athlete banners_copied

Chasky

Thanks for checking out the thread. It's probably going to be a long one...

I have been making these 6'x2' vinyl athlete banners you see on the attached image for almost three years now. I run a pretty successful studio in a smaller community where sports are very highly regarded and successful. I thought when I developed these banners, they were something I had never seen done at the high school level and only similar to the blown up photos you might see at colleges. It basically comes down to a "formula" to make them when it comes to the design/printing at this point.

All but one of the banners in the attached image are ones that I had made in my first year of producing them. It was exactly one year later that I walked into one of the gyms of the high school my studio is based in and saw the gymnastics banners that are in the top left of the attached image. Those are not mine. They were made by a competing photographer based in the same town - same dimensions/material/imaging and they were making them within my target market. Of course I was upset, but I figured there wasn't much I could do about it.

Now going into my third year of producing these, they have been refined and I have been trying new things, but many times it comes down to the same design on the 6x2' vinyl banner. I was recently informed that yet another photographer based in the same town as I am is promoting "sports banners" that match mine even more so than the first ones that were copied. I work with almost all sports for the HS where my studio is based and these have been spreading like crazy to other area schools. So far, these two other photographers have only produced these banners in the two instances I have mentioned, but the most recent one is now promoting them as a poduct they produce.

Does anybody have any feedback on this? I'm always reading/being told to ignore it, but I opened my studio when I was 20 and have worked very hard to come up with unique products/photos so I am having a really hard time just sitting back and watching this happen. As a side note, the copying goes beyond these banners. I will post images/updates to my business facebook and within days I will see something similar being posted and promoted on theirs. I literally have a timeline of this happening, but the banners to me, are the most personal.

Does anyone think I could have a copyright case with the banners or is it to vague? And I know I am possibly just too close to the situation and taking it too personally, I understand there will always be competition, but I just thought this was too much and was looking for some feedback.

THANKS!

perroneford

Yes, you have grounds to sue. The ideas you have are not protectable. The execution of those ideas most certainly are. Be forewarned, if you pursue this you may never work in your small town again. I'd still pursue it though.

http://www.pdnonline.com/news/Rihanna-Settles-Laws-3825.shtml

Chasky

Thank you for your response. I am considering just sending each of the photographers a private email to inform them that any creation and promotion of banners similar to the ones I have been producing is copyright infringement and that if it continues I would be prepared to take them to court. I don't want to come off as insecure or anything, but I don't want it to continue so I'm thinking a private note is the best route before any real legal action? Would it be beneficial to explain the clear history of execution of this banner type and that's why it is copyright infringement or should I just leave it be that it is and that they should cease?

perroneford

Honestly, in your shoes, I'd speak to an attorney first, and then have the attorney draft a letter. This might cost you a few bucks, but I can guarantee you the response will be different.

Chasky

I just started putting together my screen grabs and photos and was getting ready to draft an email for my attorney to look at. Thank you for the feedback. I am happy to know that I'm not way out of bounds on this thinking. Thanks again.

Mike J

Not a lawyer and don't know what can/can't be protected in this case but I'm interested in finding out what you learn after meeting with your attorney...

Bryce Wilson

If they aren't using images you have taken and the process for making these banners isn't proprietary, I don't see how you can have a case here.

I'm not an attorney, so certainly don't take my word for it, but I just don't see how a banner layout can be copyright protected.

Look, Big Boy was making the Big Boy sandwich long before McDonald's started selling Big Mac's. They are essentially the same hamburger sandwich, just marketed in a different manner with different names. No lawsuit there either.

Mike J

Bryce Wilson wrote: »

If they aren't using images you have taken and the process for making these banners isn't proprietary, I don't see how you can have a case here.

I'm not an attorney, so certainly don't take my word for it, but I just don't see how a banner layout can be copyright protected.

Look, Big Boy was making the Big Boy sandwich long before McDonald's started selling Big Mac's. They are essentially the same hamburger sandwich, just marketed in a different manner with different names. No lawsuit there either.

I would tend to agree with this but will defer to those that really know... my thought is what are your trying to protect? The vinyl banner product itself or the look of the banner?

Everyone has poster templates (product) and everyone copies Joel Grime's lighting techniques (look). Again, please post after talking to your attorney.

Chasky

Bryce, I totally see what you are saying and that's what made me just ignore it initially. My thought is there has to be some sort of difference between copying a photography technique to create a different image from copying a photography based production. It's not the actual photos I'm worried about, it's the final product that is being created with them. The banners are specifically 6'x2' on vinyl with a predominant headshot and a smaller action shot including the athlete and school name/always dealing with the same subject matter.

The part you've got me stuck on is "everyone has poster templates." Probably like the other similar mention of everyone has a process to make a burger. Then again, what if I was a painter who developed a series of paintings that always used the same dimensions/material to work on and my specialty was painting personalities/occupations and I always included a close up face and a full body figure with text that always described the person in the painting. If someone started painting on the same material/dimensions and just switched which types of personalities that were in the paintings, surely that would be copyright protected, or perhaps not? What I am getting at is that it is a pretty specific process and final product that has at least a two year established history (I've made hundreds of them like this).

I know it's very sticky and that's why I never got any further than just looking at the "copied" banners and groaning. When I saw these newest banners by the other photographer that are even closer to the ones I've been making, I just thought I better check into it. I appreciate the varied feedback and honestly that is what I was expecting. I'm sending an email to my attorney to get their thoughts, but my guess is it will be a muddled answer that won't really give me anything solid or it will be a flat no, these are not copyright protected.

T. Bombadil

Chasky wrote: »

Then again, what if I was a painter who developed a series of paintings that always used the same dimensions/material to work on and my specialty was painting personalities/occupations and I always included a close up face and a full body figure with text that always described the person in the painting. If someone started painting on the same material/dimensions and just switched which types of personalities that were in the paintings, surely that would be copyright protected, or perhaps not? What I am getting at is that it is a pretty specific process and final product that has at least a two year established history (I've made hundreds of them like this).

My opinion (i'm not an attorney), the advice (and your decision) to contact your attorney is good - but don't expect much satisfaction.

Recognize that you are experiencing the 'sincerest form of flattery' and let that boost your ego a bit (you really are the best photog in town if everybody else wants to be just like you).

Scott293

Chasky wrote: »

Bryce, I totally see what you are saying and that's what made me just ignore it initially. My thought is there has to be some sort of difference between copying a photography technique to create a different image from copying a photography based production. It's not the actual photos I'm worried about, it's the final product that is being created with them. The banners are specifically 6'x2' on vinyl with a predominant headshot and a smaller action shot including the athlete and school name/always dealing with the same subject matter.

The part you've got me stuck on is "everyone has poster templates." Probably like the other similar mention of everyone has a process to make a burger. Then again, what if I was a painter who developed a series of paintings that always used the same dimensions/material to work on and my specialty was painting personalities/occupations and I always included a close up face and a full body figure with text that always described the person in the painting. If someone started painting on the same material/dimensions and just switched which types of personalities that were in the paintings, surely that would be copyright protected, or perhaps not? What I am getting at is that it is a pretty specific process and final product that has at least a two year established history (I've made hundreds of them like this).

I know it's very sticky and that's why I never got any further than just looking at the "copied" banners and groaning. When I saw these newest banners by the other photographer that are even closer to the ones I've been making, I just thought I better check into it. I appreciate the varied feedback and honestly that is what I was expecting. I'm sending an email to my attorney to get their thoughts, but my guess is it will be a muddled answer that won't really give me anything solid or it will be a flat no, these are not copyright protected.

After viewing your website and Facebook I wouldn't worry at all!!!...Great stuff

dsp

Copyright doesn't protect ideas, concepts, processes, methods, etc. As long as they aren't using your photos there is no copyright violation here. Patents are what protects those things. I'd be surprised if there aren't a lot of people doing something similar, maybe not exactly the same, but close.
I think all you can do is do it better than the people copying you, improve the concept and stay a step ahead, it'll become obvious who's leading the pack.

Chasky

Thanks Scott!

dsp... I'm not talking about the idea or process. I am talking about that final banner as a whole - the material, the dimensions, and the actual art on it (the physical product). The process and method to making them is irrelevant at this point - I've established a finished product that has been produced multiple times over a period of time.

That being said... Patents did come up in one of my discussions.

I do not think I will be pursuing this any further. I sent an email to my attorney just to gather his thoughts, in case it becomes a problem in the future so that I know where I stand, but that's probably about as far as it will get. After I thought about it, as annoying as it is, I don't think it's worth the legal fees and publicity/scrutiny it may cause within the town if another photographer were to push against it. I also don't think that either photographer will gain business they don't already have simply with the promotion of the banners. Those are just my thoughts at this point, having gotten past the initial shock of it and realizing that it's just a lot of murkiness I'd be headed into if I tried to pursue it.

I appreciate all the feedback. I've removed the image from the OP.

Thanks Again!

dsp

Chasky wrote: »

Thanks Scott!

dsp... I'm not talking about the idea or process. I am talking about that final banner as a whole - the material, the dimensions, and the actual art on it (the physical product). The process and method to making them is irrelevant at this point - I've established a finished product that has been produced multiple times over a period of time.

The banner as a whole is the idea and/or concept. I included the other factors just as a measure of completeness. I didn't mean to imply all those factors applied here. Your exact banner is copyrightable, the concept (size, layout, material, etc) of such a banner is not. Just like the contents of a book are protected by copyright, but the format of the book itself is not.

Dr Calohandre

I've gotten into this after your decision not to sue and will tell you that your case for a suit, while it might have had some self-satisfaction I can tell you from experience you would have just spent a lot of money and gotten nothing or the effort. I used to design and sell specialty T-Shirts. These were quite unique designs and before everybody and their brother decided to play copycat, I made some decent coin. It's not that the copycats aren't in violation: they are. It is that in pursuing them as they change their basement operations from place to place and change names every other day...the pursuit becomes the dog chasing its tail.

Be flattered they liked your design so much and let it go for peace of mind. Sucks beans but that's life sometimes..

johng

Yep - drop it. If your case had merit, none of us would be able to produce trading cards - the first person to do so would be th e only one to do it. Same theory - someone using same type of stock, same dimensions, same poses even - and same backgrounds. Sorry. You were a visionary - but your competition has caught up to you. Just like people selling fatheads/wall clings. They were a big thing a couple years back. Now everyone can do them. Kudos for being ahead of the competition - now that they've caught up to you, time to figure out a new product/service that keeps giving you an edge.

Sam

Chasky,

I had a look at your website and you are doing some nice work. Just continue to do your best, work on the business relationships with the schools and you will be fine.

Don't worry about the imitators.

Sam

Chasky

The trading card scenario makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the input everyone!