. A used D7000 might not be outside the realm of possibility either as even new they are selling below $1k, and you could probably get half that for your current camera.

divamum

SciurusNiger wrote: »

Well, slap my ass with a hairless cat. Mitch, my apologies for calling you Ziggy. (Though admittedly there are far worse things to call someone, like late for dinner, yes?)

Second-best quote of the day....

Sorry, as a Canonite no help at all with Nikon equipment, although reading the replies it definitely sounds like you're going to gain by upgrading the body so it can offer you some high ISO choices. Good luck whatever you decide!

williaes

Below is some quick info on battery use for the 910. I don't know if any of that will help on the flash issues. I can't help you on the ISO problem. I shot a lot of events in low light and don't have very many issue using good glass. Note that the recycling time is faster with Ni-MH battery.

Recycling Time (rated)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
2.3 sec. with Ni-MH (2600 mAh) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
3.0 sec. with Oxyride™ (1.5V) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
4.0 sec. with Alkaline-manganese (1.5V) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
4.5 sec. with Lithium (1.5V) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Battery</st1:place> Life <o:p></o:p>
These are the number of full-power dumps Nikon claims you can get if you wait as long as 30 seconds for it to recycle. In actual automatic use, you'll get thousands of flashes depending on your distance, since less power is used for each pop. <o:p></o:p>
110 shots with throw-away Alkaline.<o:p></o:p>
165 shots with 2,000 mAh <o:p></o:p>
190 with 2,600mAh Ni-MH, the kind that run down in a week if you don't use them.<o:p></o:p>
230 with AA Lithium, but only that much if you give the SB-910 as much as two minutes to recycle at the end!

Credit
Kenrockewell.com

SciurusNiger

Good thought, perroneford. But since the D2Xs is now N -2 and therefore essentially worthless, especially second-hand, and since it still works phenomenally for outdoor shooting (and indoors when my subject is immobile or relatively immobile, like baby wildlife or posing humans) I may as well keep it. I still have a D70, too, and it did a decent job for me before I bought the SB-910 for the D2Xs; I should probably just remember to take it along as a backup for now.

PJ.

perroneford wrote: »

YOu know a thought struck me. If you sold that D2Xs, you could get into a used D90 for a couple hundred bucks more. That would buy you at least a stop, maybe 1.5 stops over what you have now. That's about as cheap an upgrade as I can think of. Yes, the build quality and feel are going to be TOTALLY different, but the jump to the next pro body is HUGE as you well know. A used D7000 might not be outside the realm of possibility either as even new they are selling below $1k, and you could probably get half that for your current camera.

SciurusNiger

Wow. This is some really interesting and good information! I've been to Ken's site many times; never thought to look at battery reviews. Time for another visit.

As far as glass, I only use Nikon so that's not an issue.

PJ.

williaes wrote: »

Below is some quick info on battery use for the 910. I don't know if any of that will help on the flash issues. I can't help you on the ISO problem. I shot a lot of events in low light and don't have very many issue using good glass. Note that the recycling time is faster with Ni-MH battery.

Recycling Time (rated)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
2.3 sec. with Ni-MH (2600 mAh) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
3.0 sec. with Oxyride™ (1.5V) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
4.0 sec. with Alkaline-manganese (1.5V) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
4.5 sec. with Lithium (1.5V) batteries.<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Battery</st1:place> Life <o:p></o:p>
These are the number of full-power dumps Nikon claims you can get if you wait as long as 30 seconds for it to recycle. In actual automatic use, you'll get thousands of flashes depending on your distance, since less power is used for each pop. <o:p></o:p>
110 shots with throw-away Alkaline.<o:p></o:p>
165 shots with 2,000 mAh <o:p></o:p>
190 with 2,600mAh Ni-MH, the kind that run down in a week if you don't use them.<o:p></o:p>
230 with AA Lithium, but only that much if you give the SB-910 as much as two minutes to recycle at the end!

Credit
Kenrockewell.com